sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<el33th4x0r>
So, I blink and spend the day reading papers, and you guys all go ahead and have a huge selfish mining discussion without me.
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<amiller>
frankenm_, i don't think anyone is using shadow-bitcoin yet
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<bsm1175321>
amiller: I know the Bitcoin-NG guys ran a 1000 node simulated bitcoin cluster, with the actual core code. Do you know how they did it, if not shadow-bitcoin? In any case, I'll probably use it.
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<amiller>
el33th4x0r, ^^^^
<bsm1175321>
Oh he's on, thanks.
<bsm1175321>
Right now I'm doing simulations in python with my cartoon mental model of Bitcoin, but the next step is to use the core code.
<bsm1175321>
amiller: how does shadow-bitcoin efficently use the blockchain? I assume I don't need 1000 copies of the 60+GB chain...but then it seems the different instances will conflict with each other when e.g. updating leveldb...
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<bsm1175321>
nm, your wiki page has what I need, I think.
<el33th4x0r>
we built an emulation testbed, with links emulating the bandwidths and latencies we measured.
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<bsm1175321>
el33th4x0r: Is it all software? Any chance it's open sourced or something I can use?
<el33th4x0r>
all software. we plan to release the testbed code on or before April. It has not been open sourced yet.
<el33th4x0r>
of course, you'll need a large cluster and a quiescent network to use it.
<bsm1175321>
Eek that's what I was afraid of. :-(
<el33th4x0r>
if the study you want to do could lead to a publication for a student, we might be able to find a way to run your study here, locally on our own cluster.
<bsm1175321>
shadow-bitcoin seems too good to be true. Can you make a comparison? Have you seen it?
<bsm1175321>
I'm no longer at an academic institution, but it will lead to a publication.
<el33th4x0r>
I know all about shadow-bitcoin. great work by amiller.
<bsm1175321>
Co-authorship is certainly doable.
<el33th4x0r>
ok, awesome, why don't you email me a short description of the experiments, and I'll see if we can get one of our phd students interested.
<bsm1175321>
Ok, happy to! Thanks!
<el33th4x0r>
awesome, looking forward to it!
<kanzure>
do your phd students accept bribes like money and payment?
<bsm1175321>
Academics work for citations alone. ;-)
<el33th4x0r>
:-) haha, we are so corruptible!
<kanzure>
seems like a good opportunity to throw some people at various problems
<kanzure>
ah i see, authorships.
<kanzure>
well okay.
<bsm1175321>
See, I know the system. ;-)
<el33th4x0r>
kanzure: more seriously, phd students can consult. but they are far more motivated when the problem is open, difficult and likely to yield a new result.
<kanzure>
well more specifically i mean, in other contexts, i have to pay to fund a small "grant" or something, and then the university admins get 52% and etc etc
<el33th4x0r>
ah, the overheads... bane of our existence.
<el33th4x0r>
for industrial gifts, it's only 10%
<kanzure>
cool to hear you have some leeway in absence of grants tho
<el33th4x0r>
for grants we get from government sources, the university takes 67% overhead.
<kanzure>
haha what 67%
<el33th4x0r>
yeah, insane.
<coinoperated>
thats nuts. an actual government sponsored institution (the Smithsonian) only takes about 25% (from an NSF grant in this case)
<el33th4x0r>
tell me about it. When we say something about it, the administration says that Harvard's overhead is in the 70-something percent range.
<bsm1175321>
I left for private industry and am still trying to publish papers. Universities are dying.
<kanzure>
their inertia will play out for a long time
<el33th4x0r>
they are certainly changing character.
<bsm1175321>
I'm more interested in progress than supporting dinosaurs built of administrators.
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<el33th4x0r>
there are tons of idealistic people going into the system, so that tends to keep things afloat.
<coinoperated>
Is that true for the whole school or just for the GSAS, and its different for the med school, etc?
<coinoperated>
err i mean, the Cornell version of the GSAS
<el33th4x0r>
this is true for engineering for sure. I believe it's also true for the sciences. I would not be surprised if the overheads were actually higher for the med school.
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<Guest14531>
sup
<Guest14531>
any of u guys lift?
<Guest14531>
was just telling my lady about bitcoins
<Guest14531>
she said she thought they sounded pretty boss
<Guest14531>
state cant control em and whatever
<Guest14531>
thats cool man
<kanzure>
wrong channel, this is actually buttcoin hq
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<Guest14531>
not into butt stuff
<Guest14531>
at least right now
<Guest14531>
;)
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<Guest14531>
whats going on with bitcoin what can i do to help make it better
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<Guest14531>
far out
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<coinoperated>
this being buttcoin hq we will need you to tithe some comedy gold first.
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<bramc>
110 new lines is enough, I'm calling it a day.
<CubicEarth>
Strong work bramc - that's 110 more lines than I wrote today.
<bramc>
CubicEarth, It's a little misleading because I spent several months doing design work for what I'm coding now. When there's a clear spec I can crank through stuff super fast.
<CubicEarth>
bramc: So your saying that's a lot? I know for carful work it can be.
<bramc>
CubicEarth, For core work it's a huge amount.
<CubicEarth>
bramc: got it.
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<stevenroose_>
anyone here? I have a remark on the paper on 2-way pegged sidechains
<fluffypony>
there are logs, so comment away and someone will definitely read it
<stevenroose_>
it says "While the hash value itself does not change the amount of work a block is counted as, the presence of lower-than-necessary hashes is in fact statistical evidence of more work done in the chain[Mil12]. "
<stevenroose_>
right above that, it explains that the values are random probabilistic, so that even if only hashing towards a certain target, certain amounts of the time, the hash will be certain times lower than the target
<stevenroose_>
however, since the target is included in the block hash and since publishing a valid hash asap is incentivized so hard, not a single miner will ever hash towards lower-than-necessary hashes
<stevenroose_>
so, given the hash value on itself, it can be statistical evidence that more work is done than a higher hash
<stevenroose_>
however given the known target value, everyone knows that the hash value only counts as the target value because it could have been any other value lower than the target
<stevenroose_>
right?
<stevenroose_>
the paper suggests exploiting these lower-then-necessary hashes by (if I understand it correctly, I need to read the source on that) giving them more weight as an SPV proof
<stevenroose_>
I think that might actually be dangerous because a miner that "accidentally" finds an abnormally low hash for a certain block, has a lot more power than another miner mining for that block, even though they are looking for the same target hash
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<stevenroose_>
fluffypony: are the logs public, btw? my bouncer often fails so I dont have logs for myself if I close my laptop..
<fluffypony>
yes indeed, check the channel topic
<fluffypony>
they're also on botbot.me
<stevenroose_>
haha, ok, bitcoin.ninja is such an epic domain name :D
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<maaku>
kanzure: we tried to make this distinction by coining DMMS
<maaku>
you may just need to find a more memorable phrase for that concept
<maaku>
ibrightly: why? they could still arbitrarily rewrite transactions
<maaku>
(or force upgrades a la evil fork)
<ibrightly>
They could, but not without all users knowing about it.
<ibrightly>
Or perhaps forking themselves off of the accepted chain of transactions.
<kanzure>
maaku: DMMS isn't sufficient though... i guess you could talk about membership requirements?
<ibrightly>
Basically centralized PoW does still confer transparency although transactions are no longer censorship resistant.
<kanzure>
what transparency? the nonce....?
<ibrightly>
Empty blocks = obvious suppression of transactions.
<maaku>
kanzure: security comes from censorship-resistance, censorship-resistance derived from dynamic membership
<ibrightly>
Transactions included can't be invalid or else clients will reject or at least be aware of the 'lie' created by the centralized miner.
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<bsm1175321>
Taek: hit me up.
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<veqtrus>
Hi! Regarding the draft segwit bip, wouldn't it be less ugly to redefine a NOP to CHECKSEGWITVERIFY instead of redefining the meaning of a single data push?
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<adlai>
veqtrus: NOPs are a scarce resource, single data pushes are ugly and this gives them meaning and purpose
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<veqtrus>
adlai: aren't there any plans to introduce more nops as part of some hard fork? we have quite a lot of unused single byte values.
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<adlai>
nah, there are enough NOPs, and too many hard fork wishlists.
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* adlai
hopes all the excitement and support is due to wizards enjoying the new year; which indeed, they should :)
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<merlincorey>
adlai: I'm a literal wizard and I am interested in the long term survival of bitcoin, but I'm not clear how going to Facebook is going to help anything, nor how it would hurt anything if I did not
<merlincorey>
what are you implementing / proposing to implement, and how will it save bitcoin, from what exactly?
<adlai>
think of it as a way for probing existing communication channels for the channel operator's resistence to being the fallback in case bitcoin's gossip network suddenly stops working
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<adlai>
specifically, this'd be (if anybody built it, which nobody will, because it's a subtle joke, like most else...) a replacement for the broadcast channel. 144MB/day, times the bloat factor, is a lot less than most 'social media' handles without batting an eyelid
<kanzure>
adlai: you mean bitcoin transaction serialization into english-readable words?
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<adlai>
s/transaction/block/ but yes
<merlincorey>
so basically streaming the blockchain into tweets or something?
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<adlai>
sure, or into any other social media... that's the less relevant part. the Purpose would be to probe a medium's readiness to functioning as a backup to bitcoin's block broadcast, should something happen to the existing system.
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<adam3us>
i quite liked jgarzik's bitcoin sattelite idea.
<adlai>
it's a good one, the atmosphere can't exactly censor anything... but it's a tad expensive, too
* adlai
liked radio broadcast, esp. repurposing old frequencies licensed to dead/dying cable propaganda
<adlai>
"cable" here used in the general sense of the ter
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<Guest2324>
adam3us: ping
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<Guest2324>
adam3us: you mentioned "a number of wallets and processors already voiced support or said they planned to do simultaneous release with segregated-witness". thats cool. which wallets and processors are planning to do that?
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<adam3us>
Guest1234:greenAddress and hiveWallet said so publicly. others would have to speak for themselves. (there can be competitive advantage to being first in terms of poaching users and/or offering lower fees/faster clearing)
<paleh0rse>
anyone from btci around?
<Guest2324>
adam3us: what about the statement that "it is an intentionally decentralised development team" in reference to Bitcoin Core, by my count you employ 11-12 of them for some definition of employ
<Guest2324>
curious what your metric for decentralization in development is there
<maaku>
Guest2324: there is never a requirement that development is decentralized
<Guest2324>
also thats cool re: greenaddress and hivewallet, i thought hive wallet development was abaonded
<paleh0rse>
would be cool if it was, though. ;)
<Guest2324>
maaku: adam3us said it was and intentionally so. curious how he came to that position given the circumstances.
<adam3us>
Guest1234: which project are you working on if you dont mind me reciprocating the questioning
<Guest2324>
im not working on anything
<paleh0rse>
Guest2324: perhaps the mere possibility that anyone can fork is enough to meet Adam's definition of decentralized? just guessing, not trying to speak for anyone
* maaku
seriously wonders what the fuss over "decentralize the development" is. *what does that even mean*
<adam3us>
Guest1234: are you working on promoting any forks of bitcoin? just curious of your motivations.
<adlai>
how about "make it so a single asteroid is not likely to kill all the mindshare"
<paleh0rse>
maaku: perhaps simply a system that allows some sort of voting by anyone/everyone for every commit. also perhaps unrealistic... but, not necessarily a future impossibility
<adlai>
at least, the other guys will die of sunlight deprivation etc
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<maaku>
paleh0rse: and that would be good, why? what would that achieve?
<Guest2324>
adam3us: not actively promoting a particular fork. i find all the fear of a fork interesting though
<kanzure>
it's not a fear, it's disinterest.
<adlai>
maaku: my guess is that the fear stems from a misplaced beliefs that individual developers, or even a group of them, can change the core rules... it doesn't help that the other cartel mistakenly thought to have any power over the rules has openly said they want developers to play a stronger dictator game
<paleh0rse>
maaku: im just describing what it could possibly mean, not putting forth ANY sort of opinion on it. what good would it be? in some minds, it would prevent/replace singular control over commits to Core itself.
<maaku>
adlai: that makes sense
* adlai
is not attacking anybody here, except maybe the pool operators.
<kanzure>
voting cannot prevent singular control over commits, that's impossible
<Guest2324>
the system was meant to be goverend solely by hashpower. thats why i find it very interesting when others claim that shouldn't be the case
<adlai>
Guest2324: no, the system is not governed.
<kanzure>
the system was not meant to be governed by hashpower, that's also impossible
<adlai>
the system exists, either it works or it doesn't. hashpower serves to produce consensus over its state.
<paleh0rse>
kanzure: u may be correct, but i always hate using the word "impossible"
<kanzure>
paleh0rse: impossible using current tech
<Guest2324>
"They vote with their CPU power, expressing their acceptance of
<Guest2324>
valid blocks by working on extending them and rejecting invalid blocks by refusing to work on
<maaku>
paleh0rse: core committers work by consensus, which in this case means any controversial commit would be reverted by one of the other committers
<Guest2324>
them. Any needed rules and incentives can be enforced with this consensus mechanism."
<paleh0rse>
kanzure: much more accurate ;)
<Guest2324>
i only see one consensus mechanism cited
<maaku>
someone with a better memory can drum up references of when this has actually happened, as it has on multiple occasions
<kanzure>
maaku: i wouldn't say that core always works by consensus (e.g., ACKs from every conceivable person, is not the goal)
* adlai
mumbles something about reverting p2sh and redoing it the right way
<adlai>
it's ~only~ 10% of existing utxos...
<maaku>
kanzure: rough consensus
<maaku>
"you know it when you see it"
<paleh0rse>
maaku: this i know. :)
<maaku>
it's a merit based system, so it's a little obscure to outsiders...
<maaku>
also this is way off-topic for -wizards
<adlai>
Guest2324: so, consensus in that quote refers to consensus over state, within a set of rules. the rules don't change, because you wouldn't know who to trust about which changes are good or bad.
<kanzure>
maaku: w/e, i don't know if it's useful to say the word consensus there. it confuses the topic because bitcoin ledger history consensus is another thing, and apparently the terminology is too confusing for everyone.
<maaku>
kanzure: agree on the confusion, but "rough consensus" is the industry term and I don't know a better phrase...
<Guest2324>
adlai: maybe i'm going blind in my old age but: "Any needed rules and incentives can be enforced with this consensus mechanism."
<paleh0rse>
consensus... more consensus... coinbase... more Coinbase. lol, our lex has been confusing for years
<adlai>
Guest2324: maybe satoshi went senile in quotation.
<kanzure>
maaku: merit. if wladimir was ever to start doing releases with stuff that is poorly reasoned, all the other developers would just go do some other client or leave etc.
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<adlai>
Guest2324: how about you voice your misconceptions in your own words, in #bitcoin
<maaku>
kanzure: actually wladimir couldn't push a release.. that part is decentralized
<kanzure>
agreed regarding off-topicness
<maaku>
(gitian signatures)
<adam3us>
Guest1234: it is a subtle point but actually it is the economically dependent full nodes that enforce consensus rules not miners; miners follow.
<kanzure>
maaku: i wouldn't call that decentralized, but i agree wladimir can't push a release on his own like that, true
<adlai>
kanzure: we seem to have reached broad consensus on off-topicness
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<paleh0rse>
anyways, i just came to find out if anyone can explain an interesting anomoly in the btci My Wallet data today -- it's probably bad data, but if not... anyone want the link? i'll pm
<Guest2324>
adam3us: he didn't menton economically dependent full nodes. he mentioned CPU power.
<Guest2324>
mention
<adlai>
paleh0rse: also for that, you're more likely to find people who care about that stuff in another channel.
<kanzure>
he was wrong. it turns out it's not about CPU power at all.
<jcorgan>
paleh0rse: #bitcoin please
<Guest2324>
i doubt it was an oversight
<paleh0rse>
adlai: if real, this would interest everyone in bitcoin
<maaku>
Guest2324: satoshi was clueless about tons of shit
<Guest2324>
lol
<kanzure>
you can be wrong even without an oversight
<jcorgan>
Guest2324: #bitcoin
<adlai>
but "btci" aren't "in bitcoin", so it interests nobody in this channel.
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<adlai>
plot twist: Guest2324 is satoshi, drunk on new year's, trolling the lemmings who slave while he waits.
<Guest2324>
by my count the only one who's been right about anything has been satoshi
<kanzure>
wow we have ops now. cool.
<Guest2324>
wouldn't want to get in the way of the FUD spreading. take care.
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Guest1234 was kicked from #bitcoin-wizards by jcorgan [Guest1234]
<kanzure>
i think you kicked the wrong guest?
<kanzure>
ah there were two.
<jcorgan>
yeah, misfire
<paleh0rse>
lol n1
<adlai>
picking up the thread about the "consensus" misconception, which I do think is half-on-topic here: much misunderstanding stems from people conflating consensus over system state, and consensus over the consensus system's rules;
<kanzure>
luke-jr was mentioning earlier that he has had to remind people about this misconception, and that he has even caught himself making the same mistake (so have i)
<paleh0rse>
most of reddit doesnt understand the distinction, but some do. would be too painful to explain it every time the uses are conflated
<kanzure>
(i mean, i've caught myself, not caught him doing that)
<adlai>
and much more noise, lately, stems from people conflating voluntary addition of new rules, which miners can and should do at developer suggestion, and voluntary elision of old rules, which nobody should ever do if they want to be certain they're using Bitcoin
<maaku>
it's a meta-level mistake. the rules of the game are fixed; we achieve consensus over the results
<jcorgan>
paleh0rse: r/bitcoin is the youtube comment section of bitcoin
<adlai>
the real confusion begins when voluntary new rules become so routine that we start to think the involuntary permanent rules are all voluntary at some level
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<maaku>
it's a one-way street. you can add a rule, but you can never* take one away
<maaku>
(*turns out you always can take away rules, but in an unfriendly way)
<adlai>
r/bitcoin has improved a little since the angry humans left to 'uncensored' subs, leaving just confused humans and 'men at work'
<paleh0rse>
jcorgan to an extent, i agree. however, you wont find me patronizing anyone on reddit either.
<adlai>
the unfriendliness is relative, and measurable; for example, removing the p2sh rule would be inconsiderate towards ~10% of bitcoin-ownerships, but it wouldn't "break bitcoin"
* adlai
is not advocating this, just thinking out loud
<maaku>
adlai: I meant something different, the hard-fork-as-a-soft-fork idea
<paleh0rse>
jcorgan no need to put forth any air of superiority. the entire community plays a role in the success/failure, not just wizards
<maaku>
paleh0rse: r/bitcoin is a tiny, not representative segment of the community though
<paleh0rse>
maaku as someone who is working on private projects, im a nobody to you; but, it doesnt mean im a nobody. (this is an example)
<paleh0rse>
^^not making it personal, just pointing out that some on reddit, including myself, are more than just bored at work. we go there to educate, debate, etc... mainly because IRC is blocked at work for me, and i cant share my projects anyways. :(
<maaku>
paleh0rse: what I mean is there are millions of people using bitcoin world-wide. there are maybe a few thousand active people on r/bitcoin. r/bitcoin's echochamber should not be mistaken for community voice
<paleh0rse>
maaku oh, absolutely agree. i like all my info multi-source. :)
<adlai>
r/BitcoinMarkets has dubious economic significance, but much better SNR than any of the general subs
<maaku>
i appreciate the work you do on r/bitcoin, but I'm just saying we shouldn't take "reddit thinks X" as "the users have spoken in favor of X"
<paleh0rse>
adlai: as ana ctive trader, i'd agree with that too
<paleh0rse>
maaku: ACK again
<paleh0rse>
i just dont completely dimiss it
<paleh0rse>
reddit is reddit.
<paleh0rse>
there are jewels there... hidden, but still there.
* adlai
prefers "meatspace reddit" for educating redditors
<adlai>
aka meatups, buying/selling small amounts from desperate impulse-traders, hacking outside the home, etc
<adlai>
then you ask them a question or two, and another few...
<adlai>
s/from/to/, ie, "offer it and they will come"
* adlai
would like to discuss joinmarket with paleh0rse (the self-professed 'active trader'), if this is too OT we can take it to PM or #joinmarket
<paleh0rse>
i havent used it
<adlai>
you don't have to use it, it generates financial data far more accurate than anything Nic Cagey acts out
<paleh0rse>
lol
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<paleh0rse>
ok
<adlai>
bitcoin has an interest rate! in hebrew the portmanteau is "ribitcoin"...
<adlai>
("ribit" = interest)
<paleh0rse>
hmm, k
<jcorgan>
ok guys, let's get -wizards back on topic
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* adlai
returns to #joinmarket, hopes paleh0rse and/or other curious lurkers follow
<kanzure>
yes this is off-topic again.
<adlai>
topic-space is best defined by its edges
<paleh0rse>
by the way, i meant bc.i earlier (ref the data anomoly), not btci... sorry, tired. anyone interested in link to data im talking about, send pm
<paleh0rse>
im out for a bit.
<paleh0rse>
HAPPY NEW YEAR
<paleh0rse>
(it was ref a 1 million coin internal movement in their wallets today).