#bitcoin-wizards on 2016-01-29 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

2015-10-30 00:53 sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja

00:00 erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:00 funkenstein_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:02 erasmosp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:02 DougieBot5000 has quit [Quit: Leaving]

00:04 mkarrer has quit []

00:05 erasmospunk has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]

00:06 erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:06 erasmosp_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

00:08 erasmosp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:10 erasmos__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:11 erasmospunk has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]

00:11 erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:12 erasmosp_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

00:13 erasmosp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:14 mkarrer has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:14 erasmos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]

00:15 erasmos__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:16 erasmospunk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]

00:17 erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:18 erasmosp_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

00:18 murch has quit [Quit: Leaving.]

00:19 erasmosp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:20 erasmos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

00:21 erasmos__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:22 jposner has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:22 erasmospunk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]

00:23 erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:24 erasmosp_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]

00:25 erasmosp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:25 erasmos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

00:26 PRab has quit [Remote host closed the connection]

00:27 erasmos__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:27 PRab has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:28 erasmospunk has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]

00:28 erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:29 erasmosp_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

00:30 rusty has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:30 erasmosp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:31 erasmos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]

00:32 erasmos__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:33 tachys has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:33 erasmospunk has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

00:34 erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:35 erasmosp_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]

00:36 erasmosp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:37 erasmos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

00:38 erasmos__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:39 erasmospunk has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

00:40 erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:41 erasmosp_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

00:42 erasmosp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:43 erasmos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]

00:44 erasmos__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:45 erasmospunk has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]

00:45 AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

00:46 erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:47 erasmosp_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]

00:47 priidu has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:48 erasmosp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:48 erasmos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

00:49 erasmos__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:50 mrkent has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:51 erasmospunk has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]

00:51 erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:52 tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

00:52 erasmosp_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]

00:52 p15 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

00:53 mrkent_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]

00:53 erasmosp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:54 erasmos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

00:54 oneeman has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:55 bit2017 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

00:55 erasmos__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:56 erasmospunk has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

00:57 erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:58 tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:58 RoboTeddy has quit [Remote host closed the connection]

00:59 erasmosp_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]

00:59 erasmosp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

00:59 RoboTeddy has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:00 erasmos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]

01:01 erasmos__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:01 erasmospunk has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

01:03 erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:03 erasmosp_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

01:04 alpalp has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:04 alpalp has quit [Changing host]

01:04 alpalp has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:05 erasmosp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:05 erasmos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]

01:07 erasmos__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:07 gielbier has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]

01:08 erasmospunk has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]

01:08 erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:09 erasmosp_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

01:10 erasmosp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:12 c-cex-yuriy has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]

01:12 erasmos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]

01:12 hsmiths__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:13 erasmospunk has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

01:13 dnaleor has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]

01:14 erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:15 erasmosp_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]

01:16 erasmosp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:16 dnaleor has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:17 gielbier has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:18 erasmos__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:19 erasmospunk has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]

01:20 erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:20 rubensayshi has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

01:21 erasmosp_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]

01:22 erasmosp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:23 erasmos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]

01:23 dnaleor has quit [Remote host closed the connection]

01:24 erasmos__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:24 erasmospunk has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]

01:25 psztorc has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)]

01:26 erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:26 psztorc has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:27 erasmosp_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]

01:28 erasmosp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:29 erasmos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]

01:29 RoboTeddy has quit [Remote host closed the connection]

01:29 RoboTeddy has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:30 erasmos__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:30 erasmospunk has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

01:31 dnaleor has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:32 erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:33 erasmosp_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]

01:33 rubensayshi has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:34 erasmosp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:34 erasmos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]

01:36 erasmos__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:36 erasmospunk has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]

01:37 T23WS has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:38 erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:38 erasmosp_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

01:40 erasmosp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:40 erasmos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]

01:42 erasmos__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:42 T23WS has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]

01:42 joesmoe has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]

01:43 erasmospunk has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]

01:44 erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:44 brg444 has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:44 bit2017 has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:44 erasmosp_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

01:45 tachys has quit [Remote host closed the connection]

01:46 erasmospunk has quit [Remote host closed the connection]

01:46 erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:46 erasmos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

01:47 jtimon has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]

01:47 c0rw1n is now known as c0rw|zZz

01:48 erasmosp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:50 joesmoe has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:50 erasmos__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:51 erasmospunk has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]

01:52 erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:53 erasmosp_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]

01:54 erasmosp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:54 erasmos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

01:56 psztorc has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)]

01:56 erasmos__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:56 funkenstein_ has left #bitcoin-wizards ["Leaving"]

01:57 erasmospunk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]

01:57 psztorc has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:58 voxelot has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:58 erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards

01:59 erasmosp_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

02:00 erasmosp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

02:00 erasmos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

02:02 erasmos__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

02:03 erasmospunk has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

02:05 erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards

02:05 erasmosp_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]

02:05 belcher has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

02:07 erasmosp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

02:08 erasmos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]

02:09 erasmos__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

02:09 erasmospunk has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

02:11 erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards

02:11 erasmosp_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]

02:13 erasmosp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

02:13 DougieBot5000 has joined #bitcoin-wizards

02:14 erasmos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]

02:15 erasmos__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

02:15 erasmospunk has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]

02:17 erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards

02:18 erasmosp_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]

02:19 erasmosp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

02:20 erasmos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

02:21 erasmos__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

02:21 erasmospunk has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

02:23 tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]

02:23 erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards

02:24 erasmosp_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]

02:26 erasmosp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

02:26 erasmos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]

02:26 psztorc has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)]

02:27 psztorc has joined #bitcoin-wizards

02:27 tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards

02:28 erasmos__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

02:28 erasmospunk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]

02:30 erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards

02:31 erasmosp_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]

02:32 mrkent_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

02:33 erasmos__ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]

02:34 adlie has joined #bitcoin-wizards

02:35 mountaingoat has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]

02:35 mrkent has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]

02:35 erasmospunk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]

02:35 tachys has joined #bitcoin-wizards

02:40 tachys has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]

02:41 mrkent_ has quit []

02:43 bit2017 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

02:45 Newyorkadam has joined #bitcoin-wizards

02:46 mountaingoat has joined #bitcoin-wizards

02:48 binns has joined #bitcoin-wizards

02:50 BTC_Angler has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]

02:54 bit2017 has joined #bitcoin-wizards

02:57 psztorc has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)]

02:57 binns has quit [Quit: leaving]

03:09 oneeman has quit [Quit: Leaving]

03:12 psztorc has joined #bitcoin-wizards

03:16 zooko has joined #bitcoin-wizards

03:16 priidu has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

03:16 dnaleor has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

03:20 roconnor has joined #bitcoin-wizards

03:23 hashtag has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

03:24 [ace]_ is now known as [ace]

03:25 binns has joined #bitcoin-wizards

03:29 brg444 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]

03:31 bityogi has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]

03:36 bramc has joined #bitcoin-wizards

03:38 dEBRUYNE has quit [Quit: Leaving]

03:40 bramc has quit [Client Quit]

03:45 Tasoshi has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]

03:46 Oizopower has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]

03:52 tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]

03:57 tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards

04:05 Newyorkadam has quit [Quit: Newyorkadam]

04:06 voxelot has quit [Remote host closed the connection]

04:06 Newyorkadam has joined #bitcoin-wizards

04:13 binns has quit [Quit: brb]

04:15 binns has joined #bitcoin-wizards

04:30 BTC_Angler has joined #bitcoin-wizards

04:31 sCOGSBY has joined #bitcoin-wizards

04:34 sparetire has quit [Quit: sparetire]

04:37 tachys has joined #bitcoin-wizards

04:41 tachys_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

04:42 tachys has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

04:45 tachys_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]

04:47 supasonic has joined #bitcoin-wizards

04:52 zwischenzug has joined #bitcoin-wizards

04:53 tachys has joined #bitcoin-wizards

04:57 TheSeven has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

04:57 tachys has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]

04:59 TheSeven has joined #bitcoin-wizards

05:17 sparetire_ has quit [Quit: sparetire_]

05:21 tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]

05:26 zooko has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]

05:28 tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards

05:32 zwischenzug has left #bitcoin-wizards ["Leaving"]

05:33 Newyorkadam has quit [Quit: Newyorkadam]

05:41 jposner has quit [Remote host closed the connection]

05:56 supasonic has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

06:01 darmou has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]

06:04 Giszmo has quit [Quit: Leaving.]

06:05 erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards

06:07 priidu has joined #bitcoin-wizards

06:10 erasmospunk has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]

06:18 phiche1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards

06:20 phiche has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

06:22 rusty has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

06:27 p15 has joined #bitcoin-wizards

06:28 hsmiths__ has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]

06:37 <kanzure> BlueMatt: Luke-Jr: what is busted about extension blocks?

06:38 <BlueMatt> yea, give me a sec...5 conversations at once :(

06:46 ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards

06:50 <phantomcircuit> kanzure, nothing, they just require anybody who wants to use them to use new software

06:51 <BlueMatt> worse, they strongly, strongly push everyone to the new software

06:51 <BlueMatt> unlike all the other soft-forks we've done where you can upgrade at your leisure as you need the updates

06:52 tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

06:52 <BlueMatt> it is also an extreme segwit where the blocksize (ie a critical parameter in centralization pressure) is changed by miners, not users

06:52 <BlueMatt> which is pretty anti-bitcoin

06:53 <BlueMatt> generally, it seems very anti-bitcoin-ideals...puts too much control in the hands of miners

06:54 <kanzure> i believe that's the case for all of the soft-hard fork variants.

06:54 <kanzure> (i mean the subtype that is called "soft-hard fork")

06:55 <BlueMatt> indeed, it is

06:55 <BlueMatt> though I'm not actually sure what your exact definition thereof is

06:55 <BlueMatt> but I assume its the case :)

06:57 <kanzure> same definition as adam3us

06:57 <kanzure> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1296628.msg13400092#msg13400092

06:57 <kanzure> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/012172.html

06:57 tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards

07:07 Linus_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

07:08 Transisto2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards

07:08 DougieBot5000 has quit [Quit: Leaving]

07:09 T23WS has joined #bitcoin-wizards

07:11 psztorc has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)]

07:12 psztorc has joined #bitcoin-wizards

07:12 T23WS has quit [Client Quit]

07:15 T23WS has joined #bitcoin-wizards

07:18 adam3us1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards

07:18 adam3us1 has quit [Client Quit]

07:18 adam3us1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards

07:18 shesek has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

07:20 adam3us has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

07:26 BTC_Angler has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]

07:28 mrkent has joined #bitcoin-wizards

07:32 Linus_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]

07:39 phiche has joined #bitcoin-wizards

07:40 phiche1 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

07:41 psztorc has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)]

07:45 hashtag has joined #bitcoin-wizards

07:58 damethos has joined #bitcoin-wizards

08:14 rusty has joined #bitcoin-wizards

08:15 adam3us1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]

08:15 adam3us has joined #bitcoin-wizards

08:19 <adam3us> ext-blocks are bad - i am not sure, clearly there are issues however the alternatives evidently have issues also: viz the contentious hard-fork mess

08:19 GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards

08:19 <adam3us> maybe side-chain > soft-fork > ext-block > hard-fork > firmsoft-fork > firmhard-fork in increasing coerciveness

08:23 tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]

08:28 tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards

08:31 oleganza has joined #bitcoin-wizards

08:33 dnaleor has joined #bitcoin-wizards

08:36 oleganza has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]

08:38 ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]

08:40 Sheeda_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

08:44 c-cex-yuriy has joined #bitcoin-wizards

08:44 roidster has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]

08:49 GAit has quit [Quit: Leaving.]

08:50 <adam3us> (and in some ways seg-wit is a simplified ext-block)

08:50 Linus_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

08:51 GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards

08:56 polarbeard has joined #bitcoin-wizards

08:57 Linus_ has quit [Quit: Linus_]

08:58 Linus_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

08:59 T23WS_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

09:00 Sheeda_ has quit []

09:02 T23WS has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]

09:02 Linus_ has quit [Client Quit]

09:03 Linus_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

09:04 Remnaut has joined #bitcoin-wizards

09:05 andy-logbot has quit [Remote host closed the connection]

09:05 andy-logbot has joined #bitcoin-wizards

09:05 * andy-logbot is logging

09:05 <smooth> BlueMatt> generally, it seems very anti-bitcoin-ideals...puts too much control in the hands of miners <= how is it not the case that for something implementable as a soft fork the control is not already in the hands of miners?

09:05 <smooth> i.e. if not implemented that is a miner decision

09:06 alpalp has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

09:07 jannes has joined #bitcoin-wizards

09:11 Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards

09:17 wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards

09:20 phiche has quit [Quit: Leaving.]

09:20 paveljanik has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]

09:23 <adam3us> yes. that's what i'm thinking what we want is opt-in features. i'm not sure a soft-fork in terms of parameter changes is very opt in either - either drop your economic fullnode permanently to SPV, or opt-in. a rock/hard place "choice"

09:26 <adam3us> however the adopted features should (as far as possible) be opt-in so you can update a fullnode to get security and then elect to not use the feature. I think the grey area is you can make fungibility reducing or other issues via soft-fork or hard-fork. and another grey area is you can change parameters that affect decentralisation via soft-fork (or other forks)

09:31 Linus_ has quit [Quit: Linus_]

09:32 Linus_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

09:34 T23WS has joined #bitcoin-wizards

09:37 T23WS_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]

09:40 zorba_tg has joined #bitcoin-wizards

09:46 mrkent has quit []

09:52 tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]

09:57 tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards

10:01 GAit has quit [Quit: Leaving.]

10:04 roconnor has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]

10:09 GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards

10:10 ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards

10:20 AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards

10:22 GAit has quit [Quit: Leaving.]

10:23 GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards

10:24 damethos has quit [Quit: Bye]

10:25 damethos has joined #bitcoin-wizards

10:26 Remnaut has quit [Quit: Leaving]

10:39 bit2017 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]

10:47 c0rw|zZz has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]

10:47 moa has quit [Quit: Leaving.]

10:47 c0rw|zZz has joined #bitcoin-wizards

10:56 melvster has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

11:00 jcluck has joined #bitcoin-wizards

11:01 laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards

11:03 cluckj has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]

11:04 zmachine has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

11:05 zmachine has joined #bitcoin-wizards

11:10 melvster has joined #bitcoin-wizards

11:11 andytoshi has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

11:12 andy-logbot has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]

11:22 andytoshi has joined #bitcoin-wizards

11:22 tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

11:28 tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards

11:31 mountaingoat has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

11:35 rusty has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]

11:43 RoboTeddy has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]

11:44 mountaingoat has joined #bitcoin-wizards

11:45 AusteritySucks has joined #bitcoin-wizards

11:46 dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards

11:50 rusty has joined #bitcoin-wizards

11:56 zorba_tg has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]

11:56 rusty has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

11:57 zorba_tg has joined #bitcoin-wizards

11:59 damethos has quit [Quit: Bye]

11:59 damethos has joined #bitcoin-wizards

12:05 jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards

12:11 laurentmt has quit [Quit: laurentmt]

12:16 meZee- has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

12:21 ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]

12:25 Guyver2 has quit [Quit: :)]

12:26 MoALTz has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]

12:32 zorba_tg has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

12:33 Linus_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

12:40 zorba_tg has joined #bitcoin-wizards

12:43 cluckj has joined #bitcoin-wizards

12:45 jcluck has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

12:46 Linus_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

12:47 erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards

12:52 c-cex-yuriy has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]

12:52 phiche has joined #bitcoin-wizards

12:53 tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

12:55 MoALTz has joined #bitcoin-wizards

12:56 MoALTz_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

12:57 meZee- has joined #bitcoin-wizards

12:58 tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards

12:59 MoALTz has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

13:02 Burrito has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]

13:07 zorba_tg has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

13:14 laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards

13:15 GAit has quit [Quit: Leaving.]

13:17 p15 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]

13:21 GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards

13:22 sparetire_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

13:22 wallet42 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]

13:33 GAit has quit [Quit: Leaving.]

13:33 GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards

13:35 wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards

13:38 bityogi has joined #bitcoin-wizards

13:42 adlie has quit [Quit: Not all who wonder for lust]

14:00 sparetire_ has quit [Quit: sparetire_]

14:07 WyzBTC has joined #bitcoin-wizards

14:15 sparetire_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

14:22 tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]

14:23 supasonic has joined #bitcoin-wizards

14:26 phiche has quit [Quit: Leaving.]

14:29 tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards

14:38 Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards

14:41 zorba_tg has joined #bitcoin-wizards

14:46 zorba_tg has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

14:55 dEBRUYNE has quit [Quit: Leaving]

14:58 dnaleor_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

15:04 Dizzle has joined #bitcoin-wizards

15:17 GAit has quit [Quit: Leaving.]

15:17 GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards

15:23 roidster has joined #bitcoin-wizards

15:23 roidster is now known as Guest341

15:23 Guest341 is now known as roidster

15:30 zooko has joined #bitcoin-wizards

15:32 damethos has quit [Quit: Bye]

15:52 DougieBot5000 has joined #bitcoin-wizards

15:53 tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

15:54 GAit has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]

15:55 sipi has joined #bitcoin-wizards

15:55 GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards

15:57 grandmaster has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]

15:58 tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards

15:58 phiche has joined #bitcoin-wizards

16:02 Dizzle has quit [Quit: Leaving...]

16:07 phiche has quit [Quit: Leaving.]

16:07 ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards

16:09 <kanzure> would it be possible or meaningful to have a transaction format where the transaction to be valid has to include some hashed data from a "random" subset of ancient blockchain history?

16:11 wallet42 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]

16:12 MoALTz_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

16:13 voxelot has joined #bitcoin-wizards

16:13 voxelot has quit [Changing host]

16:13 voxelot has joined #bitcoin-wizards

16:34 zooko` has joined #bitcoin-wizards

16:36 veleiro has joined #bitcoin-wizards

16:36 <Eliel_> Well, at least it would decimate any ideas of ever running a fully validating node without full history.

16:36 zooko has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]

16:45 droark has quit [Quit: Later.]

16:45 droark has joined #bitcoin-wizards

16:46 zooko` is now known as zooko

16:48 <AdrianG> That would also pad the blocks some.

16:49 <AdrianG> extra 10% minimum?

16:50 <AdrianG> Eliel_: how do you run a fully validating node without full history today?

16:50 <AdrianG> either you have history, or you are not fully validating.

16:52 <smooth> AdrianG: you dont need history only validated UTXO

16:54 Erik_dc has joined #bitcoin-wizards

16:55 dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards

16:58 wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards

17:02 GAit has quit [Quit: Leaving.]

17:04 laurentmt has quit [Quit: laurentmt]

17:04 laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards

17:06 <Eliel_> AdrianG: you only need to have validated the history once to trust it. Doing it more often is superfluous unless you doubt the validation code you ran last time.

17:07 GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards

17:07 <Eliel_> so, you really only need the UTXO for a fully validating node.

17:08 <AdrianG> i dont think anyone deletes history after validating it today.

17:10 <AdrianG> Eliel_: if your db becomes corrupted, are you going to trust it? i would keep full history around just to make sure i can re-validate again.

17:10 <adlai> AdrianG: deleting history after validating is precisely what pruning does

17:12 markus-k has joined #bitcoin-wizards

17:12 huseby has quit [Quit: huseby]

17:13 <AdrianG> adlai: its actually default now?

17:14 <AdrianG> i would keep it around just so that i need less downloads in case it needs to be rescanned.

17:16 <AdrianG> its too small to worry about storage space for now. and the bigger it becomes, i would say the bigger is the incentive to keep a local copy around.

17:17 <Eliel_> AdrianG: All you really need is a digitally signed (made by your own key) hash of the UTXO set and you don't need to verify anything before that point ever again. You can just download it from any source and revalidation becomes necessary only if you can't find a honest source.

17:19 huseby has joined #bitcoin-wizards

17:20 <AdrianG> the only incentive is you store less, at the risk of possibly downloading a whole bunch more.

17:21 <AdrianG> import wallet - rescan, disk corruption - rescan.

17:21 <AdrianG> its not that uncommon.

17:22 Logicwax has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]

17:23 tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]

17:23 <adlai> AdrianG: pruning isn't default and really shouldn't be default for the same reasons you've mentioned... there is no incentive for anybody else to altruistically offer you past validation data, so get it while it's still free and keep a bunch of redundant copies :)

17:23 <AdrianG> if it gets into terabyte sizes, are you just going to redownload it?

17:24 mrkent has joined #bitcoin-wizards

17:25 <AdrianG> adlai: maybe its time to start a non-free subscription service.

17:25 Dizzle has joined #bitcoin-wizards

17:26 <adlai> too early, wait a century.

17:26 <AdrianG> https://tctechcrunch2011.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/amazon-snowball.jpg?w=738

17:26 <AdrianG> adlai: we'll get there soon enough.

17:27 wallet42 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]

17:27 <adlai> today, there seems to be rough consensus that it's in Bitcoin's best interest to be as welcoming as possible to newcomers. not in the sense of cheap/free transactions, but rather in the sense of freely available blockchain data, for independent validation.

17:28 <AdrianG> adlai: it would be in the best interest forever.

17:28 <AdrianG> otherwise p2p part will become moot.

17:28 <adlai> [citation needed]

17:29 * adlai can easily imagine a scenario where the only "new Bitcoiners" are children of existing Bitcoiners, who get validation data as part of their weekly allowance. "someday, you'll be old enough to have your own blockchain!"

17:29 tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards

17:30 <adlai> and generous altruists subsidize subscriptions for orphans (great, yet another meaning for this word)

17:31 laurentmt has quit [Quit: laurentmt]

17:38 AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

17:39 wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards

17:42 darmou has joined #bitcoin-wizards

17:53 veleiro has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]

17:53 veleiro has joined #bitcoin-wizards

17:58 AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards

18:01 GAit has quit [Quit: Leaving.]

18:10 gielbier has quit [Quit: Leaving]

18:16 laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards

18:16 erasmospunk has quit [Remote host closed the connection]

18:17 jposner has joined #bitcoin-wizards

18:25 <amiller_> kanzure, i like that idea, but i expect people would still just outsource that part to some service

18:27 conner_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

18:28 Tasoshi has joined #bitcoin-wizards

18:34 mrkent has quit []

18:37 <kanzure> amiller_: i think you could make some grinding necessary, maybe. but then they will outsource their transaction signing too :).

18:45 dEBRUYNE has quit [Quit: Leaving]

18:51 mrkent has joined #bitcoin-wizards

18:53 tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]

18:54 dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards

18:58 tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards

19:00 jposner has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

19:03 <Eliel_> kanzure: I think the only way to actually solve that particular problem is to reprogram the users.

19:07 <kanzure> toxoplasmosis? alright.

19:07 Linus_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

19:09 WyzBTC has quit [Quit: Leaving.]

19:20 Linus_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

19:21 <Eliel_> I read the wikipedia page about that but I'm still rather uncertain what you were trying to convey there.

19:22 <kanzure> reprogramming the users?

19:22 <kanzure> oh you probably meant software clients. oops.

19:27 darmou has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]

19:40 paveljanik has joined #bitcoin-wizards

19:40 paveljanik has quit [Changing host]

19:40 paveljanik has joined #bitcoin-wizards

19:48 Misterate has joined #bitcoin-wizards

19:49 davec has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]

19:50 davec has joined #bitcoin-wizards

19:50 veleiro has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]

19:50 belcher has joined #bitcoin-wizards

19:57 Misterate has quit [Remote host closed the connection]

19:59 blackwraith has joined #bitcoin-wizards

20:01 priidu has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

20:14 ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

20:17 shea256 has joined #bitcoin-wizards

20:23 tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]

20:29 tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards

20:31 shea256 has quit []

20:34 Dizzle has quit [Remote host closed the connection]

20:34 darmou has joined #bitcoin-wizards

20:35 Dizzle has joined #bitcoin-wizards

20:39 laurentmt has quit [Quit: laurentmt]

20:40 <amiller_> here be some research papers http://fc16.ifca.ai/bitcoin/program.html

20:41 Linus_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

20:46 jposner_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

20:49 zorba_tg has joined #bitcoin-wizards

20:52 ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards

20:53 damethos has joined #bitcoin-wizards

20:55 Linus_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

20:57 damethos has quit [Remote host closed the connection]

21:01 <zooko> The Zcash team is sending various representatives to FC'16! (Not me, too bad.)

21:08 c-cex-yuriy has joined #bitcoin-wizards

21:10 <Luke-Jr> Thoughts on doing a hardfork dry-run after the whole scalability thing has cooled off? We could change the address version bytes and payment protocol so the new version is incompatible with old, without touching the consensus layer; this would simulate a hardfork at an economic level (as much as possible without economic losses), and from that hopefully we can learn enough to do a hardfork in the future safely.

21:12 markus-k has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]

21:14 <zooko> Luke-Jr: interesting idea. It reminds me of jtimon's proposal at SB/HK "Let's have an uncontroversial hard fork!".

21:15 <kanzure> "Proofs of proof of work with sublinear complexity" http://fc16.ifca.ai/bitcoin/papers/KLS16.pdf

21:15 GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards

21:15 <Luke-Jr> zooko: well, hopefully the next hardfork proposal will be uncontroversial anyway - this can help prepare for it ;)

21:15 Burrito has joined #bitcoin-wizards

21:17 <kanzure> "Blindly signed contracts: Anonymous on-blockchain and off-blockchain bitcoin transactions" http://fc16.ifca.ai/bitcoin/papers/HBG16.pdf

21:18 <jtimon> zooko you mean bip99 still in draft waiting for coauthors to just pick up and implement ovious things from the various hardfork wishlists?

21:18 <kanzure> "Automated verification of electrum wallet" http://fc16.ifca.ai/bitcoin/papers/TVR16.pdf

21:18 * zooko looks at https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0099.mediawiki

21:19 <jtimon> s/ovious/obvious

21:19 <kanzure> "Why buy when you can rent? Bribery attacks on Bitcoin-style consensus" http://fc16.ifca.ai/bitcoin/papers/Bon16b.pdf

21:19 <zooko> whoa I need to actually pay attention to this, apparently.

21:19 <zooko> Are you telling me that the timewarp attack actually was used against altcoins ?

21:20 JackH has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]

21:20 <zooko> And, uh, I'm not 100% clear on the boundary between -wizards material and "take it to your altcoin sandbox" material in this area, by the way.

21:20 <kanzure> well the boundary is best known when it consists of many angry people yelling at you on irc, so look out for that

21:20 <zooko> N.B. I'm the CEO of the Zcash Co and I spend all of my energy on that nowadays.

21:21 <zooko> kanzure: *lol* Thanks!

21:21 <jtimon> zooko of course it was used against altcoins, that's why almost most altcoins fixed it (probably the fact that most altcoins just forked litecoin was a factor too)

21:21 <zooko> jtimon: huh, I thought it wasn't exploitable in practice. So I guess I really do need to pay attention! Thanks for mentioning it.

21:22 <jtimon> well, bitcoin has much higher hashpower than other altcoins

21:22 <zooko> So, yeah, folks, if a lot of people start yelling at me and I bow out, you'll find me over on irc.oftc.net #zcash.

21:23 <jtimon> it's not that of a concern for bitcoin specifically, but nobody can reasonably contest that it would only good for bitcoin to fix this

21:23 <zooko> FWIW IMHO Zcash is good fodder for -wizards because (a) Bitcoin could grow Zcash-like features in various ways including potentially side-chains and

21:24 <zooko> (b) Bitcoin can learn from Zcash's experience.

21:24 <zooko> But if a lot of others disagree, I won't insist on talking about my beloved baby.

21:26 <zooko> ticketed for Zcash to consider adopting timewarp-defense: https://github.com/Electric-Coin-Company/zcash/issues/696

21:26 <instagibbs> the hell zooko you're not even in that room :P

21:26 <kanzure> easire to ask for forgiveness than permission. because i am not going to give you blanket permission to spam zcash things forever.

21:26 dEBRUYNE has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]

21:26 <zooko> instagibbs: not on freenode.

21:26 <instagibbs> ahh

21:26 <zooko> instagibbs: tell everyone in that channel to go to oftc before you leave. ;-)

21:26 * instagibbs failure to read first line on my screen

21:27 <zooko> kanzure: yeah, I know.

21:27 <kanzure> your ticket seems to be copy-paste of the current scrollback

21:28 <jtimon> zooko how could zcash not be on-topic here? I've heard even all freicoin technical design decisions were respectfuly listened to here :p

21:28 <zooko> jtimon, kanzure: okay, fine! I will happily talk about Zcash day and night until enough people tell me persuasively enough to shut up. ;-)

21:29 <kanzure> do whatever you want, just no more pretext

21:30 <kanzure> hmm i mean pre-text not the actual word "pretext"

21:30 <jtimon> zooko, don't be so impatient, now you just have to wait for any comment about a design decision that zcash has done differently and talk about it when it's pertinent :p

21:30 <kanzure> yep.

21:31 dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards

21:32 <fluffypony> we've discussed Monero features often enough here

21:32 <jtimon> oh, wait, zooko, instagibbs are there more IRCs other than https://webchat.freenode.net/ ?

21:32 frankenmint has joined #bitcoin-wizards

21:32 * jtimon hides

21:42 Emcy_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

21:44 Emcy has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

21:48 <zooko> jtimon: yeah, http://www.oftc.net/WebChat/

21:52 Misterate has joined #bitcoin-wizards

21:53 Tasoshi_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

21:53 tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

21:54 Tasoshi has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]

21:56 Tasoshi has joined #bitcoin-wizards

21:56 <aknix> https://twitter.com/DecentOS/status/693189422259507204 - Death to the Bitcoin Wizard meme. Great article by @badslinky

21:56 <aknix> https://medium.com/elliotolds/the-bitcoin-block-size-debate-is-not-about-technical-expertise-d3434beb04b2#.mlmrp493p …

21:57 <aknix> i dont even.....

21:57 Tasoshi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

21:59 tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards

21:59 darmou has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]

21:59 Misterate has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]

22:02 bramc has joined #bitcoin-wizards

22:03 <bramc> Hey neat, webchat.freenode.net works

22:04 <bramc> zooko: Fixing timewarp is trivial. Don't copy over that bug. While you're at it you might want to make it that the first cycle after the rewards are halved has the work difficulty halved.

22:04 <bramc> zooko: Other obvious things: Start with p2sh and segwit to begin with

22:05 darmou has joined #bitcoin-wizards

22:06 <Eliel_> (and do the clean implementation of segwit, rather than the soft-fork version)

22:08 <zooko> We have a ticket for segwit.

22:09 <zooko> We're already based on top of Bitcoin core 0.10.0 so we already have p2sh.

22:09 <bramc> Fixing timewarp is a single fencepost bug fix but it's a hard fork

22:12 <jtimon> zooko it's pretty simple, yeah, trivial to back/forward port most of that trivial commit is actually activation: https://github.com/jtimon/bitcoin/commit/91cceb9ae0061e273865cacc107f49aa6f6879a2

22:12 <zooko> Thanks.

22:13 <jtimon> this one is better for you: https://github.com/freicoin/freicoin/commit/beb2fa54745180d755949470466cbffd1cd6ff14

22:13 <zooko> Thanks for linking to the irc log, kanzure.

22:14 JackH has joined #bitcoin-wizards

22:14 ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]

22:15 <Eliel_> aknix: I can't figure out how your twitter comment about that article relates to it. It seems to be talking about something else entirely.

22:17 <aknix> @Eliel_ 1 techinical person and one maybe not so technical person are arguing its not about techinicals. Well it is. The whole article is misleading.

22:18 <aknix> The argument has already gone from governance to "other things"

22:19 <aknix> We have a "leader"? of Classic coming in and conceding that cores development process is better.

22:19 <aknix> Am I missing something?

22:19 zooko has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]

22:19 <ibrightly> yes. you're missing the fact that not everything about Bitcoin can be reduced down to technicalities.

22:20 <aknix> Oh look the troll is back

22:20 <ibrightly> you're seriously going to call me a troll.

22:20 <aknix> What a suprise, one who couldnt answer techinicals. In good faith im leaving to keep this room clean

22:20 <aknix> meet me in Slack if you have any comments... You know where I am....

22:23 <ibrightly> you asked a question, i answered. sorry that you didn't care for the answer. Not sure how that's trolling. Bowing out now.

22:23 NewLiberty has joined #bitcoin-wizards

22:24 <aknix> ibrightly we both know that is not the case.

22:25 GGuyZ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

22:25 <ebfull> bramc: "While you're at it you might want to make it that the first cycle after the rewards are halved has the work difficulty halved."

22:25 <ebfull> is there a name for this or any other discussion you can point me to?

22:26 <bramc> ebfull No name for it and discussions have mostly happened offline. We can of course discuss in here.

22:27 conner_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]

22:27 <ebfull> i understand it intuitively, i've just never heard of it. fun stuff

22:28 conner_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

22:29 <bramc> Another thing to throw in there: Switching the PoW function from sha2 to sha3. luke-jr proposed that for bitcoin classic and I don't know if he was trolling, but it's a fairly good idea for a one-time hit to miner power.

22:30 conner_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]

22:30 conner_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

22:31 <Eliel_> aknix: I don't see the article arguing it's not about technical choices. It's arguing that it's about more than just technical choices. Important policy questions that need to be considered by a wider group of people than just engineers.

22:33 conner_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]

22:33 Yoghur114 has joined #bitcoin-wizards

22:35 <fluffypony> Eliel_: agreed, I don't think that article is entirely off-base either - "good at C++" != "understands game theory", for instance

22:36 <jtimon> I think luke's point was that an ASIC-reset hardfork is kind of the cannonical controversial hardfork and guaranties the old miners can't touch you

22:37 <jtimon> or something of the sort, I'm just really speculating and didn't read his actual proposal

22:38 <jtimon> in any case, of course, it's not miners nor developers who decide the rules users validate

22:42 GAit has quit [Quit: Leaving.]

22:42 <bramc> What article are we talking about here?

22:42 Tasoshi_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

22:44 <fluffypony> bramc: https://medium.com/elliotolds/the-bitcoin-block-size-debate-is-not-about-technical-expertise-d3434beb04b2#.mlmrp493p

22:45 <aknix> Eliel_,Classic had viable chance to demonstrate a better platform to allow dicussions to be had. (who wouldnt want that) It turns out Classic couldnt deliver that platform nor improve that decision making process. Either governance or techincals, in Classic slack even "big names" are splitting hairs over Techincals or governance. Now the governance battle is over Jtoomim came in conceded that classic had no better solution than core. There are no

22:45 <aknix> mumbers or remote proof of majority/minority

22:46 darmou has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]

22:46 Tasoshi has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]

22:46 <aknix> Pick an argument!

22:46 <aknix> not like it matters... All credibility is already lost...

22:47 <bramc> He has some good points about there being non-technical issues, but I strongly disagree with the claim that the core devs aren't on the whole better at that than non-dev bitcoiners. Some of the big essays supporting bitcoin classic have demonstrated a horrible misunderstanding of basic microeconomics.

22:47 <aknix> Again I will leave this channel for CONSTRUCTIVE reasons. Please dont waste my time!

22:52 zooko has joined #bitcoin-wizards

22:54 dnaleor has quit [Quit: Leaving]

22:54 dnaleor_ has quit [Quit: Leaving]

22:54 dnaleor has joined #bitcoin-wizards

22:56 tachys has joined #bitcoin-wizards

22:58 GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards

23:00 <Luke-Jr> jtimon: ASIC-reset is not controversial at all, in a situation where miners have betrayed Bitcoin

23:03 <jtimon> Luke-Jr: old-algorithm miners would never rationally agree with a an ASIC-reset hardfork? miners are users too, maybe even people as well :p

23:03 <tromp_> if miners want to betray bitcoin, they should have their fpga farms ready to deal with any pow change defenses:)

23:04 <aknix> I think we will find you cant betray bitcoin.....

23:04 <maaku> tromp_ are you presenting cooko cycles at FC 16?

23:04 <tromp_> no, cuckoo cycle was in FC 2015 and has not changed much since

23:05 <tromp_> just figured out how to make it more efficient on GPUs

23:05 <maaku> Just saw you pushed some updates recently and thought you were getting ready for something.

23:05 <tromp_> i'm tweaking it all the time

23:06 <maaku> Would you consider the current code production ready?

23:06 <tromp_> not quite

23:07 zorba_tg has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]

23:07 <tromp_> well, the miners can probably be tweaked some more

23:08 <tromp_> but the consensus code has been stable for a long time

23:08 <tromp_> the verification part that is

23:08 <tromp_> that should be production ready

23:09 <tromp_> that is also a rather small amount of code

23:09 <maaku> OK that's the important part

23:09 <Luke-Jr> jtimon: miners are a trivially ignorable minority of users

23:10 <tromp_> just the last 28 lines of https://github.com/Genoil/cuckoo/blob/master/src/cuckoo.h

23:10 <Eliel_> bramc: That there are people horribly wrong on the internet is a fact of life. It doesn't really make a difference if they happen to support Bitcoin Classic or Bitcoin Core, or whatever else. The main issue is that there are a lot of people who have ended up distrusting the Core team. That's not good news for a project that relies on consensus to work.

23:10 <maaku> I'd really like to see cooko cycle used as a hash cash for p2p connection slot priority

23:10 <maaku> Nn

23:11 <maaku> That would give some anti Sybil resistance to the network which we're sorely lacking.

23:12 <tromp_> how many bytes are you willing to devote to the pow, maaku?

23:12 <tromp_> the default is 42*4 = 168 bytes

23:13 <maaku> That's fine

23:13 <tromp_> but going with a lower cycle length should be fine for p2p purposes

23:13 <maaku> As long as version message + PoW fits in a TCP packet

23:14 <tromp_> and how many seconds can a slow client afford to spend on it?

23:15 <tromp_> or minutes?

23:15 <maaku> Haven't thought too deeply about that yet

23:16 <tromp_> that will guide your choice of graph size

23:16 <tromp_> and memory usage

23:20 bramc has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]

23:20 <tromp_> also, to reduce the variance, you may want to accept a range of cycle lengths

23:21 <tromp_> but the current code has PROOFSIZE fixed

23:22 tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]

23:22 GGuyZ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]

23:23 <tromp_> guess i shld update that to have MINPROOFSIZE and MAXPROOFSIZE

23:23 GGuyZ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

23:23 <tromp_> afk a bit

23:28 tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards

23:29 Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards

23:32 Newyorkadam has joined #bitcoin-wizards

23:34 conner_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

23:34 nwilcox has quit [Quit: leaving]

23:39 Erik_dc has quit [Remote host closed the connection]

23:39 conner_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]

23:40 Newyorkadam has quit [Quit: Newyorkadam]

23:44 DougieBot5000 has quit [Quit: Leaving]

23:46 GAit has quit [Quit: Leaving.]

23:47 NewLiberty has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]

23:51 NewLiberty has joined #bitcoin-wizards

23:55 dEBRUYNE has quit [Quit: Leaving]

23:56 PaulCape_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

23:59 jannes_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards

23:59 jannes has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

23:59 PaulCapestany has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

23:59 blackwraith has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

23:59 droark has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]