sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
<deego>
call*
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<PeterR>
deego: what does that have to do with block propagation?
<phantomcircuit>
coinoperated, there are essentially two basic strategies for reducing block propagation times
<phantomcircuit>
coinoperated, one is to send the transaction data which is likely to be in the block in advance of the block, such that sending the block is roughly averaged out over the full 10 minute window; these all require the miners to cooperate (obviously)
<phantomcircuit>
coinoperated, the other is to send transaction data after the block is found, the block simply contains a single key and the miner signs new "mini-block" things; at the very best these schemes are significantly more difficult to reason about and the incentives much less clear
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<maaku>
AndChat|435584: what people incorrectly called O(1) block propagation, yes
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<phantomcircuit>
none of these schemes do anything to address the cost of completing initial block synchronization and as such do not really change the underlying scaling properties of the network
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<AndChat|435584>
maaku: why incorrect?
<maaku>
AndChat|435584: there is overhead
<AndChat|435584>
right
<phantomcircuit>
AndChat|435584, to be clear none of the proposals are O(1), they are at best O(n) where n is the transaction id instead of the transaction data
<phantomcircuit>
but as i keep saying... the best case is a 50% bandwidth reduction
<maaku>
phantomcircuit: if validatoin from genesis is your metric
<AndChat|435584>
phantomcircuit: Even if the mempools are synced?
<phantomcircuit>
maaku, the only metric that matters is validation cost from a trusted point
<phantomcircuit>
the only trusted point at the moment is the genesis block
<maaku>
phantomcircuit: there is room for starting with SPV security from e.g. one year back
<phantomcircuit>
maaku, that wont matter much if transaction rates increase exponentially
<phantomcircuit>
by definition most of the validation cost will be in the part being validated
<PeterR>
phantomcircuit: I still don't understand why you think the statement:
<PeterR>
"The expectation value of the time between when a miner solves a block and when 50% of the hash rate has received and validated that block increases with the size of the block mined."
<PeterR>
is deceptive
<PeterR>
Apples-to-apples, is it true or false?
<nsh>
it's more true than not true
<nsh>
will that do?
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<coinoperated>
phantomcircuit: latter one is the generic description of all weak block strategies, right? ty btw
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<phantomcircuit>
coinoperated, the former is weak blocks, the latter is bitcoin-ng
<coinoperated>
phantomcircuit oh ok I though bitcoin-ng was itself a form of weak block proposal.
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<dgenr8>
PeterR: s/increases/is nondecreasing/
<PeterR>
nsh: are you saying that there are certain apples-to-apples cases where it is not true?
<PeterR>
dgern8: yes I think it would be always true if I said nondecreasing.
<PeterR>
Sounds like nsh thinks it there are apples-to-apples cases where it is not true, if I say "increasing"
<phantomcircuit>
coinoperated, no bitcoin-ng proposes that miners do PoW on a block that contains a signing key and then create mini blocks after that with the signing key until a new miner finds a PoW block
<phantomcircuit>
coinoperated, it complicates the incentives for a number of reasons
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<nsh>
it's just not a linear relationship and one should be cautious suggesting it is beyond the regime in which that is a fair approximation. it's a nonlinear relationship that's monotonic until you reach a point where either logic or human behaviour changes result, imposing nonlineararity and unpredictability
<nsh>
*changes as a result
<PeterR>
increasing does not mean linear
<nsh>
i know
<PeterR>
t^2, log(t) are increasing functions
<nsh>
common people read between the lines. bad people write between the lines
<nsh>
:)
<PeterR>
Sounds like you think the statement is true then, as long as it is clarified that increasing != linear.
<PeterR>
Yes?
<nsh>
the problem, and i may be assuming a lot, is that the way the question is phrased makes it sound like a point in a larger argument, and i can just foresee that larger argument being predicated on an assumption of simplified behaviour that doesn't hold
<nsh>
and that would be bad
<nsh>
but it's true enough with whatever caveats you think are appropriate. where you take it matters more :)
<nsh>
(of course i'm probably just jaded and cynical because i've observed a lot of poor arguments based on seemingly reasonable observations, by virtue of being alive and paying attention for a few decades)
<coinoperated>
phantomcircuit, OIC. Sort of a HAM mode for PoW, get more Tx per 10 minute consensus frame than normally possible by spreading them out, chained to a base block
<nsh>
(it seems inevitable that we will move eventually to spread out the network block load, through some mechanism that or another)
<nsh>
(segwit seems as good as any other to me, but i'm not remotely authoritative)
<PeterR>
Personally, I like weak blocks / subchains.
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<PeterR>
But I'm interested to learn more about bsm's work on braids / DAGs
<nsh>
if you just reason in terms of the utility/urgency of network communications between nodes, there's a large spike at block discovery. that is not required by the cryptographic nor incentive system
<nsh>
it's just a byproduct of how those were wed initially
<phantomcircuit>
of course you would like something that only works under non-adversarial conditions
<maaku>
guys let's be civil
<nsh>
+1
<PeterR>
agreed. We slowly build up the block over the full 10 min.
<PeterR>
*should
<phantomcircuit>
maaku, why? he's obviously trying to get an out of context quote for something
<kanzure>
maaku: talking about adversarial conditions is civil
<phantomcircuit>
i see no reason to treat someone with any respect who is so obviously being manipulative
<PeterR>
I assume you're referring to me. How am I being manipulative?
<kanzure>
what disrespect has been shown? it's highly respectful to remember someone's previous behavior and assumptions and falsities.
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<PeterR>
I am trying to understand the way certain people here think about block propagation.
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<kanzure>
does that include full node block propagation?
<PeterR>
Specifically, I was interested in a true/false answer to the statement:
<PeterR>
"The expectation value of the time between when a miner solves a block and when 50% of the hash rate has received and validated that block increases with the size of the block mined."
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<PeterR>
Sounds like is we clarify that increase != linear, then people agree the answer is TRUE (apples-to-apples)
<kanzure>
yes he is saying it is manipulative because you have failed to share broader context and other assumptions
<moa>
it is a slippery tactic that has been used repeatedly, particularly when then refusing or disassembling later when challenged about omitted assumptions
<PeterR>
This is how we would explain it in physics: we place an observe near all miners on the network, each observer has a synchronized clock. We observe the network produce a great number of blocks and measure the results.
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<phantomcircuit>
PeterR, it is deceptive to request a true/false answer to a question for which neither true nor false is an appropriate answer
<PeterR>
Will the empirical answer be TRUE or FALSE?
<moa>
is PeterR TRUE or FALSE ... you decide
<phantomcircuit>
oh i see you have gathered some data and are looking to show how stupid we are
<moa>
it is FOX news level discussion
<PeterR>
Clearly there would be an answer, phantomcircuit.
<phantomcircuit>
maaku, i dont think my previous statement that he's a bad person is strong enough
<phantomcircuit>
PeterR, you're a terrible human being
<MrHodl>
^
<PeterR>
Because my questions and comments force you to re-think your assumptions?
<phantomcircuit>
no because you have clearly gathered data which shows the answer to be either true or false under the current network conditions and are looking to gather answers to the question such that you can discredit people without acknowledging that your data does not cover more adversarial network conditions
<moa>
you are now going to draw an absolute conclusion form your spherical cow analysis, say that bitcoin-wizards "agreed" and then make a pretty coloured gif animation and post it all over the forums for dramatic effect ... we know how this movie ends
<bsm1175321>
Are you guys still arguing this? I just thought it was a bit deceptive because of the word "best" when there are multiple valid answers, depending on your assumptions...
<PeterR>
This is science; we ask questions and run experiments to answer them. The outcome of an experiment is the ultimate arbtrar.
<PeterR>
bsm1175321: I clarified the thought experiment: You place an observe with a synchronized clock near each miner and observe thousands of blocks while making measurements.
<moa>
expect you are cherry-picking analysis and data to support you pre-determind outcomes ... that's called pseudo-science
<moa>
s/except/expect
<PeterR>
What data?
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<phantomcircuit>
PeterR, True or False, Larger blocks result in a super-linear increase in the cost of joining the bitcoin peer-to-peer network
<PeterR>
Apples to apples, I would say true.
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<PeterR>
If by join you mean verifying the entire blockchain.
<maaku>
I think we should all try to be professional here. If someone is asking a legitimately on-topic question relevant to the discussion at hand, and it is not inappropriately loaded or framed, I'd prefer that we engage with good intentions.
<maaku>
For example recent events have certainly given me some negative emotion towards Gavin, yet he showed up recently asking about cost metrics and I helpfully pointed him towards nickler and instagibbs.
<bsm1175321>
^^^^^ maaku
<maaku>
Turns out he just wanted to make sure segwit was using an updated metric, but if I assumed it was something XT related I'm sure things would have gone sour unnecessarily.
<bsm1175321>
hear hear
<phantomcircuit>
maaku, i agree; but his original question was clearly loaded
<coinoperated>
i was about to ask what join means, but, hmm..
<zookolaptop>
Hooray for professionalism and tolerance.
<PeterR>
phantomcircuit: by the way, I haven't gathered any data as you suspected. I am trying to figure out how certain people think about block propagation.
<phantomcircuit>
coinoperated, the purpose of the question was to demonstrate that an under specified question requiring a true/false is not useful
<eamonnw>
is that called a false dichotomy?
<phantomcircuit>
coinoperated, you'll notice that he qualified his answer by first specifying what he defined as "joining the network"
<phantomcircuit>
eamonnw, yes
<phantomcircuit>
PeterR, frankly i do not believe you; that being said
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<moa>
phantomcircuit: I don't believe him either ... he has argued in bad faith on multiple forums for too long to be trusted a priori
<phantomcircuit>
"The expectation value of the time between when a miner solves a block and when 50% of the hash rate has received and validated that block increases with the size of the block mined; unless a single entity performs transaction selection for more than 50% of the hashing power." is True (and maybe it's the selfish mining threshold and not 50%)
<PeterR>
Thanks for answering.
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<nsh>
(even this assumes, e.g. that there is no propagation-affecting mechanism being run by nodes/miners on the basis of blocksize. there's no reason a priori to believe that larger blocks will be relayed differently, but there's not much more reason to assume they won't, especially as saturation starts to affect behaviour as people try to compensate/game the resultant instability)
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<PeterR>
Alright, thanks for everyone's time. Have a good night.
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<kanzure>
"the outcome of an experiment is the ultimate arbitrar" that's not how science works
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<Taek>
I think it will end up being possible to establish "preconsensus" in adversarial modes. If someone strays too far from preconsensus, you ignore their blocks. And if full nodes commit their txns to preconsensus structures (like weak blocks), you get full nodes that can participate in the transaction selection process without needing mining hardware
<Taek>
at that point it's less preconsensus and more consensus around a whitelist of transactions
<Taek>
the whitelist is allowed to contain double spends
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<Taek>
and uncertain ordering
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<Taek>
and then the full block finalizes the whitelist in to a single, ordered, nonconflicting set of transactions
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<instagibbs>
can you give an example of non-mining pre-consensus?
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<Taek>
most of my ideas involve weak blocks. Anything else I can think of is somehow permissioned
<Taek>
i.e., NG
<instagibbs>
hashcash rules everything around you
<instagibbs>
ah yeah sure NG fits that
<Taek>
hashcash is a great way to ratelimit things without needing identity :)
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<phantomcircuit>
Taek, i've yet to see a proposal for pre-staging of transactions which credibly provides an incentive to actually use the mechanism
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<Taek>
phantomcircuit: for sufficiently small miners, increased propagation speed is incentive enough, isn't it? (granted, we don't have an ecosystem of 'sufficiently small miners', but still)
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<phantomcircuit>
Taek, the incentive must exceed the advantage for miners larger than 33%
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<Taek>
if miners refuse to acknowledge blocks that don't leverage preconsensus, then there is incentive. You have to be careful though that you don't introduce subjectivity
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<phantomcircuit>
Taek, there's no guarantee of a weak block, so you cannot use them in consensus enforcement
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<maaku>
phantomcircuit handwave, miners could preferentially not build on blocks violating the pre-consensus, weighted by how much they differ, at least getting us back to 50% security, or 33% with active withholding
<maaku>
Handwave again
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<phantomcircuit>
maaku, me thinks there's too much handwaving there :P
<Taek>
phantomcircuit: if there are no weak blocks, you could just enforce that the block size be 0
<Taek>
more realistically, you'd leverage weak blocks from the previous N strong blocks, and there'd be little chance of 0 weak blocks in total
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<ryan-c>
maaku: yes, first 200 bits of private key (are zero)
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<kanzure>
would it make sense to not reward miners for mining a merged-mined chain? e.g. zero subsidy on the merged-mined chain.
<ryan-c>
maaku: in some cases, more than that.
<phantomcircuit>
kanzure, why?
<kanzure>
phantomcircuit: trying to think of how to do a hard-fork without double minting. you know, plausibly-safe-ways to do a hard-fork or sidechain or merged mined chain that doesn't completely destroy everything.
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<phantomcircuit>
kanzure, the extension blocks thing adam3us mentioned
<phantomcircuit>
basically sidechain merged mined and enforced
<kanzure>
yep that's right, don't know what i was thinking.
<kanzure>
oh right, it's not a hard-fork.
<phantomcircuit>
kanzure, at this point i really dont see any strong argument for doing a hard fork... ever
<kanzure>
security emergencies
<bsm1175321>
phantomcircuit: The number of UTXO's that will ever fit in a 1MB block is fixed. 1MB/10min will forever limit the scalability of bitcoin. A hard fork will be necessary eventually.
<kanzure>
phantomcircuit: other thing to point out is that a hard-fork for changing, say, block size, actually upgrades the capacity of the hard-forked chain, not the original chain :-).
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<bsm1175321>
phantomcircuit: even if every tx in the 1MB block was pay-to-any and everything else hidden, the tx rate is still way too low for worldwide domination.
<kanzure>
bsm1175321: there's a number of alternatives on the horizon, such as segwit for zero-conf smart contract transactions, which allow for massive scalability of zero-conf transactions with non-zero security
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<kanzure>
bsm1175321: also, there are handwavy moon math methods to have a blockchain theoretically grow sublinearly over time instead of linearly or higher.... so i don't think your assumption is correct.
<bsm1175321>
kanzure: handwavy moon math refs?
<Taek>
security emergencies are a good reason to hardfork without warning. But then that also means that nobody is going to be sleeping for at least a week
<bsm1175321>
And thank you for being our de-facto librarian! ;-)
<kanzure>
Taek: sha256 broken would be an amazing reason to lose sleep over, it would be my privilege
<maaku>
ryan-c I would not have said what those bits are on an open channel
<kanzure>
10:06 < ryan-c`> Anyone know of a faster-than-brute-force attack on secp256k1 when the first ~200 are known and a signature is available?
<kanzure>
10:09 < ryan-c`> (replies may be directed to ryan-c)
* bsm1175321
comforts kanzure for having to explain big-o notation...
<ryan-c>
maaku: The wallets are already empty.
<bsm1175321>
kanzure: you weren't at scaling bitcoin II were you?
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<ryan-c>
maaku: If they had BTC in them I'd be more subtle.
<kanzure>
i was watching you and judging you the whole time
<bsm1175321>
bastard. You should have introduced yourself. :-P
<kanzure>
i was on the interwebs. not in person.
<bsm1175321>
Booo electronic tubes.
<bsm1175321>
So, moon math aside, old nodes must see, at a minimum, address and balance for every utxo. This implies a scaling limit. Moon math implies payment channels?
<ryan-c>
maaku: Mind if I PM you?
<maaku>
Sure
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<phantomcircuit>
bsm1175321, extension blocks as a soft fork essentially increase the size of the block without forcing current users to move to new software
<phantomcircuit>
personally i do not want to be even a little responsible for someone losing money because everybody else has moved to a new chain
<bsm1175321>
phantomcircuit: That is not a soft fork. Old nodes do not have a full utxo set.
<bsm1175321>
You have to know that the recipient has upgraded their wallet, communicating node.
<phantomcircuit>
bsm1175321, extension blocks are essentially a sidechain which is enforced in the main consensus by "upgraded" nodes
<phantomcircuit>
bsm1175321, that's true, but coordinating with the recipient on which extension blocks they support is systemically easier than literally everybody moving to a new chain
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<bsm1175321>
Oh, that mechanism. There are many ideas about extension blocks.
<bsm1175321>
I don't fully understand that... who holds the keys for the extension block UTXO? Are they publicly distributed to upgraded nodes?
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<phantomcircuit>
bsm1175321, keys?
<phantomcircuit>
bsm1175321, the extension block is merged mined at 1:1 difficulty with bitcoin
<bsm1175321>
Bailing-in to an e.g. CLTV locked txn requires a key, no?
<bsm1175321>
Otherwise the old node can't validate it.
<bsm1175321>
Or is it an anyone-can-pay situation?
<phantomcircuit>
bsm1175321, it would look like anyone-can-spend
<maaku>
bsm1175321 for the record, that's the only extension block propoaal
<phantomcircuit>
but actually can only be spent if the extension block allows
<bsm1175321>
maaku: I admit to not having studied it or understand it.
<bsm1175321>
Ok cool, will look.
<bsm1175321>
Where is the proposal?
<maaku>
There are many other misconceptions about what extension blocks are, but all actual proposals involve segregated utxo sets
<bramc>
bsm117532 classic seems to view making a hard fork as a value unto itself, absent any technical justification whatsoever
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<bsm1175321>
bramc: I think people don't understand the nuances, and want desperately to see a capacity increase. A commitment by core to an expansion block mechanism (regardless of what's in that expansion block or how it's created) would help.
<kanzure>
they have been shown many non-hard-fork capacity increases, so i would submit to you, bsm1175321, that their concern is not actually about capacity increases :)
<bsm1175321>
kanzure: This topic is far more than a non-software-dev can reasonably absorb, I would submit.
<bramc>
bsm117532 But capacity increases can have very negative consequences: Fewer full nodes, lower mining rewards
<bsm1175321>
bramc: That's better than forking non-upgraded nodes off the chain, no?
<kanzure>
bsm1175321: (indeed i would say that their concerns are actually the result of too much technical explanation, and not enough soft explanation, but this is quickly becoming off-topic for this channel)
<bsm1175321>
kanzure: Happy to go to bitcoin-dev or elsewhere, this is clearly near term.
<kanzure>
bsm1175321: how about pm?
<bsm1175321>
sure
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<Taek>
What if... instead of giving transaction fees to the miner, you threw transaction fees into the void. Then, the amount of work that needed to be done by the block was decreased proportional to the amount of coins thrown away. This financially incentivizes the miner, but decreases the total revenue available to miners. Less revenue means less room for economies-of-scale sized mining operations, which might mean greater decentralization. It will
<Taek>
definitely mean less POW on the chain though.
<smooth>
and when the subsidy runs out?
<Taek>
But, I might prefer a mining ecosystem that had 10x the miners and 1/10th the POW security.
<smooth>
oh i know, negative difficulty :)
<Taek>
when the subsidy runs out you give up :)
<smooth>
pretty much my view anyway
<Taek>
you could allow fees, and then have throwing away fees be worth some function of the number of fees thrown away vs. the total number of fees in the block, such that the optimal point means a miner is taking both transactions with fees and transactions that throw away fees.
<Taek>
A related construction would allow transactions with POW in them to reduce the amount of POW needed in the block. This means someone has to do the POW on the txn in real time, but might encourage a bunch of users to get mini-miners or something
<smooth>
why would a miner care between taking fees and lower difficulty ? seems the same to me
<Taek>
if the reward is 0 then there's no reason to elimiate work.
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<smooth>
i thought we'd already given up on that :)
<Taek>
At lower bounds, there's clearly a reason to take fees over work reduction
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<smooth>
the pow in tx is potentially interesting though. running numbers on it seems hard to have non-delegated pow on mobile though
<smooth>
considering that an entire battery charge on a phone is like 1/10 cent
<Taek>
and the people doing POW on their transactions still don't get to influence what other transactions the miner chooses to put into a block, which has become a bit of a holy grail for me
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<Taek>
I recently realized that miners are untrusted entities, and since that moment I've taken an interest in finding ways to limit their power or strongly incentive specific actions
<smooth>
miners are untrusted in so far as either there are no thin clients or the half baked fraud proof scheme actually works entirely
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<smooth>
if everybody waits a long time to accept payments, that's good enough for *individual* miners to not be trusted
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<Taek>
miners can still censor transactions
<MRL-Relay>
[smooth] collectively yes
<smooth>
assuming insufficient motivation for new mining entrants
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<Taek>
they'd do it the same way you'd do a soft-fork. If miners decide that they want a soft-fork, there's not much full nodes can do to fight back besides dump the price.
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<Taek>
especially when basically all of China is one coherent entitiy, that's not exactly comforting
<smooth>
mostly agree
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<smooth>
but there is a bit of a fallacy of composition here
<smooth>
"miners" is not an entity
<Taek>
they do have to make a collective decision, and I do find it much less likely that they'd collectively make an evil decision, even when there are only 10 of them. But if government, police, or military pressure starts to appear, that might change.
<smooth>
there also have to not be other potential entrants willing to enter
<smooth>
and there indeed may not be, but that is a requirement
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<instagibbs>
zookolaptop, congrats on the unveiling of zcash. Looking forward to hearing about the latest tech
<zookolaptop>
instagibbs: thanks!
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<kanzure>
Taek: welp, it would particularly suck to throw away "erroneous" transaction fees, into the void, e.g. no more "oops i sent you 250 BTC as a transaction fee" recovery stories.
<kanzure>
Taek: so was this transaction fees thrown away only, or the entire subsidy?
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<waxwing>
zookolaptop: the forum link at the bottom of your blog post has a dangling '.'
<zookolaptop>
waxwing: thanks!
<waxwing>
zookolaptop: has the need for special setup as in earlier designs been avoided?
<instagibbs>
I'm more interested in the finit-size accumulator
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<kanzure>
where is the zcash-dev mailing list?
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<r0ach>
the wired article basically says it's a narco money laundering applicatoin which will result in "more sex slaves being sold" or something or other
<zookolaptop>
kanzure: that's the one I was thinking of! Thanks.
<zookolaptop>
r0ach: shit. I'm glad I don't have time to read it then. ☹
<zookolaptop>
Does it mention rhino poaching?
<waxwing>
so do i understand that the paper linked here (the zerocash technical paper): http://zerocash-project.org/paper is what we should read?
<r0ach>
yes, it does actually
<zookolaptop>
HAHA
<kanzure>
your server is slow, dropped to 2 MB/sec for your massive mpc setup common reference string key thing
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<ebfull>
kanzure: those keys are not MPC, MPC will have to come in a few months after those papers are revised and the code is completed
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<zmanian_>
My mental model is that being able to trade in and out of a full fungible currency like zcash will increase the effective fungibility of bitcoin, et al. Effectively asking as a fully trust worthy coin mixer assuming reasonably liquidity.
<zmanian_>
*asking = acting as
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<fluffypony>
zmanian_: no, moving in and out currently requires trusted third-parties
<fluffypony>
so there's no more advantage for Bitcoin, at least no more than using Monero for that purpose
<fluffypony>
JoinMarket does a much better job of adding privacy to Bitcoin than Monero or ZeroCash
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<zmanian_>
fuffypony: Thinking about the differences between ledger analysis can deanonymize you vs your counter parties can deanonymize you
<MRL-Relay>
[othe] as long as the main chain does not provide you any privacy it´s questionable; and miners can still censor transactions etc
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<nwilcox>
fluffypony> zmanian_: no, moving in and out currently requires trusted third-parties
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<nwilcox>
What's the status of atomic cross chain swaps? I had the impression that mechanism works today with Bitcoin, except for potential malleability issues.
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<nwilcox>
-and some of CLTV, CSV, and/or segwit will fix the lingering issues.
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<pigeons>
nwilcox: all i know are the scripts from amiller and TierNolan. Then sergio lerner was going to do a whole project or exchange with something similar, but that seemed to go away
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<maaku>
nwilcox: atomic cross chain swaps works today, yes
<fluffypony>
I would've added "right now" to the end of that, but I thought it was implicit
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<nwilcox>
I guess even with ACCS there's a coordination problem that is only served by third parties today (eg: no third-party-free order book).
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<pigeons>
put the orders in a dht
<pigeons>
can you say dht in this channel again?
<helo>
dht
<fluffypony>
just put the orders on the blockchain!
<pigeons>
need to pull request "classic" if they've thought of switching to a dht
<fluffypony>
pigeons: just tell them to synchronise the mempool
<fluffypony>
with voting
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<pigeons>
you know that's next for real
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<nwilcox>
broadcasting orders to a dht/blockchain allows some participants in said medium to front-run orders (by reacting to them before they are generally known to the public).
<nwilcox>
-at least with the naive approach.
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<nwilcox>
I don't know how much of an issue that would be.
<adlai>
nwilcox: ACCSs are "frequent batch auctions" so to front-run effectively, you need to mine your own swaps
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<pigeons>
doesn't namecoin do some encoding or locking to keep name operations from being censored or grabbed first
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<nwilcox>
adlai: I'm not familiar with frequent batch auctions, nor exchange protocols in general. Doesn't ACCS require two committed participants who agree on a price up front? (If so, it must initialte after an order is matched, right?)
<nwilcox>
pigeons: For the namecoin case a simple commit / reveal suffices.
<pigeons>
yeah i see they just broadcast a hash first
<nwilcox>
There's not much incentive to block a reveal since you cannot insert a commitment before the targetted commitment.
<nwilcox>
By contrast, revealing an order is different, because the MITM can choose whether or not to drop that information or to place their own matching order before the general public gets to decide.
<nwilcox>
So there *is* an incentive to block or "front-run".