sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<kanzure>
jl2012: sorry about getting moderated. FWIW i think your email was on-topic.
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<btcdrak>
jl2012: me too
<gmaxwell>
me too; though the thread was getting circular; but it wasn't the fault of jl2012.
<gmaxwell>
Bitcoin-dev is just not a safe space to discuss new ideas.
<jl2012>
anyway, I believe it's better to move to somewhere else, as it is just a rough idea not for implementation in near term
<bramc>
I'm missing context here, but the thought which may or may not be relevant is what you really want in blocks is roots of three things: utxos added this block, utxos removed this block, and utxos after the previous block
<gmaxwell>
yea, it's further out. And I think it's okay that the list isn't there.
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<gmaxwell>
er list isn't ideal for that regardless.
<bramc>
That way you have a whole block of time to recalculate a utxo root, which is good because that might take a few dozen milliseconds or more.
<gmaxwell>
Though I am a bit unhappy with the confused shouting out by people who AFAIK have little background in the subject matter... since it makes the list inapproiate for things that are nearer term too.
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<jl2012>
kanzure: I don't mind moving away after some initial discussion. Just wonder why I have to wait for moderation for all my posts
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<gmaxwell>
I'd say that it would be beneficial to hammer out things like that in plances where the audience will not be as likely to get caught up in misunderstandings.. but your post I think was pretty clear. I think if I checked it first I wouldn't have suggested any clarifications, beyond pointing you to where very similar things had been discussed before.
<bramc>
I'm trying to guess what y'all are discussing based on previous traffic on this channel and it isn't clear.
<gmaxwell>
Someone have an archive link for bramc.
<gmaxwell>
?
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<jl2012>
gmaxwell: Would you please point me to Peter Todd's similar proposal?
<jl2012>
If a proposal is useful and not done, the probability for it to be reinvented approaches 1.
<gmaxwell>
jl2012: I'm not sure what the best link is. He has propsed 'stxo' commitments which is an insertion ordered commitment over every txout created (or in some versions he's described it as being over all the txouts that fall off the end of a fixed size FIFO utxo set). When a STXO is spent the spend includes an update proof the shows membership and sets it to an empty alue.
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<gmaxwell>
So more or less what you were thinking, but the original direction of the approach is different, and some details were different: e.g. fixed size vs time based.
<gmaxwell>
This would let you have determinstic storage requirements for nodes.
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<bramc>
Sounds like a reasonable idea, although I'd add in a few things (these may be in the proposal already, I'm not fully clear on the details): There should be batches over time, possibly each batch doesn't need to be included until a few blocks after it ends, to give time for its computation. It has the downside of making transactions quite a bit bigger (those paths to merkle roots are much larger than signatures). We don't
<bramc>
need it yet.
<jl2012>
time based UTXO limit + block size limit also indirectly sets an upper UTXO limit, at least you could calculate a theoretical one
<gmaxwell>
FWIW, most of the path is common to almost every transaction (the top of the tree)
<gmaxwell>
so if you require nodes to keep track of the top couple levels of the tree, those directly go off the count.
<bramc>
gmaxwell, They're still big, at least compared to ECC hashes
<gmaxwell>
e.g. doesn't take much state to store the top 16 levels of the tree (65536 leaves), and would cut 512 bytes off every stxo txin
<bramc>
A hash is 256 bits, or 32 bytes. With a set of 1000 things, that winds up being 320 bytes
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<gmaxwell>
I think this could actually be negoiated too. e.g. "I keep the top X, don't send me that"
<fluffypony>
heh
<bramc>
You could also have the batches be referred to by number, and do them frequently. That would cut down on size as well. But still, any way you slice it resurrecting an archived utxo would require several times as many bytes as a regular transaction
<fluffypony>
jl2012: not sure if you're aware, but ThomasV proposed exactly this like a year ago
<gmaxwell>
yes, in these schemes the archived txouts take more space to spend for sure.
<gmaxwell>
though as I said, degrees of fractionality of the tree to could be hop by hop negoiated.
<gmaxwell>
So people could freely make space/bandwidth tradeoff decisions.
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<kanzure>
jl2012: you have to wait for moderation because we keep forgetting to unset your moderation bit! sorry about that. i'll try to remember.
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<jl2012>
for a block with 1024 UTXOs, 10 layers of hash would take 320bytes, plus other required info it should not take more than 400 bytes
<jl2012>
so the size is inflated by 100-200% for a normal 250bytes tx. Not a big deal IMO
<gmaxwell>
yea, and 10 layers is a lot, if you're assuming 16 layers of "common data"
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<bramc>
Is it important to clean up memory as data is deleted or does it really, really not matter?
<bramc>
Today on the anal retentive programmer: How to clean your bit bucket
<Luke-Jr>
bramc: … what do you mean?
<Luke-Jr>
if you don't free your memory, it will obviously leak
<bramc>
Luke-Jr, I'm doing my own memory management, it's a question of whether I zero stuff out when it's no longer used (the zeroing in some cases contains semantic information, in others it's just redundant)
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<bramc>
This is for my Merkle Set
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<Taek>
bramc: You should definintely zero out memory if there is secret data. Otherwise it's not needed
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<petertodd>
gmaxwell: "Petertodd actually proposed basically the same idea" <- no, I was asked to do it - part of why I dropped the contract was I thought going to all that effort just to get rid of a GB of UTXO's was a bad idea
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<bsm117532>
The ever-growing utxo set is beginning to weigh on my mind. I wonder if there's a way to use ZKP's to keep a "virtual" utxo set. i.e. a transaction could be a ZKP proof of a valid state transition on the ledger, without anyone actually keeping the ledger. This would presumably require clients to keep more data about their utxos.
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<phantomcircuit>
bsm117532, not without reducing the security of the system to the security of the zkp
<phantomcircuit>
which would certainly be less than the security of the current scheme
<phantomcircuit>
to a limited extent clients can produce partial proofs that their transactions are valid and then full node operators can build fraud proofs to counter
<phantomcircuit>
however such a scheme still requires full nodes exist and be available but more so changes the censorship resistance requirement substantially
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<phantomcircuit>
bsm117532, tl;dr yes but not
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<bsm117532>
phantomcircuit: none of what you say is obvious to me, nor how to do it. Do you know of any work in this direction?
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<bsm117532>
Another way of stating the same thing might be: "Could the UTXO set be kept entirely on the client side, and validated with ZKP's?" If possible it would allow node scaling to be only dependent on the number of transactions, not the number of accounts/addresses/users.
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<phantomcircuit>
bsm117532, yes but unproven crypto
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<bsm1175321>
I was just wondering if a Schnorr signature could be used, likening to gmaxwell's presentation of Schnorr signatures for multisig -- could signatures for the last n-1 transactions (all transactions back to the coin's origin coinbase/genesis) be combined with the holder's signature when spent?
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<maaku_>
bsm1175321: zkp rely on cryptographic assumptions that are new to bitcoin
<sipa>
bsm1175321: the efficient schnorr combining of multiple signatures only works when they sign the same message
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<bsm1175321>
maaku_: I'm willing to consider other assumptions, this is -wizards. ;-)
<bsm1175321>
sipa: so such a scheme would have to be similar to Chaumian e-cash. The signature would have to be on the serial number of a fixed denomination, rather than divisible utxos.
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<bramc>
maaku_, I've come up with specifics of filling in the details of a patricia trie which I like. It mostly has to do with making proofs of non-inclusion efficient.
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<coinoperated>
@kanzure, in the scalability summary deck you made, on Pg 18 (and i think again a few slides later) you refer to pruning, "invalidate old UTXOs", with sub notes suggesting cases like burning old BTC and move old BTC to miner subsidy or other purposes. Are there more details on these proposals anywhere, and how seriously were they taken?
<coinoperated>
at face value these would seem to be rather unpopular suggestions
<bsm1175321>
coinoperated: There was some discussion of this on the mailing list this week. Indeed the proposals were unpopular.
<coinoperated>
@bsm1175321: ah thanks, dormant accounts escheat to the state in traditional banking, this would be a Bitcoin version of that practice then
<pigeons>
coinoperated: in this proposal the funds aren't lost to the owner, they can still be spent
<bsm1175321>
Some of the replies discussed confiscating coins though...
<coinoperated>
i wonder if in 20 years this will not be as unpopular. one cannot fight for their rights to posession from the grave
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<coinoperated>
or in the language of the proposal linked above" It becomes the responsibility of dormant coin holders to scan the
<coinoperated>
blockchain for the current status of the UTXO commitment for their coin. "
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<bsm1175321>
coinoperated: proof-of-life or death is by necessity centralized, generally a function of the state. And there's no reason autonomous programs couldn't keep bitcoin wallets.
<bsm1175321>
Lots of people throughout history have been declared dead so corrupt states could seize their assets.
<coinoperated>
even autonomous programs need someone feeding them electricity
<coinoperated>
you don't have to be dead even, just insufficiently relevant to consensus
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<bsm1175321>
We're veering offtopic. But ways to reduce the utxo set are still interesting.
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<coinoperated>
do you know of a place where discussion of issues that have a general bearing on Bitcoin's long term developemnt are on topic?
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<bsm1175321>
Well here, or bitcoin-dev. I'm just saying proof-of-death isn't a technical issue that cryptography has any bearing on.
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<coinoperated>
oh i see, i wasn't really thinking in terms of proof of death, just using it as a comparative case in fiat contexts. You don't have to be dead, just unable to fight your corner for whatever reason, while consensus on a hard fork closes in on a solution that invalidates your UTXOs. I guess this is not a suitable topic for the IRC format though.
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