#bitcoin-wizards on 2016-01-17 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

2015-10-30 00:53 sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja

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01:00 <bsm117532> bramc: It's definitely a whiny ragequit.

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01:43 <smooth> it is, but calling it that is behaving no better

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01:44 <brg444> smooth Sorry Core devs can't pay for ny times feature

01:45 <bsm117532> To the points at the end of bramc's post: there is NO RIGHT ANSWER to "what is the right block size". Bitcoin uses an inappropriate data structure (a linked list). The solution is some deeper re-engineering to remove the problem entirely. We need to buy time to do that engineering. So a near-term bump is a reasonable option. Segwit is good for a whole host of other reasons that have nothing to do with block size

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01:46 <smooth> there clearly is a right answer for any given state of technology and marketplace. Identifying it may be difficult.

01:47 <smooth> and other solutions may be better still

01:48 <brg444> bsm117532: No one is disputing this AFAIK but as you mention needing appropriate time it's important for everyone to acknowledge this is a manufactured "crisis" that aims to precipitate the due process

01:49 <bsm117532> brg444: I think the "next solution" has not emerged yet, so people are being stupid. I'm working as fast as I can, and I'm not the only one.

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01:49 <bsm117532> People who don't do software engineering can't even imagine another solution...

01:50 <brg444> bsm117532: change a constant! "Off with their head!"

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01:54 <bramc> The blocksize bump in segwit is clearly the pragmatic thing to right now given current technical and political realities

02:02 <bsm117532> The blocksize bump is necessary no matter what, because of current transaction volume realities. Segwit is very useful far beyond an effective block size increase, but is (probably) too far out to solve the near-term problem of hitting full blocks on the regular.

02:03 <brg444> is it?

02:04 <gmaxwell> bsm117532: you're working from an offensively wrong premise.

02:04 <brg444> I'd rather have full blocks then precipitate a hard fork that leaves people behind.

02:04 <adnn> ...aka the crux of the debate

02:04 <bsm117532> gmaxwell: elaborate?

02:05 <bsm117532> have I offended you?

02:05 <gmaxwell> There is nothing wrong with full blocks, and blocks have been "full" relative to what miners would produce for _years_. Full blocks is the natural state of the system: The demand for externalized-cost highly replicated external storage at price zero is effectively infinite.

02:06 <gmaxwell> bsm117532: A little, you've been around here long enough to have absorbed this view-- even if you don't agree with it, stating something 180 degress off as a simple fact is a bit frustrating to deal with :-/

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02:07 <alpalp> the only reason we dont consistently have "full" blocks is relay limits and miners too lazy to change things

02:08 <bsm117532> gmaxwell: We must solve this problem while the fee profit of miners is ~0.2%, and the effectively are not exerting an opinion. If fee profits were higher, they would lobby to keep them, at the expense of small blocks, and zero growth of the system.

02:08 <dgenr8> alpalp: here i thought it was because not that many people used bitcoin yet

02:08 <bsm117532> We are far too young in bitcoin's history to have this kind of pressure...

02:09 <alpalp> dgenr8, using bitcoin could be using the blockchain to backup your hard drive if there was no fee pressure.

02:09 <alpalp> bsm117532, pure FUD, what is the worst that happens?

02:09 <bsm117532> gmaxwell: Are you arguing "fee pressure is good" and therefore small blocks and zero growth are desirable?

02:09 <midnightmagic> :-/ Is rehashing old pointless, already-rehashed discussion with lots of bald assertions really what you're going over, dude..

02:09 <gmaxwell> bsm117532: Stop with the absolutist language, shades of Hearn. "We must" -- on what objective basis?

02:09 <midnightmagic> in -wizards

02:09 <bsm117532> Uh. confused.

02:10 <dgenr8> alpalp: and yet even that is not happening

02:10 <bsm117532> alpalp: What is FUD?

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02:10 <alpalp> bsm117532, that "we are far too young". What is worst case scenario? fees go up a bit, and people use alternatives for a little?

02:11 <alpalp> dgenr8, thats because we have minimum relay fees and a block size limit!

02:11 <gmaxwell> bsm117532: fee pressure is an intentional part of the system design and to the best of the current understanding essential for the system's long term survial. So, uh, yes. It's good.

02:11 <dgenr8> limit was hit exactly once prior to September 2014

02:11 <midnightmagic> dgenr8: Also false.

02:12 <dgenr8> midnightmagic: perhaps bsm117532 means that everything good that's happened for bitcoin's

02:12 <bsm117532> Fee pressure is an artificial imposition on the system.

02:13 <dgenr8> midnightmagic: sorry ... here you go http://i.imgur.com/5Gfh9CW.png

02:13 <bsm117532> It is not caused by lack of bandwith or computation. It's is a constant in a file and we can do better.

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02:13 <alpalp> bsm117532, stupid satoshi putting fees in the original design

02:13 <midnightmagic> geh, so not -wizard material.

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02:13 <bsm117532> I'm taking this to #bitcoin

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02:26 * bsm117532 disengages from the toxic block size debate, and goes back to braids, which might be a better long-term solution...

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02:27 <zookolaptop> Yay braids

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02:38 <PeterR> Here is a visual of the empirical block size distribution since Block 0: http://imgur.com/uPneQ5N,izo03ie

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02:41 <bsm117532> There is no number, or algorithm WRT said number, that is the "right" solution. The correct solution is to remove the number from the problem.

02:41 <brg444> anybody find these drive bys hilarious

02:41 <bsm117532> PeterR that's a good plot.

02:41 <bsm117532> PeterR wants my braids paper. This is why I'm at the computer on a Saturday night...

02:42 <zookolaptop> bsm117532: hold on just let me get ops power and I'll ban you from -wizards until 24 hours from now.

02:42 <zookolaptop> Thank me later!

02:43 <zookolaptop> Actually could you ban me from twitter?

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02:45 <bsm117532> OTOH I found a new algorithm to find cohorts, which is O(N). (cohort is kind-of the analog of a block -- you don't want it to take a long time to find which subset of incoming data is the right one to analyze...)

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02:53 <PeterR> bsm117532: Thanks! I like those two animations because they illustrate how the block size is empirically different than the block reward.

02:54 <PeterR> There have been "obstructions" to the block size in the past at 250kb, 350kb, 750kb and now at 1MB, but "Bitcoin" has always broken them down.

02:55 <PeterR> bsm117532: Yes, looking forward to the paper. And I believe Chris will be in touch shortly about one for you to review. Thanks :)

02:56 <kanzure> bsm117532: bitcoin itself is an arbitrary imposition, i think your statement about fee pressure is a non-statement (re: "arbitrary imposition").

02:56 <bsm117532> PeterR: I received a review request today and confirmed on the website, I'm happy to review!

02:57 <PeterR> Perfect!

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02:57 <bsm117532> kanzure: I'm referring to the block size as a number, disconnected from the bandwidth. In principle the actual restriction should be the bandwidth, but it's not because of a number in the protocol, which is arbitrary.

02:58 <bsm117532> Also the fact that a "block" is a very spiky bandwidth distribution...

02:58 <kanzure> well you can't measure bandwidth in a decentralized system anyway

02:58 <kanzure> so i'm not sure why you would mention the bandwidth here? all we can do is just try our best to make the bandwidth requirements to go down.

02:59 <bsm117532> My point is: 1MB/10min=1.6kb/s is not a restriction that anyone is concerned about.

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02:59 <kanzure> the actual restriction should be a protofcol-level rule to avoid the impossibility of measuring bandwidth

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03:01 <bsm117532> The actual bandwidth requirement is (block size)/(block verification time) which is the SPV mining window.

03:01 <bsm117532> We'd be better off spreading the load over 10 min, if it didn't cause orphans...

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03:03 <r0ach> Surprised virtually nobody mentions the ethical issue of block size involving utility vs greater fool theory: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178336.msg13579158#msg13579158

03:05 <brg444> https://github.com/LightningNetwork/lnd

03:09 <bsm117532> "It's funny how the dev side has more small blockers, while the speculation side is almost entirely large blockers nowadays. Why is this? Because the dev side doesn't understand markets," -- No, it's because the market side doesn't understand software engineering. This is an artificial restriction. There are other ways to lift it.

03:10 <alpalp> what makes you think the speculation side is in favor of big blocks?

03:10 <bsm117532> I'm disengaging from this argument...

03:10 <bsm117532> Not very good at it, I grant you...

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03:19 <adnn> alpalp: It is my understanding that some Chinese miners are concerned that block size dead lock is hurting the price and block size bump will prove that we "can do it"

03:19 <adnn> ironically their most recent calls to action have hurt the price further.

03:20 <alpalp> adnn, maybe that golden egg laying goose is full of gold!

03:20 <alpalp> lets kill it!

03:20 <adnn> lol

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03:22 <pigeons> ;;topic

03:22 <gribble> This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja

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03:43 <moa> bsm117532 1MB/10min=1.6kB/s = 13.3 kb/s

03:45 <bsm117532> I've never heard anyone claim they couldn't get a 14.4 kb/s modem in 2016.

03:46 <bsm117532> That's laughable.

03:49 <oneeman> bsm1175321: where can I read about braids? Just https://scalingbitcoin.org/hongkong2015/presentations/DAY2/2_breaking_the_chain_1_mcelrath.pdf or is there also a more 'texty' whitepaper or something?

03:50 <bsm117532> oneeman: Working on it now, paper will be out in ~days...

03:50 <oneeman> sweet

03:52 <moa> I was simply pointing out your mixing bits and bytes units nomenclature and the actual bandwidth requirement for full blocks is at least 2xblocksize (some say 8x)

03:52 <bsm117532> oneeman: happy to field questions here if you've read the talk...

03:53 <bsm117532> moa: that's never the argument, because the protocol is spiky in bandwidth. So, we need to improve the protocol.

03:54 <moa> have no idea what 'argument' you are referencing here.

03:54 <bsm117532> moa: the argument given by anyone about anything to do with block size increase.

03:55 <moa> which argument?

03:56 <bsm117532> moa: block size arguments.

03:56 * bsm117532 disengages...

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04:09 <oneeman> bsm117532: thanks. I just skimmed the slides, will look into it more when the paper comes out

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04:45 <kanzure> https://github.com/LightningNetwork/lightning-onion

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04:47 <kanzure> roasbeef: https://github.com/LightningNetwork/lnd/pull/1

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04:54 <adnn> kanzure: can't wait for the day we have LN nodes set up as hidden services routing payments via Hornet/Sphinx

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05:14 <roasbeef> kanzure: thanks! merged :)

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17:13 <pigeons> amiller: have you looked at that scorex permacoin implementation?

17:14 <amiller> nope, didn't notice that

17:14 <amiller> my google alert must have failed me

17:14 <amiller> thanks pigeons!

17:14 <amiller> oh, i know a little bit about that one

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19:49 <PeterR> True of False: An "empty block" (coinbase-only) is empirically more likely to be mined after a large block than small block.

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19:56 <arubi> because why..? no transactions were made during the (average) 10 minutes in between these blocks?

19:56 <arubi> oh, he left.

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19:58 <alpalp> I would expect true because an empty block typically indicates a clearing of mempool and a fast block found or a slow to propagate block that is SPV mined.

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20:01 <arubi> when was the last time mempool was cleared at your end alpalp? :)

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20:03 <alpalp> If we are talking historically for empiracal evidence its happened a lot :)

20:03 <arubi> hehe, I guess you're right, looking far back enough

20:08 <alpalp> So you could have a lot of prior-to-empty blocks being small just due to very low volume

20:08 <alpalp> id imagine that is the case for the first few years

20:09 <alpalp> so it depends a lot on the situation

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20:12 <arubi> it does, currently I imagine some very specific miners are mining 'empty' blocks, for whatever reasons, probably small miners who don't care about the fees and only want fast propagation

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20:20 <Luke-Jr> arubi: all miners are mining empty blocks when the alternative is a stale block

20:20 <Luke-Jr> well, most I guess

20:20 <Luke-Jr> stupid ckpool doesn't

20:21 <arubi> Luke-Jr, what do you mean by the alternative?

20:21 <arubi> I mean, how do they know beforehand that it might be stale?

20:22 <Luke-Jr> arubi: when a miner gets a new block from someone else, the following events occur:

20:22 <instagibbs> lol getting baited by peter_r to answer something. good stuff

20:22 <Luke-Jr> 1) they receive the block header; at this point, they know they are mining stale blocks on the previous block

20:22 <Luke-Jr> 2) they receive the block itself

20:22 <Luke-Jr> 3) they validate the block itself

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20:22 <Luke-Jr> 4) they caclulate the transactions to go into the next block, following that new block

20:23 <Luke-Jr> any sane miner will mine empty blocks as soon as 3 is complete, until 4 is done

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20:23 <Luke-Jr> headers-only miners mine empty blocks beginning after 1

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20:23 <Luke-Jr> at any point in these 4 steps, if they are NOT mining empty blocks, they ARE mining a stale block COMPETING with the new blcok

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20:25 <arubi> Luke-Jr, ah, I see. so sometimes they happen to hit a block before they validate the transactions that might go into the new block, but they're also taking a risk if they don't validate the block itself and only mine on top of the header

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20:25 <Luke-Jr> well, they're putting the network at risk in that case

20:26 <arubi> hm. the network being most that don't validate blocks at all then?

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20:28 <arubi> talking about miners who start mining after 1

20:30 <arubi> (as mining after 3 will simply strengthen the security of all transactions mined before the empty block is found and accepted)

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20:34 <Lightsword> Luke-Jr, step 4 is largely negligable with aggressive enough filtering even in 0.11.2 at least from my profiling. The biggest issue is receiving the block itself vs just receiving the headers over stratum.

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20:38 <Lightsword> antpool has been basically triggering selfish mining attacks with its poor propagation

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21:14 <PeterR> The correct answer is TRUE.

21:14 <PeterR> The probability of an empty block following a 1 MB block is ~4.7%, ~3.1% after a 500 kB block, and ~1.7% after a very small block.

21:14 <PeterR> Reference: http://www.bitcoinunlimited.info/1txn/

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21:39 <arubi> weird. timed out right after I said that ^. did he respond?

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21:43 <PeterR> Luke-jr: that is my understanding as well regarding the sequence of events for receiving a block.

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21:45 <PeterR> What does Eligius do after #1 but before #3? Do you continue to mine on the stale block, mine an empty block on the not-yet-validated block, turn your miners off and wait, or something else?

21:46 <Luke-Jr> PeterR: Is that with HO mining or just normal/safe mining?

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21:47 <PeterR> I'm sorry. I don't understand your question.

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21:47 <Luke-Jr> PeterR: Eligius continues to mine the stale block; Stratum does not really allow for the ideal case. :<

21:47 <Luke-Jr> [21:14:41] <PeterR> The probability of an empty block following a 1 MB block is ~4.7%, ~3.1% after a 500 kB block, and ~1.7% after a very small block. <-- referring to these

21:47 <PeterR> Ok thanks for the info.

21:48 <Luke-Jr> headers-only-caused empty blocks, or normal empty blocks?

21:49 <Luke-Jr> PeterR: to be clear, the ideal case IMO is that for 1-3, you would mine on the new block header, but delay submitting any block found until the validation completed; the problem is that there is no way to tell miners "go back to the last block" as they consider that a 51% attack attempt

21:49 <PeterR> Oh, regarding the data. Andrew Stone (theZerg) looked at all empty blocks but I think removed cases when there were two empty blocks in a row. He was analyzing how the likeliness of an empty block depends on how big the prior block was.

21:50 <PeterR> Luke-Jr: agree that that would be idea.

21:50 <PeterR> *ideal

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21:51 <Luke-Jr> ah, so it's a mix of both scenarios in practice

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22:01 <r0ach> Luke-Jr: Since it's impossible for Bitcoin to not have central bankers unless you have 0 transaction fee and unlimited block size, what is your opinion on a forced minimum transaction fee (pro/against/neutral)

22:03 <Luke-Jr> r0ach: you can't really force it. miners could always pay it back.

22:03 <r0ach> but that would fall back on game theory of pools attacking the network they operate on

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22:14 <Luke-Jr> r0ach: well, I don't see a benefit to it

22:14 <Luke-Jr> unless it's combined with some kind of fees-get-shared-with-the-next-block thing

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22:24 <smooth> its actually harmful imo to incentivize situations where miners are paying back fees, or paying out of band to avoid sharing with future blocks

22:25 <smooth> if you want minimum fees they have to be burned like ppc

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22:35 <r0ach> Luke-Jr & Smooth: The Satoshi quote on that subject:

22:35 <r0ach> "If we started getting DoS attacked with loads of wasted transactions back and forth, you would need to start paying a 0.01 minimum transaction fee. 0.1.5 actually had an option to set that, but I took it out to reduce confusion. Free transactions are nice and we can keep it that way if people don't abuse them."

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22:50 <adnn_> Lightsword: do you have any more info/data to share RE antpool's poor propagation?

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22:50 <adnn_> Is it specifically worse than other pools in china (f2pool)?

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22:50 <Lightsword> adnn_, yeah see here https://gist.github.com/jameshilliard/5e0352f63a24acd9cf5f

22:51 <adnn_> Thank you!

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22:51 <Lightsword> I’ve seen this happen a number of times

22:51 <Lightsword> see how only pools that miner on headers switch to the new block

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22:53 <adnn_> Five minutes, wow.

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23:11 <JackH> kanzure, you seen this: http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/01/17/e-cash-satoshi-for-reddit/e-cash-satoshi-for-reddit.pdf

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23:57 <AdrianG> JackH: tldr?

23:57 <smooth> AdrianG: block that took 5 min to get out of china

23:58 <AdrianG> ?

23:58 <smooth> what JackH posted

23:58 <AdrianG> what do you mean?

23:58 <smooth> oh sorry wrong link

23:58 <smooth> nvm

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