sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
<nsh>
(confirmed by science)
<coinoperated_rob>
so which one of you is craig steven wright...
<justanotheruser>
who cares
<kanzure>
off-topic
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<coinoperated_rob>
for now, sure.
<kanzure>
((satoshi speculation has always been off-topic, even when satoshi was satoshi dorito nakamoto, or satoshi trammel))
<justanotheruser>
but I already banned everyone from the first :(
<kanzure>
hmm interesting problem
<coinoperated_rob>
there was a chan just for that? who has the time
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<gmaxwell>
tulip is, obviously.
<jcorgan>
#bitcoin-satoshispeculation was created back in the Dorian days
<jcorgan>
it is live again
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<nsh>
--
<nsh>
A method of generating cryptographic keys to implement a Failsafe Key Escrow system. A prime modulus Q and a generator G for ZQ are publicly known. The public key PX that is escrowed for user X is GSX mod Q, where Sx is the secret key for user X. The user picks a random secret value A from [0, Q-2] and announces the value of GA mod Q to a set of trustees or a central authority. Next the user "shares
<nsh>
" A with the trustees using a verifiable secret sharing scheme. The trustees and/or the central authority selects a random value B from the interval [0, Q-2] and they set the user's public key to be PX =(GA)GB mod Q. The value of B is returned to the user and is escrowed with the public key for X. The value of B is not released to the public. The user's then sets his secret key to be SX =A+B mod (Q-
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<moa>
tulip: you around ?
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<bramc>
amiller, We got a reply. I sent a response explaining my new idea about making the challenge for a block be not just based on a previous block but on top of a proof of time on top of that block.
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<amiller>
bramc, noted
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<amiller>
to clarify the context of the above, we've been talking here recently about how to combine proofs of time, proofs of space, to make a nice cryptocurrency design
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<amiller>
nevermind, it was way better without any context
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<kanzure>
the other thing to point out is that, in addition to the lack of a miner relay network, is that even if there was one, "The reason it won't is because the longest chain is determined by the mining relay" is nonsense because it would require another consensus layer (determination)
<kanzure>
((this other consensus layer is clearly not implemented))
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<alpalp>
gmaxwell: unfortunately people just want to believe what they want to believe.
<kanzure>
i have shamelessly stolen your words and didn't attribute you in my reply to Adrian-X, hope you're cool with that (sue me) (please don't)
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<gmaxwell>
when you repeat my words, they become your words. You deal with the consequences. :P
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<kanzure>
"the martian miners would have no incentive to mine on top of their own blocks if they want resources from earth."
<morcos>
gmaxwell: i just spent 5 mins trying to understand what he was saying. have you ever seen billy madison? i blame you. reddit!
<yoleaux>
Billy Madison - Insanely Idiotic (Academic Decathlon) - YouTube
* jcorgan
is sad that someone like gmaxwell has to waste time and energy refuting idiots. it just makes them feel important.
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<gmaxwell>
This particular person is historically confused; but from folling traffic on the RogerVer created forum there is a community of a good dozen people who basically think the same things, all self reinforcing.
<kanzure>
even idiots can make good colleagues and even good contributors. better to refute an idea.
<gmaxwell>
I think the fundimental misunderstanding is that nodes have "perfect global knoweldge"; or that when describing a situation they fail to partition what the node knows from what they know.
<alpalp>
Absolutely, refuting points is not for stubborn blockheads but for others who might read
<kanzure>
wait what do blockheaders have to do with this?
<moa>
gmaxwell: it is the remnants of the cypherdoc cult ... sigh they are beyond help i think until the spell is broken
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<kanzure>
i replied a second time, didn't notice the other one oops. probably redundant...
<alpalp>
I am always a bit shocked how strong opinions people hold on such simple but technical discussions
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<jcorgan>
nobody is more vehement about there beliefs than those can hold them without consequence or any stake in the outcome
<jcorgan>
their*
<kanzure>
lotta platitudes floatng around in here. easier and cheaper to just refute directly than paying the cost of such hefty assumptions.......
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<gmaxwell>
moa: I've been trying to goad them into participating on http://bitcoinocracy.com/ with the patter they spin, it had seemed like their ignorance was only matched by the magnitude of their bitcoin holdings; but it seems that that might be hot-air too.
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<kanzure>
"If the majority of the users/services who use Bitcoin are on the earth, then earth nodes will be the choosers of the longest-chain."
<kanzure>
i'm... not sure how they think that has anything to do with bitcoin.
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<instagibbs>
"there is a community of a good dozen people who basically think the same things, all self reinforcing" Wait are we talking about -wizards here? ;)
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<phantomcircuit>
alpalp, refuting idiots on reddit is not an effective use of time...
<kanzure>
you don't refute an idiot, you refute an idea
<phantomcircuit>
kanzure, that's my point
<phantomcircuit>
if you respond to every moron on reddit you will refute the same idea slightly restated 1000 times
<instagibbs>
ok read the thread: there are no ideas there. Complete waste of time.
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<moa>
looks like there's full-blown sideshow storm incoming that will distract reddit from anything technical for quite a while
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<gmaxwell>
see, hostfat commented too; as I said, it's not just this adrian-x guy.
<coinoperated_tv>
@moa storms keep the sails full, at least
<gmaxwell>
phantomcircuit: I dunno; I think if I convinced one person in that group that bitcoin doesn't and can't work the way that think, it'll likely flip the rest.
<gmaxwell>
They're technically highly ignorant, but their wishes for the bitcoin system aren't so different from mine. It makes me sad that they consider me personally an enemy.
<coinoperated_tv>
@gmaxwell +1 bashing reddit is missing the point. markets for ideas spring up in the strangest places
<sipa>
e0: it is likely related to op_codeseparator abd the ability to delegate signing to someone else originally
<gmaxwell>
oops I guess I didn't answer that. Sorry. I intended to give the same answer and got lost looking for a citation.
<kanzure>
not sure what to say about "It is only in the situation where you have 51% of the hash that you could statistically orphan other miners blocks"
<kanzure>
other than "Any miner can mine on whatever chaintip they want"..
<kanzure>
but not sure why the person mentioned it
<gmaxwell>
e0: we believe bitcoin script was orignally intended to allow you to be able to sign over any coin to a new public key, by having a seperator and the new key, and a signature. I don't think we're sure if it ever actually worked; and it certantly doesn't work now due to the seperation of execution.
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<el33th4x0r>
test
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<el33th4x0r>
thanks @gmaxwell, looks like it worked.
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<sipa>
gmaxwell: are we sure it does not work anymore?
<el33th4x0r>
kanzure: the people in that discussion about 51% attacks seem not to have heard of selfish mining or 34% attacks.
<gmaxwell>
el33th4x0r: every time I even mention "selfish mining" (even just citing the paper as a well constructed proof point around propagation effecting mining fairness.) I get attacked that "selfish mining was disproven"
<gmaxwell>
el33th4x0r: it might be interesting to you that an altcoin miner recently posted on reddit that they tried selfish mining but couldn't make it work-- but it was purely due to a lack of software engineering ability, they couldn't get their node to switch to their own block after accepting a block from the network.
<kanzure>
yes also they like to tout stuff like "selfish mining wont happen because miners don't shit where they eat".. haha.
<gmaxwell>
kanzure: I thought it was nice that the altcoin multipool guy explained in detail their attempt; good counter-evidence to that.
<sipa>
kanzure: which is true, currently
<sipa>
for bitcoin miners
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<kanzure>
sipa: "I feel like someone might say something like, "of course it exists, it's just honest miners and trusting miners to not misbehave and shit where they eat". So, I would like to reply ahead of time and point out that the whole point of Bitcoin is to minimize the amount of necessary trust. Not that justified trust is a bad thing, but trust makes systems brittle, opaque, and costly to operate. Trust failures result in systemic ...
<kanzure>
... collapses, trust curation creates inequality and monopoly lock-in, and naturally arising trust choke-points can be abused to deny access to due process. Through the use of cryptographic proof and decentralized networks Bitcoin minimizes and replaces these trust costs."
<el33th4x0r>
gmaxwell: yes, the unwashed masses do say incorrect things like that. we do have to educate them about the 34% boundary.
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<el33th4x0r>
gmaxwell: and thanks for the altcoin miner story. do you have a pointer to this? I am not surprised that getting the miner code right is beyond the ability of most miners right now.
<gmaxwell>
el33th4x0r: it's hard to do that when they reject the premise of strategic behavior flat out; and even reject non-strategic but just natural unfairness created due to latency.
<kanzure>
it is my understanding that most miners do not have engineers hanging around to edit bitcoin software
<el33th4x0r>
gmaxwell: right, they have difficulty accepting that someone might want to make money at the expense of the common good.
<sipa>
kanzure: of course, i've tried to explain that too; the fact that people currently are uninterested in strategic behaviour is not a reason to not protect against it
<sipa>
kanzure: but i do believe it is true that today this will not happen in bitcoin
<kanzure>
because regulators are vacationing too hard? :)
<sipa>
unfairness due to latency is a different matter
<el33th4x0r>
sipa: completely agree. "the fact that people currently are uninterested in strategic behaviour is not a reason to not protect against it"
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<midnightmagic>
kiwiirc is now no longer mass-banned in #bitcoin: el33th4x0r consider using a native IRC client instead of kiwiirc. :-)
<el33th4x0r>
for the record, we do have an implementation of a selfish mining pool coordinator. we would have to think about whether or not we want to make it available -- we have not yet made it available to anyone other than our own group. feel free to direct people our way if they are interested.
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<gmaxwell>
el33th4x0r: the preciousblock rpc pull request for bitcoin core would have solved that person's implementation difficulties.
<el33th4x0r>
midnightmagic: thank you! just curious, what was the issue with kiwiirc? it's pretty convenient for people like me prefer a browser.
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<midnightmagic>
some people don't think that at all: the market knows about selfish mining, and if it occurs, the price will reflect the resulting lack of confidence in effective vs. real hashrate. and please reconsider referring to the Other as unwashed masses. it destroys useful interaction with people who identify more with normal people as a philosophical choice
<midnightmagic>
el33th4x0r: It was a foul-mouthed floodspammer; freenode doesn't extend CIDR masks to the kiwiirc, so they can effectively use the same IP address twice to flood the channel
<gmaxwell>
midnightmagic: well we can see the non-effect on price of bad behavior by large miners in the form of the finney attacks on betcoin dice.
<el33th4x0r>
the price will simply reflect the equilibrium of the supply-demand curve, so I don't believe that the presence of a selfish miner will affect the price much at all.
<el33th4x0r>
as @gmaxwell points out, finney attacks, even GHash crossing the 51% boundary had a negligible effect on price
<gmaxwell>
well, in particular it's easy to excuse these attacks as "we know they existed, not news"; which the comments on that thread reflect.
<el33th4x0r>
as for "unwashed masses," point well taken. it was a reference to people who deny science to pump up an investment, but you're right, it can be offputting.
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<gmaxwell>
Even "the victim was stupid" (while meanwhile the vulnerable same behavior is used by lots of parties every day)
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<midnightmagic>
that was done earlier by other pools and was well-publicized: actual thefts to 0conf services that depend on the seeming randomness of txid could be assumed to have already been priced into the end-user/market price. in other words, IMO, it was not new information for speculators who themselves knew their coins were as safe as they thought they were.
<coinoperated_tv>
what matters about the masses is not their hygeine habits, but their purchasing power
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<gmaxwell>
midnightmagic: well seemingly not because it bankrupted them. :)
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<midnightmagic>
bankrupted the 0conf-relying, human brain-hacking cognitive deficit-relying gambling service? :-) the market itself is another divorced entity entirely, in my view, even divorced from the vehicles which express it (being the exchanges). satoshidice adapted to the finney attacks and didn't go bankrupt; and the existence and risk of the attacks IMO was well-known and priced into the markets, m
<midnightmagic>
uch the way the game of chicken prior to the supply halving seems to kick off ~ six months prior to the actual event
<midnightmagic>
el33th4x0r: fwiw, I agree with your assessments (again, big surprise)
<kanzure>
gmaxwell: for a reply to "I'm not sure about this result, maybe it isn't so hard to make a simple simulation." what about showing the poisson process section of the whitepaper? would that be sufficient.
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<fluffypony>
[04:33:16] <amiller>nevermind, it was way better without any context <- quite, I thought you were communicating with the miners on Mars
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<bramc>
When people on twitter act like they know what they're talking about and say things like we're way below monopoly blocksize it makes me despair for the future.
<fluffypony>
bramc: that's not solely a Twitter problem, that's a just-enough-knowledge-to-be-dangerous problem
<fluffypony>
it's frightening how many people tackle system design that is well outside of their realm of expertise, and then ignore input from those they should consider peers (writing it off as FUD or jealousy or something equally nonsensical)
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<bramc>
fluffypony, I understand people not understanding macroeconomics. I can even understand people not understanding that macroeconomics doesn't apply to Bitcoin. But not understanding microeconomics? In simple scenarios which can be fully worked out on paper in just a few minutes?
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<zooko>
bramc: do you mean me?
<bramc>
zooko, You weren't the worst offender
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<instagibbs>
re:price and vulnerabilities, people commonly claim that if 0-conf is further eroded(?) that the utility/price of Bitcoin will drop. Of course there have been tons of 0-conf double-spends, with seemingly no effect on price.
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<dgenr8>
ironically, the most predictable effect of continued small blocks combined with increased acceptance of the currency will be a massive increase in hosted wallets
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<pigeons>
supporting a price based on something that doesnt work the way you say is pretty shady
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<coinoperated_tv>
is there a list of known events that did correlate to price changes tracked somewhere?
<pigeons>
off topic, but its the same issue on all markets, like the financial news, that is just speculation
<coinoperated_tv>
not interested in price per se, but the kind of events that do move it, and how far. what signal strength does it take to generate a ripple in the medium.
<pigeons>
that isnt something you can ever know
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<coinoperated_tv>
depends on how quickly exchanges report, no? Looking at exchanges like seismographic stations
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<bramc>
Transaction fees are currently de minimis, so not much conclusions can be drawn from their past movements.
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<petertodd>
maaku: oh, did alex mizrahi come up with linearized coin history? I should figure this out before I take the credit...
<kanzure>
while you are at it, can you give a good name to "wallets are responsible for keeping their utxos and evidence" schemes?
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<gmaxwell>
"The STXO zero stroage infinity bandwidth mode."
<kanzure>
so be it
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<aj>
gmaxwell: did i get my maths roughly right in figuring segwit lets a miner easily force hashing ~9GB to validate a block versus only about 2.4GB presently? (and if so, does that seem like a problem? my laptop takes ~15s for 2.4GB and 55s for 9.3GB, and 2m for 19.9GB for just straight sha256 of /dev/zero so it seems like it might be)
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<gmaxwell>
aj: if you're speaking in terms of accurately accounted sigops, in either case the limit is 20,000 per block. Which you can hit now with duplication at a marginal cost of about a byte per sigop
<gmaxwell>
aj: the witness is not hashes by sighash.
<gmaxwell>
And you could already hit sighash limited hash volume in a 1MB block.
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<aj>
gmaxwell: so worst case stays the same at just under 20GB, assuming sigop limit stays at 20k?
<gmaxwell>
aj: and assuming the sigops counting applied to segwit transactions, indeed.
<aj>
gmaxwell: the 2.4G/9.3G limit is hittable with miners just not being careful when cleaning dust, rather than actively trying to exploit things though
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<gmaxwell>
well it's worse because sigops aren't actually limited correctly in normal non-p2sh transactions.
<gmaxwell>
They're counted in txouts but not scriptsigs.
<aj>
gmaxwell: i kind of want to say "maybe it'd make sense to just count how many bytes get hashed and add yet another independent constraint for the optimiser to worry about" :(
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<gmaxwell>
aj: well for fancy script in general there should be a proper cost model.
<gmaxwell>
where execution of an operation that hashes the whole transaction implies a greater cost than a OP_ADD.
<aj>
gmaxwell: i wonder if it'd be reasonable to have such a model f(bytes_hashed, number_ecc_ops, size_of_tx, ...) and just have regular hard forks once every few years to change both the coefficients and overall limit based on technology changes
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<gmaxwell>
aj: a concept I'd expressed (to maaku, if not in here) before was that you could have a multidimensional cost matrix and a procedure for updating it; and hard fork every few years to update it. One could, in fact, make it so that it did not require a hard fork, but a soft-fork instead.
<gmaxwell>
You make the old limit matrix height limited, and the old limits go to infinity, with the new matrix soft-forked in below them.
<gmaxwell>
OTOH, it is important when someone give you a transaction that you know it's cost before evauating it; and having to pass a vector cost would be kind of lame.
<gmaxwell>
I think in general cost weights hardly matter. If they're within a couple orders of magnitude they align incentives the right way.