sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<Logicwax>
with BIP65, if nLocktime is being used for a different purpose (min age of outputs)....is nLocktime ignored when determining if a TX is valid to be mined? (the original use of nLocktime)
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<Logicwax>
i get confused when i read "OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY checks if the original TX nLockTime is larger than the most recent block"
<Logicwax>
to me thags confusing, because wouldnt that previous TX not be mined if its nLockTime was in the future?
<sipa>
txn with nLockTime values that are in the future are not valid in the blockchain
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<Logicwax>
thats what i thought....so with bip65 is that ignored?
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<sipa>
no
<Logicwax>
how does a bip65 TX get mined if its nLockTime is set to some time in the future?
<sipa>
bip65 allows a transaction to put a constraint on the nLockTime of the transaction spending it
<Logicwax>
ah...
<sipa>
indirectly that impacts when that transaction can go into the blockchain
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<sipa>
and i think you're confusing things with bip112, which is like bip65, but with relative time rather than absolute time
<Logicwax>
so bip65 would mean the TX puts a rule that the future TX spending that has to have a nLockTime meeting some min requirement (while also, obviously meeting the requirement of nLockTime's original use, which is no time in the future)
<Logicwax>
na...i mean absolute
<sipa>
right; OP_CLTV sets a constraint on nLockTime; nLockTime sets a constraint on block chain inclusion
<Logicwax>
i was just confused as to whether nLockTime gets ignored like how sequences get repurposed in 112
<Logicwax>
ok i get it
<Logicwax>
thanks
<sipa>
no, we can't change nLockTime's semantics, that would be a hardfork
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<sipa>
nSequence however has no consensus rules associated with it, so BIP68 assigns it some first
<Logicwax>
yea
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<bramc>
The set containing exactly one element is a really, really annoying edge case
<bsm117532>
Seems like it would be easy to special case everywhere?
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<bramc>
bsm117532 Yes it's easy, but it's also hella annoying
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<jl2012>
Could we use duplex payment channel now? or do we also need segwit?
<sipa>
we need ntxid or segwit
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<JackH>
is ntxid exlusively needed for duplex channels, or does it apply to lightning as well?
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<jl2012>
sipa: didn't they say we have "level 1 LN" with CLTV? So the "level 1 LN" is not based on the duplex channel?
<JackH>
they are different projects, but what I understand myself is that CSV is level 2 for LN
<JackH>
while the ntxid is for duplex exclusively? that I am not sure of
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<JackH>
ntxid strips the signatures from the tx id's
<jl2012>
segwit is effectively ntxid, afaik
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<JackH>
yes but I believe its also much more than that
<JackH>
normalized tx ids have been planned since mtgox
<jl2012>
the ntxid for mtgox has no consensus meaning
<JackH>
true
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<jl2012>
sipa: for your segwit implemention, you restrict the length of the segwit script to 2-41 bytes. Does it mean if one wants to have a multisig witness programme with P2SH, he must use the version 0x01 witness programme? So that becomes a double P2SH?
<phantomcircuit>
JackH, lightning is hash locked duplex micropayment channels
<phantomcircuit>
if you can get the duplex micropayment channels to work the hash locking will work
<phantomcircuit>
the issue currently is that the channel open transaction can be mutated which would cause both participants funds to be locked up until both parties signed the new transaction
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<phantomcircuit>
the problem with that is if the payments are imbalanced or the time priority of money is imbalanced then one participant can effectively hold the others money hostage
<phantomcircuit>
jl2012, ^
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<jl2012>
thanks. I think I still have a lot to read
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<sipa>
jl2012: yes, there is no reason to put complex scripts in the scriptPubKey
<phantomcircuit>
sipa, as in all outputs should be using p2sh, not that the logical script pub key would never need to be complex, correct?