sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mrkent has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AvatarA has joined #bitcoin-wizards
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
conner has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GGuyZ has quit [Quit: GGuyZ]
zookolaptop has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
voxelot has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
shovel_boss has joined #bitcoin-wizards
laurentmt has quit [Quit: laurentmt]
<bsm117532>
bramc: It's definitely a whiny ragequit.
voxelot has joined #bitcoin-wizards
fewfef has joined #bitcoin-wizards
binary01 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
fewfef has quit [Quit: Page closed]
GAit has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
adnn has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
epscy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mrkent_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mrkent has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
supasonic has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adnn has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zookolaptop has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<smooth>
it is, but calling it that is behaving no better
Piper-Off is now known as Monthrect
<brg444>
smooth Sorry Core devs can't pay for ny times feature
<bsm117532>
To the points at the end of bramc's post: there is NO RIGHT ANSWER to "what is the right block size". Bitcoin uses an inappropriate data structure (a linked list). The solution is some deeper re-engineering to remove the problem entirely. We need to buy time to do that engineering. So a near-term bump is a reasonable option. Segwit is good for a whole host of other reasons that have nothing to do with block size
copumpkin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GGuyZ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<smooth>
there clearly is a right answer for any given state of technology and marketplace. Identifying it may be difficult.
<smooth>
and other solutions may be better still
<brg444>
bsm117532: No one is disputing this AFAIK but as you mention needing appropriate time it's important for everyone to acknowledge this is a manufactured "crisis" that aims to precipitate the due process
<bsm117532>
brg444: I think the "next solution" has not emerged yet, so people are being stupid. I'm working as fast as I can, and I'm not the only one.
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<bsm117532>
People who don't do software engineering can't even imagine another solution...
<brg444>
bsm117532: change a constant! "Off with their head!"
Tiraspol has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
Tiraspol has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Tiraspol has quit [Changing host]
Tiraspol has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Monthrect is now known as Piper-Off
<bramc>
The blocksize bump in segwit is clearly the pragmatic thing to right now given current technical and political realities
<bsm117532>
The blocksize bump is necessary no matter what, because of current transaction volume realities. Segwit is very useful far beyond an effective block size increase, but is (probably) too far out to solve the near-term problem of hitting full blocks on the regular.
<brg444>
is it?
<gmaxwell>
bsm117532: you're working from an offensively wrong premise.
<brg444>
I'd rather have full blocks then precipitate a hard fork that leaves people behind.
<adnn>
...aka the crux of the debate
<bsm117532>
gmaxwell: elaborate?
<bsm117532>
have I offended you?
<gmaxwell>
There is nothing wrong with full blocks, and blocks have been "full" relative to what miners would produce for _years_. Full blocks is the natural state of the system: The demand for externalized-cost highly replicated external storage at price zero is effectively infinite.
<gmaxwell>
bsm117532: A little, you've been around here long enough to have absorbed this view-- even if you don't agree with it, stating something 180 degress off as a simple fact is a bit frustrating to deal with :-/
zfsoja has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
<alpalp>
the only reason we dont consistently have "full" blocks is relay limits and miners too lazy to change things
<bsm117532>
gmaxwell: We must solve this problem while the fee profit of miners is ~0.2%, and the effectively are not exerting an opinion. If fee profits were higher, they would lobby to keep them, at the expense of small blocks, and zero growth of the system.
<dgenr8>
alpalp: here i thought it was because not that many people used bitcoin yet
<bsm117532>
We are far too young in bitcoin's history to have this kind of pressure...
<alpalp>
dgenr8, using bitcoin could be using the blockchain to backup your hard drive if there was no fee pressure.
<alpalp>
bsm117532, pure FUD, what is the worst that happens?
<bsm117532>
gmaxwell: Are you arguing "fee pressure is good" and therefore small blocks and zero growth are desirable?
<midnightmagic>
:-/ Is rehashing old pointless, already-rehashed discussion with lots of bald assertions really what you're going over, dude..
<gmaxwell>
bsm117532: Stop with the absolutist language, shades of Hearn. "We must" -- on what objective basis?
<midnightmagic>
in -wizards
<bsm117532>
Uh. confused.
<dgenr8>
alpalp: and yet even that is not happening
<bsm117532>
alpalp: What is FUD?
frankenmint has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<alpalp>
bsm117532, that "we are far too young". What is worst case scenario? fees go up a bit, and people use alternatives for a little?
<alpalp>
dgenr8, thats because we have minimum relay fees and a block size limit!
<gmaxwell>
bsm117532: fee pressure is an intentional part of the system design and to the best of the current understanding essential for the system's long term survial. So, uh, yes. It's good.
<dgenr8>
limit was hit exactly once prior to September 2014
<midnightmagic>
dgenr8: Also false.
<dgenr8>
midnightmagic: perhaps bsm117532 means that everything good that's happened for bitcoin's
<bsm117532>
Fee pressure is an artificial imposition on the system.
<bsm117532>
There is no number, or algorithm WRT said number, that is the "right" solution. The correct solution is to remove the number from the problem.
<brg444>
anybody find these drive bys hilarious
<bsm117532>
PeterR that's a good plot.
<bsm117532>
PeterR wants my braids paper. This is why I'm at the computer on a Saturday night...
<zookolaptop>
bsm117532: hold on just let me get ops power and I'll ban you from -wizards until 24 hours from now.
<zookolaptop>
Thank me later!
<zookolaptop>
Actually could you ban me from twitter?
raedah has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
rustyn has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
rustyn has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<bsm117532>
OTOH I found a new algorithm to find cohorts, which is O(N). (cohort is kind-of the analog of a block -- you don't want it to take a long time to find which subset of incoming data is the right one to analyze...)
PeterR has joined #bitcoin-wizards
binaryFate has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
<PeterR>
bsm117532: Thanks! I like those two animations because they illustrate how the block size is empirically different than the block reward.
<PeterR>
There have been "obstructions" to the block size in the past at 250kb, 350kb, 750kb and now at 1MB, but "Bitcoin" has always broken them down.
<PeterR>
bsm117532: Yes, looking forward to the paper. And I believe Chris will be in touch shortly about one for you to review. Thanks :)
<kanzure>
bsm117532: bitcoin itself is an arbitrary imposition, i think your statement about fee pressure is a non-statement (re: "arbitrary imposition").
<bsm117532>
PeterR: I received a review request today and confirmed on the website, I'm happy to review!
<PeterR>
Perfect!
tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
<bsm117532>
kanzure: I'm referring to the block size as a number, disconnected from the bandwidth. In principle the actual restriction should be the bandwidth, but it's not because of a number in the protocol, which is arbitrary.
<bsm117532>
Also the fact that a "block" is a very spiky bandwidth distribution...
<kanzure>
well you can't measure bandwidth in a decentralized system anyway
<kanzure>
so i'm not sure why you would mention the bandwidth here? all we can do is just try our best to make the bandwidth requirements to go down.
<bsm117532>
My point is: 1MB/10min=1.6kb/s is not a restriction that anyone is concerned about.
_rht has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<kanzure>
the actual restriction should be a protofcol-level rule to avoid the impossibility of measuring bandwidth
raedah has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<bsm117532>
The actual bandwidth requirement is (block size)/(block verification time) which is the SPV mining window.
<bsm117532>
We'd be better off spreading the load over 10 min, if it didn't cause orphans...
<bsm117532>
"It's funny how the dev side has more small blockers, while the speculation side is almost entirely large blockers nowadays. Why is this? Because the dev side doesn't understand markets," -- No, it's because the market side doesn't understand software engineering. This is an artificial restriction. There are other ways to lift it.
<alpalp>
what makes you think the speculation side is in favor of big blocks?
<bsm117532>
I'm disengaging from this argument...
<bsm117532>
Not very good at it, I grant you...
GGuyZ has quit [Quit: GGuyZ]
<adnn>
alpalp: It is my understanding that some Chinese miners are concerned that block size dead lock is hurting the price and block size bump will prove that we "can do it"
<adnn>
ironically their most recent calls to action have hurt the price further.
<alpalp>
adnn, maybe that golden egg laying goose is full of gold!
<alpalp>
lets kill it!
<adnn>
lol
rusty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<pigeons>
;;topic
<gribble>
This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
nuke1989 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
IAmNotDorian has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
rusty has left #bitcoin-wizards [#bitcoin-wizards]
PeterR has quit [Quit: Page closed]
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Giszmo has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
Ylbam has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
conner has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
dEBRUYNE has quit [Quit: Leaving]
brg444 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
conner has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<moa>
bsm117532 1MB/10min=1.6kB/s = 13.3 kb/s
<bsm117532>
I've never heard anyone claim they couldn't get a 14.4 kb/s modem in 2016.
<bsm117532>
oneeman: Working on it now, paper will be out in ~days...
<oneeman>
sweet
<moa>
I was simply pointing out your mixing bits and bytes units nomenclature and the actual bandwidth requirement for full blocks is at least 2xblocksize (some say 8x)
<bsm117532>
oneeman: happy to field questions here if you've read the talk...
<bsm117532>
moa: that's never the argument, because the protocol is spiky in bandwidth. So, we need to improve the protocol.
<moa>
have no idea what 'argument' you are referencing here.
<bsm117532>
moa: the argument given by anyone about anything to do with block size increase.
<moa>
which argument?
<bsm117532>
moa: block size arguments.
* bsm117532
disengages...
AvatarA has quit [Quit: Leaving]
roconnor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<oneeman>
bsm117532: thanks. I just skimmed the slides, will look into it more when the paper comes out
TheSeven has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
TheSeven has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adam3us has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
adam3us has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
brg444 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jcorgan has left #bitcoin-wizards [#bitcoin-wizards]
<adnn>
kanzure: can't wait for the day we have LN nodes set up as hidden services routing payments via Hornet/Sphinx
Burrito has quit [Quit: Leaving]
brg444 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
mrkent has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<roasbeef>
kanzure: thanks! merged :)
oneeman has quit [Quit: Leaving]
roconnor has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
priidu has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
dcousens has left #bitcoin-wizards [#bitcoin-wizards]
tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kang_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
voxelot has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
IAmNotDorian has joined #bitcoin-wizards
IAmNotDorian has quit [Changing host]
IAmNotDorian has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Tomiii has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
shovel_boss has joined #bitcoin-wizards
erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
throughnothing has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards
IAmNotDorian has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
conner has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
conner has joined #bitcoin-wizards
throughnothing has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
gielbier has quit [Quit: Leaving]
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has quit [Changing host]
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mrkent has quit []
mrkent has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitcoin-wizards1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Ylbam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
teslax has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitcoin-wizards1 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
paveljanik has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Guest25__ has quit [Read error: No route to host]
se3000 has quit [Read error: No route to host]
supasonic has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
frankenmint has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
frankenmint has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kang_ has quit [Quit: Page closed]
tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards
andy-logbot has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
andy-logbot has joined #bitcoin-wizards
* andy-logbot
is logging
Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Erik_dc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
shovel_boss has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
LeMiner has joined #bitcoin-wizards
p15x has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
murch has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Erik_dc has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
erasmospunk has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
bramc has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
Guyver2 has quit [Quit: :)]
erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adam3us has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
markus-k has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adlai has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
arowser has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
arowser has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards
markus-k has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
adlai has joined #bitcoin-wizards
priidu has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adam3us has joined #bitcoin-wizards
shesek has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
GAit has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Tomiii has joined #bitcoin-wizards
IAmNotDorian has joined #bitcoin-wizards
IAmNotDorian has joined #bitcoin-wizards
IAmNotDorian has quit [Changing host]
moa has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
conner has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards
p15x has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
markus-k has joined #bitcoin-wizards
_rht has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
oneeman has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GAit has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
murch has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
GAit has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
trippysalmon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nanasho has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adnn_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adnn has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
asoltys has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
dEBRUYNE has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
face has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Piper-Off is now known as Monthrect
sparetire has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GAit has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mlt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
fkhan_ has quit [Quit: fkhan_]
straylight has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitcoin-wizards5 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards
straylight has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
bitcoin-wizards5 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
p0op0o has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AlienTrooper has quit [Changing host]
AlienTrooper has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zookolaptop has joined #bitcoin-wizards
p0op0o has quit [Client Quit]
hashtag has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
hashtag has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
GamerSg has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards
davec has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
davec has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
GGuyZ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
binaryFate has joined #bitcoin-wizards
shesek has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GGuyZ has quit [Quit: GGuyZ]
GamerSg has quit [Quit: Page closed]
GGuyZ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
fkhan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
fkhan has quit [Changing host]
fkhan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
fkhan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
voxelot has joined #bitcoin-wizards
voxelot has quit [Changing host]
voxelot has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mlt has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mrkent has quit []
GGuyZ has quit [Quit: GGuyZ]
tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
GGuyZ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
_rht has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards
conner has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bsm117532 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
bsm117532 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
voxelot has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
c0rw|away is now known as c0rw1n
murch has joined #bitcoin-wizards
binaryFate has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
conner has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
voxelot has joined #bitcoin-wizards
lnovy has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
lnovy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
newimage has joined #bitcoin-wizards
copumpkin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
conner has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
voxelot has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
erasmospunk has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
_rht has quit []
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
laurentmt has quit [Client Quit]
<pigeons>
amiller: have you looked at that scorex permacoin implementation?
<amiller>
nope, didn't notice that
<amiller>
my google alert must have failed me
<amiller>
thanks pigeons!
<amiller>
oh, i know a little bit about that one
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
soupcan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-wizards
voxelot has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GGuyZ_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GGuyZ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
GGuyZ_ is now known as GGuyZ
copumpkin has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
zookolaptop has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
coinoperated has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
bramc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has quit [Quit: Quitte]
murch has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
bramc is now known as Guest33801
coinoperated has joined #bitcoin-wizards
coinoperated has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
dEBRUYNE has quit [Quit: Leaving]
_rht has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
zookolaptop has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GAit has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
Burrito has joined #bitcoin-wizards
b_lumenkraft has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
roconnor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
belcher has joined #bitcoin-wizards
brg444 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
RoboTeddy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
manksi has quit []
RoboTedd_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
RoboTeddy has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
arowser has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]
Erik_dc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
arowser has joined #bitcoin-wizards
frankenmint has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Guest33801 has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
wallet42 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
b_lumenkraft has quit [Quit: b_lumenkraft]
trippysalmon has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
raedah has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
Yoghur114_2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards
memymo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
conner has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
PeterR has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wangchun has quit [Quit: leaving]
wangchun has joined #bitcoin-wizards
frankenmint has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<PeterR>
True of False: An "empty block" (coinbase-only) is empirically more likely to be mined after a large block than small block.
wangchun has quit [Client Quit]
wangchun has joined #bitcoin-wizards
PeterR has quit [Quit: Page closed]
wangchun has quit [Client Quit]
Crowley4k has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wangchun has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nanasho has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<arubi>
because why..? no transactions were made during the (average) 10 minutes in between these blocks?
<arubi>
oh, he left.
conner has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zookolaptop has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
<alpalp>
I would expect true because an empty block typically indicates a clearing of mempool and a fast block found or a slow to propagate block that is SPV mined.
waxwing has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bitcoin-wizards9 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<arubi>
when was the last time mempool was cleared at your end alpalp? :)
waxwing has joined #bitcoin-wizards
memymo has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
<alpalp>
If we are talking historically for empiracal evidence its happened a lot :)
<arubi>
hehe, I guess you're right, looking far back enough
<alpalp>
So you could have a lot of prior-to-empty blocks being small just due to very low volume
<alpalp>
id imagine that is the case for the first few years
<alpalp>
so it depends a lot on the situation
raedah has joined #bitcoin-wizards
oneeman has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<arubi>
it does, currently I imagine some very specific miners are mining 'empty' blocks, for whatever reasons, probably small miners who don't care about the fees and only want fast propagation
shovel_boss has joined #bitcoin-wizards
blackwraith has joined #bitcoin-wizards
priidu has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
bitcoin-wizards9 has quit [Quit: Page closed]
<Luke-Jr>
arubi: all miners are mining empty blocks when the alternative is a stale block
<Luke-Jr>
well, most I guess
<Luke-Jr>
stupid ckpool doesn't
<arubi>
Luke-Jr, what do you mean by the alternative?
<arubi>
I mean, how do they know beforehand that it might be stale?
<Luke-Jr>
arubi: when a miner gets a new block from someone else, the following events occur:
<instagibbs>
lol getting baited by peter_r to answer something. good stuff
<Luke-Jr>
1) they receive the block header; at this point, they know they are mining stale blocks on the previous block
<Luke-Jr>
2) they receive the block itself
<Luke-Jr>
3) they validate the block itself
RoboTedd_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<Luke-Jr>
4) they caclulate the transactions to go into the next block, following that new block
<Luke-Jr>
any sane miner will mine empty blocks as soon as 3 is complete, until 4 is done
RoboTeddy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
RoboTeddy has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<Luke-Jr>
headers-only miners mine empty blocks beginning after 1
RoboTeddy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
RoboTeddy has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<Luke-Jr>
at any point in these 4 steps, if they are NOT mining empty blocks, they ARE mining a stale block COMPETING with the new blcok
Yoghur114_2 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<arubi>
Luke-Jr, ah, I see. so sometimes they happen to hit a block before they validate the transactions that might go into the new block, but they're also taking a risk if they don't validate the block itself and only mine on top of the header
Yoghur114_2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mrkent has joined #bitcoin-wizards
voxelot has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
<Luke-Jr>
well, they're putting the network at risk in that case
<arubi>
hm. the network being most that don't validate blocks at all then?
Yoghur114_2 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<arubi>
talking about miners who start mining after 1
<arubi>
(as mining after 3 will simply strengthen the security of all transactions mined before the empty block is found and accepted)
markus-k has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
laurentmt has quit [Quit: laurentmt]
<Lightsword>
Luke-Jr, step 4 is largely negligable with aggressive enough filtering even in 0.11.2 at least from my profiling. The biggest issue is receiving the block itself vs just receiving the headers over stratum.
adam3us has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
adam3us has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<Lightsword>
antpool has been basically triggering selfish mining attacks with its poor propagation
zookolaptop has joined #bitcoin-wizards
shovel_boss_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
roidster has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards
memymo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
shovel_boss has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
shovel_boss has joined #bitcoin-wizards
shovel_boss_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
conner has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
sneak has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
sneak has joined #bitcoin-wizards
sneak has quit [Changing host]
sneak has joined #bitcoin-wizards
conner has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards
paveljanik has quit [Quit: Leaving]
conner has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
conner has joined #bitcoin-wizards
PeterR has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<PeterR>
The correct answer is TRUE.
<PeterR>
The probability of an empty block following a 1 MB block is ~4.7%, ~3.1% after a 500 kB block, and ~1.7% after a very small block.
gmaxwell has left #bitcoin-wizards [#bitcoin-wizards]
oneeman has joined #bitcoin-wizards
gocrazy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
PeterR has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
trippysalmon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
conner has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
shovel_boss has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
jtimon has quit [*.net *.split]
AndChat|435584 has quit [*.net *.split]
arubi has quit [*.net *.split]
Anduck has quit [*.net *.split]
BrainOverfl0w has quit [*.net *.split]
eamonnw has quit [*.net *.split]
merlincorey has quit [*.net *.split]
shesek has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
Yoghur114_2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GGuyZ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
GAit has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
arubi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Yoghur114_2 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<arubi>
weird. timed out right after I said that ^. did he respond?
Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
PeterR has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<PeterR>
Luke-jr: that is my understanding as well regarding the sequence of events for receiving a block.
GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<PeterR>
What does Eligius do after #1 but before #3? Do you continue to mine on the stale block, mine an empty block on the not-yet-validated block, turn your miners off and wait, or something else?
<Luke-Jr>
PeterR: Is that with HO mining or just normal/safe mining?
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has quit [Changing host]
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<PeterR>
I'm sorry. I don't understand your question.
trippysalmon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<Luke-Jr>
PeterR: Eligius continues to mine the stale block; Stratum does not really allow for the ideal case. :<
<Luke-Jr>
[21:14:41] <PeterR> The probability of an empty block following a 1 MB block is ~4.7%, ~3.1% after a 500 kB block, and ~1.7% after a very small block. <-- referring to these
<PeterR>
Ok thanks for the info.
<Luke-Jr>
headers-only-caused empty blocks, or normal empty blocks?
<Luke-Jr>
PeterR: to be clear, the ideal case IMO is that for 1-3, you would mine on the new block header, but delay submitting any block found until the validation completed; the problem is that there is no way to tell miners "go back to the last block" as they consider that a 51% attack attempt
<PeterR>
Oh, regarding the data. Andrew Stone (theZerg) looked at all empty blocks but I think removed cases when there were two empty blocks in a row. He was analyzing how the likeliness of an empty block depends on how big the prior block was.
<PeterR>
Luke-Jr: agree that that would be idea.
<PeterR>
*ideal
gielbier has joined #bitcoin-wizards
gielbier has quit [Changing host]
gielbier has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<Luke-Jr>
ah, so it's a mix of both scenarios in practice
frankenmint has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
PeterR has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
dEBRUYNE has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<r0ach>
Luke-Jr: Since it's impossible for Bitcoin to not have central bankers unless you have 0 transaction fee and unlimited block size, what is your opinion on a forced minimum transaction fee (pro/against/neutral)
<Luke-Jr>
r0ach: you can't really force it. miners could always pay it back.
<r0ach>
but that would fall back on game theory of pools attacking the network they operate on
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
eamonnw has joined #bitcoin-wizards
merlincorey has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AndChat|435584 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Pugg- has quit [Quit: EliteBNC free bnc service - http://elitebnc.org - be a part of the Elite!]
BrainOverfl0w has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Pugg has joined #bitcoin-wizards
null_radix has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
voxelot has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<Luke-Jr>
r0ach: well, I don't see a benefit to it
<Luke-Jr>
unless it's combined with some kind of fees-get-shared-with-the-next-block thing
null_rad- has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Pugg has quit [Quit: EliteBNC free bnc service - http://elitebnc.org - be a part of the Elite!]
prosody is now known as lower
binaryFate has joined #bitcoin-wizards
null_rad- has quit [Client Quit]
lower is now known as lo
lo is now known as e_low
Pugg has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
null_radix has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<smooth>
its actually harmful imo to incentivize situations where miners are paying back fees, or paying out of band to avoid sharing with future blocks
<smooth>
if you want minimum fees they have to be burned like ppc
LeMiner has quit [*.net *.split]
binaryFateCloud has quit [*.net *.split]
K1773R has quit [*.net *.split]
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
LeMiner has joined #bitcoin-wizards
binaryFateCloud has joined #bitcoin-wizards
K1773R has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<r0ach>
Luke-Jr & Smooth: The Satoshi quote on that subject:
<r0ach>
"If we started getting DoS attacked with loads of wasted transactions back and forth, you would need to start paying a 0.01 minimum transaction fee. 0.1.5 actually had an option to set that, but I took it out to reduce confusion. Free transactions are nice and we can keep it that way if people don't abuse them."
GAit has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
newimage has quit [Quit: Page closed]
zookolaptop has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
IAmNotDorian has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
Anduck has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bsm117532 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
berndj has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
bsm117532 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zm4c1n3 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
Cory has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
jouke has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
Transisto2 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
jouke has joined #bitcoin-wizards
melvster has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
STRML_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
bad-dragon has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
<adnn_>
Lightsword: do you have any more info/data to share RE antpool's poor propagation?
melvster1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<adnn_>
Is it specifically worse than other pools in china (f2pool)?