sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<nsh>
so chaum lost the plot, or what?
<merlincorey>
haha yeah
<merlincorey>
I saw that
<bsm117532>
Saw what?
<nsh>
probably the media hype is obscuring a potentially viable concept
<nsh>
but some notion of a mixnet that would obviate the need for tor/i2p, with no noticeable delay/latency and requiring just 9 servers in heterogenous legal regimes
<nsh>
i haven't read the paper. being presented at Real World Crypto in Stanford today
<nsh>
but it's not getting a great reception already
<gwillen>
well, I gotta say, I don't like the key escrow part of it
<gwillen>
"Chaum is also building into PrivaTegrity another feature that’s sure to be far more controversial: a carefully controlled backdoor that allows anyone doing something “generally recognized as evil” to have their anonymity and privacy stripped altogether."
* gwillen
only just started reading in response to nsh's message just now
* nsh
nods
<gwillen>
I wonder if he decided to call that a feature because it's a sort of inherent property of the system he built, so may as well try to rebrand it
<nsh>
possibly. i'm trying to reserve judgement on the hopes that the presentation is recorded and will be made public
* gwillen
nods
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<gwillen>
I wouldn't say he's lost the plot but I think he's not taking social factors into account adequately
<gwillen>
which is a common problem...
<gwillen>
mixnets are already pretty specialized, normal internet users expect low latency
<gwillen>
and the kind of people who would use a mixnet will not stand for a backdoored one
<phantomcircuit>
lol
<phantomcircuit>
tv show, murder during a treasure hunt in manhatten, prize at the end is a flash drive with bitcoins on it
<phantomcircuit>
amusingly this actually makes total sense
<phantomcircuit>
oops wrong channel
<gwillen>
hahahaha, hi phantomcircuit :-)
* phantomcircuit
waves to gwillen
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<nsh>
gwillen, agreed. sounds like a political solution to a technical problem from an expert in the technical and not the political/social
<nsh>
you can achieve a lot if you're allowed to assume some subset of parties will never collude
<nsh>
but extending that to the anonymity of the internet is a pretty breathtaking stretch
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<jcorgan>
inb4 all the pols say, "See we told you it was possible, David Chaum, one of you, says so!"
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<nsh>
or maybe he's playing a corker of a double-bluff, and is setting this project up to fail like the clipper chip
<dcousens>
nsh: not as uncommon as you'd think
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<moa>
OP_BLINDSIGN
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<lknkln>
hello
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<wiretapp>
hello
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<CiPi>
This channel is logged.
<CiPi>
Goat damn it...NSA
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<null_radix>
does anyone know of a hierarchical deterministic key scheme that allow for a way to verify that public keys were generated from a root key. Given that the verifier only know the root public key?
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<MRL-Relay>
[shen] null_radix - maybe something like (x_n, P_n) then G_{n+1} = hash(P_n), (x_{n+1}, P_{n+1}) = (x_n , x_n G_{n+1}), and at each step provide a signature w'r't new basepoint (haven't thought this through)
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<bsm117532>
The minimum difficulty target for a Braid is set by the existence of graph cuts (beads/blocks with no siblings). You need a span between two graph cuts to allocate coins. So the number of graph cuts should be the same as the high-difficulty (bitcoin) target difficulty. This is controlled by a quantity (network size)/(minimum difficulty) where the network size is measured in seconds.
<bsm117532>
network size = mean time to get a bead to all nodes.
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<Taek>
I don't know if this will go anywhere, but I like the idea of transaction-enforced preconsensus
<Taek>
basically, you have some method for arriving at preconsensus related to weak blocks, which allows the network to basically agree in advance what stuff should look like
<Taek>
then you have transactions commit to that, meaning a miner that deviates will have to lose the fees on all potential transactions
<Taek>
so the miners have a tangible financial incentive to stick to the preconsensus
<Taek>
but also a DoS vector where they can invalidate a whole set of transactions just by not following preconsensus
<Taek>
though that's not to bad, it's easy enough for the full nodes to remake and resubmit the transactions
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<Taek>
<PeterR> Jannes: using estimates for average network latency and propagation impedance from G. Andrew Stone's recent paper, orphan rate would be ~20% with 8 MB blocks.
<Taek>
20% is completely unviable for small miners
<Taek>
a miner with 20% of the hashpower is going to have an orphan rate of 16%, compared to an orphan rate of 20% for the small miners
<bsm117532>
Consensus is consensus. It seems wrong to me to have almost-consensus, pre-consensus, and other concepts. It seems pretty similar to the discussion on Ethereum's Casper: they require consensus on bonded validators in order to have consensus on blocks. This should all be reducible to a single sense of "consensus" without dividing it into pieces.
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<Taek>
preconsensus allows you to have softer assumptions, meaning you can have more powerful protocols
<Taek>
for example, you can have conflicting transactions in preconsensus
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<bsm117532>
Taek: Then you don't have consensus at all, so I'm confused what the point is.
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<bsm117532>
Taek: It seems to me that weak blocks are not about consensus, but about keeping mempools synchronized and optimizing block propagation.
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<Taek>
keeping mempools synchronized is preconsensus
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<stevenroose>
hi, what is the state of Maxwell's POLYSIG multisig scheme? Has anyone been working on an implementation?"
<bsm117532>
Aren't you worried that a double-spender could use that mechanism to select which of his two double-spends gets committed?
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<Taek>
bsm117532: that's why you don't rely on preconsensus for confirmation of a transaction's validity. It's okay if a double-spender can manipulate the preconsensus because nobody should be expecting things to be resolved
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<Taek>
so, you have weak blocks that commit to the most recent large block. You use these weak blocks to build a 'strong' mempool that decides what transactions (according to an unenforced preconsensus) are eligable for the next block, and then you have a canonical way to pick between the eligable transactions, and a canonical ordering, which means you can predict the merkle root knowing only the set of weak blocks
<bsm117532>
I'm leaning stronger and stronger to the opinion that we should remove free p2p relay of transactions. All this complication comes from managing that. If everything were mined, we have a just a single data structure to manage, rather than all these layers.
<Taek>
furthermore, you only select weak blocks that commit to strong blocks with 2 confirmations, meaning someone adding new weak blocks to that set is sacrificing mining dollars
<Taek>
assuming that everyone has seen all the weak blocks, everyone knows the ordained merkle root of the next block
<Taek>
and any manipulations would be expensive
<Taek>
that allows new transactions to commit to the preconsensus, stating that they and their fees aren't valid unless there is a block following the preconsensus
<Taek>
which incentivizes people to follow the preconsensus
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<Taek>
=/ it's too convoluted
<Taek>
also, if a miner breaks preconsensus, the transaction submitters are likely to just rebuild and resubmit, meaning the miners aren't actually losing out on those fees
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<bsm117532>
It's convoluted. :-/
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<MRL-Relay>
[shen] stevenroose: Do you have a link to the polysig thing? I hadn't heard of it, but I included a multisig description based on the MG sigs in recent drafts of the ring ct stuff and am wondering if it's similar based on what I could find from here: https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/search/?q=polysig
<stevenroose>
POLYSIG is just the term he coined in that talk, it might be called differently by now
<stevenroose>
it just seemed like the better alternative and its weird that almost a year has passed without hearing from it again
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<MRL-Relay>
[shen] stevenroose, ah found it, that's interesting, but definitely different than the one I wrote up, which, if you are interested is in sec 4.4 here: https://www.overleaf.com/read/qzgytbyyxvyf
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<kanzure>
win 97
<kanzure>
... oops.
<merlincorey>
kanzure: windows 95 or windows 98 buddy
<merlincorey>
kanzure: no win 97 :P
* merlincorey
sees himself out now, following bad joke
<arubi>
irc channels are the best wordlists :)
<stevenroose>
MRL-Relay: t of m of n?
<MRL-Relay>
[shen] yeah so t of m is the multisig part, and then the multisiggers are hidden in m of n
<stevenroose>
what's n if t is the threshold and m the participants?
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<stevenroose>
ah
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<jannes>
Taek: thx, I guess I missed PeterR. Googling for that paper leads me to BU and gives me headaches. I'll take your word for it. 20% sounds absolutely killing for decentralization.