sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<bramc>
Observations for today: (1) You can check if something is included faster if you aren't making a proof, because in a balanced section of the tree you can skip down (2) marking something as being empty by giving it a special value is a lot more shit to check than marking it in the medatada byte
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<maaku_>
duplex channels work with CLTV, but are only efficient with certain usage assumptions, since the tradeoffs of timelock vs safety are annoying
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<jl2012>
i think the duplex channel is a realization of Satoshi's original vision with nSequence, consensus enforced. Can't wait for OP_CSV and segwit
<jl2012>
my guesstimation is CSV in 2 months and segwit in 6 months?
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<jl2012>
What is the main obstacles of committing the UTXO set in every block? Because it takes too long to calculate the hash?
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<bsm117532>
jl2012: Yes.
<jl2012>
thanks
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<Taek>
There's more to it. It's a lot of code complexity, and there are a lot of different ways to approach the problem
<Taek>
also, it's really only useful for SPV security
<Taek>
not that we shouldn't enhance SPV security, but the amount of effort + risk required to pull off utxo commitments didn't really match the reward
<Taek>
afaik there have been a lot of people that have worked on it more than a trivial amount, but nobody has presented a full solution yet
<instagibbs>
bramc is the latest to take a whack at it. Apparently there are lots of design tradeoffs to be considered.
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<jl2012>
has anyone considered a delayed utxo commitment? For example, block X will commit to the utxo of block X-8, so that will provide enough time to calculate the hash
<sipa>
yes
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<sipa>
:)
<sipa>
imho it's the only type of utxo commitment that is viable to implement in the short term
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<jl2012>
ok, I have a draft for that already and obviously I reinvent some exisiting idea again.
<sipa>
i was even thinking about only one commitment every day or week, and commit to the state one day or week back
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<jl2012>
similar idea here..... my idea is to have commitment every 8 blocks, and have spent TXO commitment in every block
<jl2012>
so a relatively compact proof could be generated for any fraud for every block
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<instagibbs>
what's the relative cost of validating *txo commitments vs constructing in the most recent schemes?
<sipa>
?
<instagibbs>
so im a miner, i receive a block with utxo commitment from 144 blocks ago
<instagibbs>
i have to validate it before mining on top(?)
<instagibbs>
so the miner who creates the block is able to take its time to construct it, but everyone validating doesn't?
<sipa>
yes, every full node will need to do that
<sipa>
no, he has 144 blocks time to compute it
<sipa>
and so does everyone else
<instagibbs>
oh.... yes
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<instagibbs>
everyone constructs the tree for every arriving block then in case a commitment is made
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* instagibbs
still waiting for a nice txo wiki as I'm way behind
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<jl2012>
instagibbs: check https://8333.info later. I'm trying to collect these idea
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