sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<MRL-Relay>
[shen] I hope this guy is not in academia...
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<nonaTure>
@ fluffypony I was not so much interested in stealth addresses but the derivation function itself. because if it works, is there still a need for extended public keys? does somebody here really understand the math?
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<MRL-Relay>
[shen] nonaTure, I haven't looked at that guys, but Moneros works as follows (there has been a little bit of discussion on ways of improving this on reddit past couple of days): P = H(rA)G + B is the one time key, r is random, (A, B) are spend and view public keys of receiver
<MRL-Relay>
[shen] then receiver computes H(Ra) + b as the secret key to P, as b is unknown, and you can't solve the DLP for P-H(rA)G = bG without knowning b, this means the key for P is also safe
<nonaTure>
would be helpful if somebody could look at the bitalias address derivation function. seems to be very practical (easy) in comparison to the complex BIP32 and BIP47 way
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<MRL-Relay>
[shen] nonaTure, looks like the link is doing: H(string)G + B, so it's just the CryptoNote one, but rather than specify the string is rAG = RaG it's just some string (i.e. they are missing the ability to ecdh share it) -
<nonaTure>
'ecdh share it'?
<MRL-Relay>
[shen] you can pass R via diffie helman to the receiver, if you don't want to reveal it
<MRL-Relay>
[shen] R = rG
<nonaTure>
hm
<nonaTure>
so the cryptonote way would be more efficient, but besides it is the same?
<MRL-Relay>
[shen] yeah, like if you pass a random string by ecdh, since you are hashing it, there is a danger that in the process of passing it some reduction mod curve order or something might happen, which would screw it up
<nonaTure>
is there a need why BIP47 uses an _extended_ key or is the cryptonote way actually a better way to derive many addresses from one single key?
<nonaTure>
sorry, not BIP47, but BIP32
<MRL-Relay>
[shen] haven't read that maybe someone else can comment
<nonaTure>
it is one of the most important BIPs and a lot of wallets use this method to derive addresses
<nonaTure>
but very complex, so I was looking for a more simple way
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<MRL-Relay>
[shen] nonaTure: ah - "from one single key?" Monero has "two" keys A and B which are packed into a single thingy which is passed around
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<nonaTure>
bip32 and bitalias use just one key
<MRL-Relay>
[shen] how many bytes though?
<MRL-Relay>
[shen] ahh- the bitalias link is using the purposeString for the additional bytes, essentially it's a poor replacement for a second key
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<fluffypony>
so they use a hash of the word "view" ?
<fluffypony>
and they add that to the masterPrivateKey, and extract a privateKey from that
<MRL-Relay>
[shen] ah I didn't even see that - for some reason I was thinking they needed privacy, since they were doing it cryptonote style
<fluffypony>
they do
<fluffypony>
BitCore's PrivateKey() function derives a private key from the bigNum that is passed, as if it were a random seed (from my reading of it)
<fluffypony>
so when BitAlias says "Because having only the private view key one can not spend the coins, the scan process for payments can be delegated to another entity which pings the recipient every time he receives a new payment to a stealth address."
<fluffypony>
but the derivation is literally the same for spend and view keys, except that the view key has a fixed 4-byte hash added to it
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<MRL-Relay>
[shen] hmm, I guess I'm slightly confues since I don't know the bitcore api - but I would assume that .getG().mul(hash(purposestring).add(Pubkey) is doing A = H(string)G + P, if string is always the same, then anyone can compute A from P
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* adlai
wonders whether ACCSs and decentralized orderbooks are enough of a short-term "idea who's time has come" to warrant their own channel
<adlai>
they definitely do not involve any moon math or kool krypto, just a bunch of plumbing
<adlai>
and the toilets are leaking! had XT triggered a hard fork last week, the "decentralized exchange" would've existed only as a messy arbitrage between centralized exchanges and individual counterparties
<adlai>
nsh: not sure if you saw, but i linked yesterday a paper about restructuring markets to batch executions (and treat orders accepted during each batch as auction bids (even if they're an ask...))
<adlai>
kang_: dunno, there's this fashion lately around writing text instead of code
<kang_>
I am exploring these too..mercuryex doesn't seem to be an active project though
<adlai>
so #bitcoin-plumbers exists :P
<adlai>
although i suggest discussing bip4x etc in here, until we get explicitly asked to go elsewhere
<adlai>
it's not like we need less awareness of the uselessness of centralized crypto exchanges
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<adlai>
kang_: are you working on something specific or just educating yourself about the prior art?
<kang_>
if counterparty does not go through the trade, our funds are locked and cannot used in another trade for the duration of timeout
<adlai>
correct, this is a limitation of the 2of2 model. 2of3 introduces a "DoS Mitigation Oracle" who could collude with one side to screw the other, so pick your poison
<kang_>
adlai: Looking to get into development
<nsh>
adlai, didn't see that. sounds interesting
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<ibrightly>
I was looking at this article the other day and it mentions "the Lightning Network can support non-Bitcoin denominated transactions" - can anyone point me in the right direction for how this would work?
<kanzure>
ibrightly: as a trivial example, atomic transfer protocols already exist
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<maaku>
Colored coins
<ibrightly>
Colored coins trx are LN compatible?
<ibrightly>
and thanks Kanzure - reading
<maaku>
Of course.
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<JackH>
if only we had some FAQ's for better explaining everything
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<JackH>
you guys sit with alot of info we dig out gradually (the rest of us non core devs)
<ibrightly>
I had thought that most colored coin implementations rely upon op_return message data and that this would not be enforced end-to-end on a LN payment channel.
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<helo>
ibrightly: there is no message data needed with colored coin
<helo>
all of the "coloring" is done off-chain
<kanzure>
we could either spend our time developing our spend our time writing FAQs, seems more efficient to just spend time developing
<maaku>
Can be done off chain. I don't know of any implementation that does do this though.
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<maaku>
Likewise I'm sure there are colored coin implementations that are not compatible, because they resuse the sequence field for example.
<maaku>
But the basic idea works, and the most efficient design I know of works with LN
<ibrightly>
Gotcha. OK thanks - something new to think about.
<zmanian_>
think one need some sort of transaction history linearization to transfer color coins across chains if your clients are only going to watch one chain or SPV type security but that's not really complicated
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<maaku>
Would be nice to have someone who is not a developer take on creating a FAQ for all this.
<tachys>
Is it possible to create a 2 of 2 multisig address without knowing one of the two xpubs beforehand? We want to create an address that that's designed to only be spendable once a Git repo owner and a solver of an GitHub issue on that repo sign the spending tx, but at the same time we need the address to exist before we know the xpub of that resolver so others can send funds to the xpub to incentivize completing the issue.
<zmanian_>
tachys: Not a conventional multisig. You need to know both pubkeys for the preimage of the redeem script
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<JackH>
I would not mind doing it, but it would require some time with one or more of you maaku
<JackH>
to ensure its all crystal clear and correct
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<kanzure>
JackH: you can get our review time, sure
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<maaku>
Yes, many of us would be available to review
<maaku>
zmanian_ you could possibly construct something where you commit in advance only to the hash of the pubkey
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<coinoperated>
on that note, can we try to choose names for important, user-facing pieces of the system which are based on what the effect of the thing is, rather than based on the internal way it works? RBF is one such example.
<coinoperated>
It should be called something like "upgradable fees"
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<bsm117532>
The free p2p relay of transactions is a cause of mining centralization, because it enables one to outsource mining. We'd be better off if every transaction had to be mined by the submitter (even if only a little bit). Discuss.
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<gwillen>
coinoperated: any such name is deeply politically contentious though
<gwillen>
coinoperated: for example, people who are in favor of RBF would agree with "upgradeable fees", whereas people who are opposed would insist on something like "allow zero-fee double-spends" or something
<gwillen>
err, zero_confirm_ double-spends
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<coinoperated>
Gwillen: But the prerogative to name something rests with its supporters, naturally. (It can be co-opted by its opponents, of course, if supporters don't take measures to prevent this)
* gwillen
nods
<coinoperated>
and supporters don't usually name things by their potential flaws
<coinoperated>
A door is just as validly a "passageway" as it is "a weak point in a wall"
<coinoperated>
but we don't usually think of it in the latter sense
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<maaku>
coinoperated: replace-by-fee *IS* what it does though
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<maaku>
it's not upgradeable fees, unless you are specifically talking about FSS-RBF
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<coinoperated>
maaku: what other use is there for it than to bump the fee on a Tx higher to get it confirmed faster?
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<maaku>
coinoperated: transaction cut though, plus various off-chain resolution schemes
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<instagibbs>
you could also simply combine 2 txns into one
<instagibbs>
although im not sure if you get much of a discount with current code for that
<coinoperated>
Are those uses more meaningful to end users than upgrading fees? I mean in terms of cutting down the frequency of asked questions, naming something by its most common usage makes more sens than describing what it does atomically.
<coinoperated>
sense
<coinoperated>
like calling a doorknob a reciprocating-bolt-shuttle
<maaku>
instagibbs: you save the change addresses
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<instagibbs>
maaku, I more meant I think the current code will make you pay for the transaction you evicted? Unsure.
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<nsh>
instagibbs, how?
<nsh>
a replaced transaction can't be charged. i don't think that would be possible without some kinda hacks
<maaku>
instagibbs: you only pay the marginal cost + epsilon
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<adlai>
maaku: my 2ksat - if people who are not developers write FAQs, then developers end up wasting more time complaining and correcting, and ultimately the only benefit is that somebody might donate a large chunk of humor-time to compile a FQA
* adlai
would much rather have developers, burned out from coding so long that their dreams render in template boilerplate, swallow their pride and write some text for a change
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<andytoshi>
adlai: IME writing text costs far more burnout points than coding, because "is this good?" is so much harder to measure
<andytoshi>
+1 to "thanks waxwing for all his writing", from me for the CT stuff
<adlai>
"write drunk, edit sober"
<andytoshi>
:) that does help
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<adlai>
drunk developers write unreadably obstruse but highly correct drafts; non-devs (or sober devs with time to burn) can edit them afterwards
<waxwing>
adlai: you're too kind, those docs are at best half baked... i think bitcoin developer reference/guide whatever is a better example.
<waxwing>
of course they will be less half baked when you add to them :)
* adlai
is not kind enough, mostly just shilling joinmarket
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<adlai>
but shilling decentralized positive-sum markets that establish a risk-free rate for trust-minimized finance is the best kind of shilling
<adlai>
fun fact: most israelis can't pronounce "shilling point" correctly :D
<waxwing>
is that a pun on schelling point?
<adlai>
it's how they pronounce it
<AdrianG>
so what is this zcash
<AdrianG>
~/.zcash/bitcoin.conf ..build on top of bitcoin?
<adlai>
at what level are you asking?
<adlai>
at the highest level, zerocash can be considered a black gob of bitcoins which provably does not inflate the currency; some enter, some exit, and you have no idea why; only that no more exited than went in
<moa>
or a white glob
* adlai
originally wrote "black hole", but that's not correct; there is no "event horizon"
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<moa>
black box maybe
<coinoperated>
sounds like a capacitor
<coinoperated>
arbitrary frequencies goes in, linear comes out
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<adlai>
these are not helpful analogies... zkp moonmath is bad enough without them :-\
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<adlai>
AdrianG: ultimately the point is to prove that the currency is not being inflated, and to prove that your ownership of an asset will be respected by the next recipient, without leaking how much who had when
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<AdrianG>
how do they plan to build a company on top of this
* adlai
leaves the answer to zookolaptop and his investors
<adlai>
fwiw, a perfectly sound business model is "this technology increases the value of bitcoin by an order of magnitude, so open a giant long and pay us a ramen-rentable salary", but some investors may disagree on this
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<adlai>
funny how the people who buy bitcoin hate paying developers to improve it, and the people who vice versa et cetera
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<MRL-Relay>
[othe] because the only ones buying bitcoin and co are speculators at the momemnt, and it´s all about personal profit.
<adlai>
ah right, but the venture capital industry is about disruption and repurposing tuna trawlers to clear up the plastic patch
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<instagibbs>
maaku, ah, so then I mis-rememebered
<instagibbs>
must be > feerate as well as absolute, plus bandwidth delta
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* adlai
wonders whether any burned-out wizards, sick of writing code xor text, may enjoy reading https://archive.is/4VFFu
<maaku>
instagibbs: i could be wrong. we should probably check the code
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<PeterR>
TITLE: "How should the supply of block space be controlled?"
<PeterR>
Ledger is considered soliciting two editorials (not peer reviewed) on this question: one from prominent small-block proponents, and one from prominent big-block proponents.
<PeterR>
Good idea?
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<TD-Linux>
PeterR, that's an odd title, isn't "What should the consensus rule for maximum block size be?" actually what you want?
<nsh>
things trying to be scientific journals should be wary of indulging in 'balanced' editorial nonscience
<nsh>
but maybe they'd be good and edifying and tend towards better appreciation, mutual understanding and eventual rational consensus
<nsh>
i wouldn't wanna take that risk though
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<PeterR>
TD-Linux: I dunno. Rules enforced by miners and nodes is one way to affect the supply of block space.