sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<dcousens>
CodeShark: you ACK'd SegWit, but for what party? :P
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<bsm1175321>
But at the end of the day, the cost of storage is really just a proxy for the energy used to produce it. Everything comes back to energy.
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<bsm1175321>
Both CPU and storage have a cost of production, and a linear in time energy usage (even if storage uses less power). If their power distribution curves were wildly different this might make more sense, but they're exactly the same with different slopes. I can integrate these two curves and figure out how much energy went in, and that's how much a combined PoW/PoST will be worth.
<bsm1175321>
There's also a very large "external" majority of storage that could be taken over by a botnet/virus, to mine a currency based on something like this. And unlike CPU, you're not going to ASIC your way out of the existence of this external storage.
<bsm1175321>
TL;DR I'm confused why so many others are excited about proof-of-storage...
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<bramc>
bsm117532 The difference is there's already plenty of sunk cost into storage media already sitting around doing nothing
<zookolaptop>
*popcorn*
<Taek>
bramc: hopefully not for much longer :)
<zookolaptop>
*lol*
<zookolaptop>
Round one to Taek!
<bramc>
The naming on that paper and timing of it is a bit suspicious, I wonder if they got the idea directly or indirectly from me
<gmaxwell>
bramc: I know I was surprised to not find your name in it!
<bramc>
Hrm, apparently they didn't get it from me, this scheme is much cruder than what I've come up with. Maybe it's time for me to do an at least reasonable writeup of my ideas.
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<bramc>
Also I think their 'candidate construction' is the same one I and everybody else came up with, which is unfortunately busted.
<bramc>
Sigh, their construction is even more busted than that, because it has no canonicalization properties at all.
<bsm1175321>
bramc: I'd like someone to address my argument about the "external majority" and botnets/criminals taking advantage of it.
<bramc>
bsm117532 Not sure what your argument is
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<bramc>
And, um, maybe the proof of space in this paper does work. It seems to be along the lines of my hoped for fixing of the busted simple algorithm rather than that pebble crap
<zookolaptop>
bsm1175321: one of my counter-arguments to that is "It didn't kill Bitcoin."
<zookolaptop>
bsm1175321: the older I get (and I'm getting a *lot* older) the more empirical I get.
<zookolaptop>
Whatever worked, or at least didn't fail too hard, before, is good enough for me. ;-)
<bsm1175321>
bramc: There is a large amount of storage that is unused on internet-connected PC's. A botnet could use it to mine coins that used proof-of-space, and easily perform a 51% attack.
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<gmaxwell>
Bitcoin's creator argued the botnet operators would make more behaving honestly.. for bitcoin that worked out.
<gmaxwell>
The logic isn't necessarily the same for arbritary altcoins.
<bramc>
bsm117532 That isn't a crypto problem
<zookolaptop>
gmaxwell: good warning against the dangers of naive empiricism.
<gmaxwell>
(e.g. you're j-cracker, bitcoin existing and working is pretty obviously in your interest. Litecoin227-the-revernge... not so obviously)
<bsm1175321>
bramc: certainly not a crypto problem...but a practical problem... ;-)
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<bsm1175321>
Don't underestimate the value of being small, new, and poorly understood, in giving bitcoin a window with few attackers.
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<bsm1175321>
Also the value in bitcoin working properly because it was good for extortion...so botnets encrypt your drive instead :-/
<gmaxwell>
when botnet operators were running bitcoin it was well known how to behave maliciously, and people did reorg attack some altcoins; e.g. IOcoin (or was it IXcoin?)
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<bsm1175321>
gmaxwell: I'd love it if someday someone could assemble a history of altcoins...there's lots of lore that predates my activity.
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<roconnor>
gmaxwell: hi
<gmaxwell>
roconnor: HI
<frankenmint>
bsm1175321: mapofcoins.com
<frankenmint>
but maybe first enjoy historyofbitcoin.com
<bsm1175321>
Thanks frankenmint, I was hoping for a map of forks that matter though! :-P
<bsm1175321>
historyofbitcoin is gone
<frankenmint>
hmm maybe its org
<frankenmint>
yup its .org
<bsm1175321>
I've spent some time looking at the bitcoin git commit history. It's a horrible mess...
<frankenmint>
blah blah idk go fix it instead of complaining /s
<frankenmint>
;)
<bsm1175321>
;-) just difficult to diff with scamcoins.
<gmaxwell>
many things don't matter but for some single fact.
<bsm1175321>
That's *definitely* not worth my time to fix.
<frankenmint>
Engineering does not solve social problems, historically it creates governance problems as opposed to solving them. No amount of engineering is going to fix this, and believing it will, will only make the problem worse.
<frankenmint>
Bitcoin itself was supposed to solve the governance problem, and it was engineered to do so (remember consensus?).
<frankenmint>
what do you guys think of that statement?
<bsm1175321>
e.g. some coin attempted to make a really fast block time. I'd like to know what it is, what happened, etc...
<frankenmint>
I keep pasting externally and the prepending sentance is ignored
<frankenmint>
pasting from an external source and ...
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<Guest87980>
hello
<Guest87980>
please can someone help me build th e bitcoin classic for ubuntu server 14.04
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<op_null2_>
try #bitcoin-classic
<bsm1175321>
Oh god they didn't make a channel, did they?
<Guest87980>
there is no one awake in this
<op_null2_>
this guys is just trolling anyway, theres no code out for classic yet
<op_null2_>
so i troll back
<op_null2_>
trolololol
<Guest87980>
i have the codes from github
<op_null2_>
its the same as core right now
<op_null2_>
they havent merged any changes
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<Guest87980>
Почему это дерьмо не строить
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<op_null2_>
^ (why does this shit not build) translation
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* andy-logbot
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<phoenix_>
hey wizards: any thoughts on whether the network will fork towards classic?
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<adlai>
phoenix_: that's way off-topic for this channel... "not about short-term Bitcoin development" so try #bitcoin. but I doubt you'll find any regulars here in favor of breaking consensus rules over political fads and fashions.
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<wallet42>
whats the difference of segwit, segwit2, segwit3?
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<Taek>
I had a thought this morning. Mental digital signatures, for typing passwords into your phone or computer in public places
<Taek>
the computer presents a challenge, you use some key to convert to a signature (password), then you type that in
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<amiller>
Taek, even mental pwdhash would be pretty cool
<amiller>
i'd also really like mental public key generation
<Taek>
for my purposes, I'd be happy as long as the key didn't leak until at least 4 examples
<Taek>
even 2 would be a substantial improvement
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<brg444>
Taek that's kinda like how Ledger does the 2 factor without the cellphone
<Taek>
It's not really my field, but it'd be cool if someone could find some simple mental math that would hide a key from cryptanalysis for a very small number of 'challenge' -> 'answer' pairings
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<Taek>
brg444: is there a link to the paper?
<Taek>
or explanation
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<brg444>
Taek there's not a detailed explanation on their website but what I'm referring to is their "security card", looks like this https://www.ledgerwallet.com/wallet/keycard
<Taek>
amiller: hashing would be sufficient, because the computer is allowed to know the secret. You don't need to be able to verify from a public key
<amiller>
i see
<Taek>
brg444: thanks, that helps. The problem is that if you are in a public place, referencing the card isn't any better because the people around you can see the card as well. Imagine getting cuaght on security footage
<brg444>
Taek Right, so you're thinking of a mental key?
<brg444>
ah yes just read upstream
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<bsm117532>
Taek: A mental key...to prevent your "security footage" attack you'd need a nonce, to prevent replay attacks.
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<bsm117532>
Any kind of crypto in which I could be given a nonce, hold a secret in my head, and compute an authentication input in my head...would be ridiculously cool.
<waxwing>
bsm117532: 12-24 seed phrase munged with the nonce perhaps? wouldn't be surprised if you could do it without a computer. might be tedious though.
<waxwing>
yeah i think it might be very tedious
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<bsm117532>
I wonder if one could devise some kind of sequential operation on the computer to get the computer to do the hard parts of the math, without leaking the secret. (e.g. click on one of these 36 boxes...)
<bsm117532>
Hmmm I'm sure it would leak the secret...
<waxwing>
yes, nice. the trouble is to make something where you can hold *everything* in your head (well, for a normal person)
<bsm117532>
I wonder if you could use a variant of ZKP, and issue a series of binary challenges to the user...
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<waxwing>
i'm reminded of my crappy online banking system 'enter 1st, 5th and 7th letter of your password'. 12 words plus simple nonce offset and choice of letters - would that be enough? assume fairly small nonce.
<fluffypony>
lol waxwing - my old Internet banking here (Absa) had the same thing
<waxwing>
nonce could represent how to permute each letter, and which letters to choose. probably a complete swiss cheese idea :)
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<ryan-c`>
gmaxwell: I'm not sure if you care, but using secp256k1_gej_add_ge_var to increment keys was about 40% faster than incrementing the private key and computing the public key using a 15GB ec multiply table
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<gmaxwell>
Slower than expected. Are you using wnaf or the doubling free design like signing?
<gmaxwell>
I mean the huge table was slower than I expected.
<ryan-c`>
I specifically wanted an incremental search, so I don't think I can just double.
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<ryan-c`>
the huge table as a 150% speed up (2.5x original speed)
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<gmaxwell>
you didn't answer my question. What is the table geometry?
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<ryan-c`>
I am not sure how that code works - a grad student wrote it. It's in the file I linked yesterday though, let me find it.
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<Zigon>
So, I was refered to this chan by a friend of mine. To my knowledge this is a more knowledge driven, less idle chat irc. Is there a secondary chan for idle talking/simple inquiries?
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