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<kanzure>
specifically the weirdness is this one: "Blocksize should have an effect on orphaning, that's how miners can make sure that no absurdly big blocks get mined. Without the blocksize limit that is what would keep blocks smaller (until better block propagation software arises)."
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<kanzure>
not completely sure i have the right overview of orphaning in my last two comments.
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<el33th4x0r>
this discussion needs some metrics. Ittay and I defined some in the NG paper (http://arxiv.org/pdf/1510.02037.pdf). of particular concern here is "fairness"
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<el33th4x0r>
we'd expect the orphan rate observed by miners to vary depending on miner's network speed as well as hash power. a small miners is always going to be at a disadvantage compared to a large miner, because the latter has a higher probability of building on his own block.
<el33th4x0r>
the question is, how big are these differences? are they worth worrying about? or are they in the noise compared to the already inherent variance?
<kanzure>
inherent variance noise is surely not a factor when smaller miners can't broadcast/publish/upload quickly enough. in the case of weak blocks, the problem is just flipped around and the smaller miner has trouble downloading all the big weak blocks.
<kanzure>
(although there are definitely some benefits to flipping the problem around, it's just not necessarily a solution of the problem at hand)
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<kanzure>
i wonder if you could do global high-bandwidth radio broadcast of big weak blocks.......
<kanzure>
where is jgarzik's satellite company when you need him? bah
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<kanzure>
jcorgan: poke
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<kanzure>
oh i guess that would have to limit bitcoin devices to those that have giant antennaes connected to their local network... but that might be okay. i have always wanted an excuse to increase the number of giant antennaes everywhere.
<midnightmagic>
bitcoin price stopped rising and it was no longer realistic, i think
<kanzure>
i am going to prefer the alternative version of events in my head, like "elon musk said so"
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<kanzure>
el33th4x0r: in particular i mean that weak blocks definitely help the bandwidth requirement be less spikey and more normalized (if that's the right word)
<jcorgan>
kanzure: yes?
<kanzure>
a graph theoretic person (maybe amiller) should study whether there are 5,000-node graph structures for the bitcoin network where a single node at any location could selectively impede bandwidth from some miner and dramatically decrease chances of that miner getting a block.
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<kanzure>
jcorgan: hi, yes, i was wondering about prospcts for giant worldwide radio broadcast of big weak blocks. and sdr receiver antennaes everywhere. to route around bandwidth asymmetries on current interwebs.
<el33th4x0r>
yeah what happened to the microsatellite idea?
<midnightmagic>
mapping such a graph would require a sybil'ing the network and is thus unethical to study
<kanzure>
midnightmagic: no i mean fake graph
<kanzure>
midnightmagic: like, feasability
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<jcorgan>
kanzure: three ways to do it
<jcorgan>
via satellite, see BitSat project
<kanzure>
and what about noise/interference/pirates
<jcorgan>
via terrestrial piggybacking, see Finnish project to send blocks via program stream in DTV signals
<jcorgan>
via dedicated broadcast for metro area, see gr-bitcoin with gnuradio
<el33th4x0r>
kanzure: NG distributes the bandwidth usage more evenly over time. weak blocks aren't as good at doing the same -- they seem open to abuse.
<el33th4x0r>
jcorgan: we have student teams build microsatellites and they go up for free on certain launches. the difficulty seems to lie with radio freqs, at least, that's what they said.
<jcorgan>
true, but Dunvegan (jgarzik) has scoped out many of the issues and has plans underway for a stack of 3 cubesat
<el33th4x0r>
cool.
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<jcorgan>
i don't know whatever happened to the DVB-T broadcast project. Last I heard they had some proof of concept working but the cost to actually broadcast was something like 2K USD per month to add their MPEG TS stream to a real station. Would have covered much of Finland and Sweden, I think.
<jcorgan>
the receiver would have been one of those RTL-based DVB-T receivers (10 USD), and the idea was that vending machines, etc., could cheaply receive the block chain and only use costly bandwidth for admin
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<rusty>
jcorgan: AFAIK Dungvan folded. I thought it overly ambitious anyway; we don't want a group of three cubesats, we want many sats at completely independent launches. I felt a simple broadcast of block headers gives you 90% of the benefit, and can fit in a small unit which you can pay other cubesats to carry for you (thereby dropping their costs).
<jcorgan>
i wasn't aware. i consulted for them on the radio link parameters and ground station requirements, but haven't been involved for at least a year
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<kr00k>
Hi everyone!
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<maaku>
there are student designed cubesats going up every year on government subsidy
<maaku>
haveing a plug-in block header relay module would be very inexpensive
<rusty>
maaku: exactly. And for this you want numbers for coverage. Given the avg cubesat lasts about 6 months, you want big numbers, too.
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<maaku>
the bigger problem is intersat relay. a block-relay cubesat is pretty useless if it only intermitantly talks to whatever ground station is under it
<jcorgan>
a big challenge is that none of them (nor the originally planned BitSat's) will have the available transmit power to have receivers with simple, fixed antennas
<jcorgan>
all would require pointable tracking dishes to have enough gain
<maaku>
well not useless, but not as useful as it could be
<maaku>
would sitll let you know if there are more-work blocks you haven't been hearing about
<el33th4x0r>
aren't the delays to bounce to those altitudes so huge to make ths a non-starter?
<rusty>
maaku: yeah, you need multiple ground stations, you also need as jcorgan said, to try to reduce the kit needed to receive signals.
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<maaku>
el33th4x0r: altitudes of 200km?
<rusty>
maaku: AFAICT that's the entire point.
<rusty>
(Or at least, see my comment on "90% of the benefit")
<maaku>
rusty: talk in scrollback was about sidestepping terrestrial broadcast links
<rusty>
maaku: yeah, people talk a lot :) The reason I donated to the initial dungvan raise was because having alternate (even wacky!) anti-sybil methods is useful to the robustness of the system as a whole.
<rusty>
I also considered creating a "blockhdr by sms" subscription service.
<jcorgan>
in my more paranoid moments, i always figured a constellation of blockchain emitting cubesates would make good target practice for ThePowersThatBe(TM) :-)
<kanzure>
since when is venture capital considered a donation? :p
<rusty>
kanzure: the very early exploratory money (20BTC IIRC, at a point where that was over USD10k) was very clearly a donation :)
<maaku>
jcorgan: I highly doubt any nation would risk the international incident that would result from bombing a satellite
<jcorgan>
i was joking, of course, but you don't need to bomb it, just fry an LNA or two. "Satellites fail all the time!"
<maaku>
(not because "hey you shot down my satellite!" but because the debris would cause real economic damage)
<maaku>
ah yeah that would probably work against a non-hardened cubesat
<kanzure>
re: sharding as only way to reduce local bandwidth, would probably be good to have once-a-month block shard with lowest possible bandwidth requirements.
<kanzure>
high-latency low-bandwidth blocks would be v. v. useful for decentralization purposes
<kanzure>
also with absurdly small block size
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<bramc>
You don't need to 'bomb' a satellite. Hitting it with a piece of dust would do the trick.
<maaku>
bramc a kinetic impactor would have all the same issues of creating space junk
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<bramc>
maaku, Sort of. The thing doing the impacting could be very small. The satellite itself would be some serious space junk though.
<aj>
if it's a bit of dust impacting the sat, it'll just stay mostly in the same orbit though, which for cubesats will decay in a few months anyway?
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* TD-Linux
would love to see bramc's piece of dust that can precisely impact an orbiting satellite at very high relative velocities
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<kanzure>
re: visualization of graph with bandwidth asymmetries between (sometimes mining) nodes. the visualization should be of different flood-attempts from different source nodes. propagation can be shown to get "stuck" in local minimas in convex bandwidth landscape over the graph. competing floods can be shown to occur in some temporal sequence to illustrate point of consensus drift towards higher bandwidth subgraphs. hashrate ...
<kanzure>
... consolidation can be visualized as some laggy rate of hashrate addition to each miner after every well-confirmed win.
<kanzure>
re: global radio broadcast of blocks, i think the idea should be updated to be specifically for radio broadcast of big weak blocks. for smaller miners, it's way more important to get all the unconfirmed transactions you would have otherwise missed, so that you can construct good IBLT templates beyond what your capacity would have otherwise been. broadcasting solved regular-difficulty blocks is useful but not as useful for keeping ...
<kanzure>
... smaller miners around.
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<Dudebro_>
Do you know of any good trading platforms that support arbitrage?
<bramc>
gmaxwell, Why are you making it an 'I'm not a douchebag' signal? Shouldn't it be the opposite, that there's an 'I'm a douchebag' signal?
<gmaxwell>
Because I want the failure mode for non-upgraded software or lazy miners to not signal false confidence.
<gmaxwell>
Also, I don't think douchebag is fair: you're not a douchbag for doing this for brief periods so long as no one is confused about what you're doing.
<gmaxwell>
I explain in the motivation section that if everyone does this, it makes mining more fair.
<gmaxwell>
I think it's a necessary component along with improved realy for avoiding higher transaction load from creating centeralization pressure.
<gmaxwell>
but maybe I should make that more clear in the abstract.
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<tromp__>
is there any danger of a majority of pools deciding to build only on validation-signalled blocks? which would incentivize douchebags to just outright lie?
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<gmaxwell>
tromp__: I don't believe so; they wouldn't gain from doing so. The document specifically points out that if anyone punishes the miners will just lie and make the signal useless.
<tromp__>
i am assuming of course that a majority of pools is actually fully validating
<gmaxwell>
tromp__: the assumption here is that everyone is fully validating; but the could not have completed their validation 1 millisecond after a new block arrived.
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<tromp__>
ah yes; i found your observation in the block of text
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<gmaxwell>
not fully validating at all is (hopefully) not economically rational; but not waiting on validation often is... as it can have a huge impact on orphaning that you can't easily faster-cpu yourself out of.
<bramc>
gmaxwell, So the idea is that you signal not fully validated if you happen to 'get lucky' and find a new block before the old one had a chance to finish validation?
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<gmaxwell>
Yes.
<tromp__>
looks well thought out. just ugly to use the version field for this. is there any intention for use of negative version values (use of bit 31) ?
<gmaxwell>
tromp__: negative versions can't be used; because ... the version was defined to be >1 without thinking about the fact that it was signed.
<gmaxwell>
So now BIP 31 is the hardfork bit. :)
<gmaxwell>
er BIT not BIP
<gmaxwell>
Hm okay, but in light of that perhaps I should not give the >= example; I did that because in prior BIPs people complained that they didn't understand bit operations.
<gmaxwell>
(in light of the fact that a hardfork might recover bit 31).
<tromp__>
why not steal a least significant bit? version 2*k is nonvalidated, 2*k+1 is validated. that preserves version ordering
<gmaxwell>
bramc: Another way of looking at this, never setting the flag at all is lame but no more anti-social than intentionally producing very small blocks... we get along okay with that.
<gmaxwell>
tromp__: versionbits (BIP 9) basically redefines the version field as a bitfield. We don't consider monotone versions very compatible with a decenteralized system. (or hell, a distributed one)... monotone ordering doesn't let us have multiple changes in flight at once. :)
<gmaxwell>
If the version bits people tell me to set the LSB instead, I will.
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<tromp__>
btw, author is missing a 2nd 'l' :)
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<gmaxwell>
tromp__: somehow I don't think he'll mind.