sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
jgarzik has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
pozitron has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jgarzik has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jgarzik has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pozitrono has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
stevenroose has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
stevenroose|BNC is now known as stevenroose
stevenroose has quit [Disconnected by services]
alpalp has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
smk has joined #bitcoin-wizards
stevenroose has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nuke_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards
smk has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
laurentmt has quit [Client Quit]
JoiIto has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
jgarzik has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
JoiIto_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jtimon has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
JoiIto_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
rustyn has quit [Read error: No route to host]
rustyn has joined #bitcoin-wizards
brg444 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
stevenroose|BNC has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pizzalvr- has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<pizzalvr->
could nodes simply reject a block as invalid if it includes a double-spend?
<dgenr8>
pizzalvr-: not quite. but there are ideas whereby they could deprecate those blocks, if the double-spend were obvious enough
Tiraspol has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Tiraspol has quit [Changing host]
Tiraspol has joined #bitcoin-wizards
brg444 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
licnep has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<pizzalvr->
dgenr8, so that code would delay the transmission of blocks X seconds if the miner were acting poorly?
laurentmt has quit [Client Quit]
voxelot has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
mountaingoat has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
magma__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
davec has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
hashtag_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
davec has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
alpalp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alpalp has quit [Changing host]
alpalp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pizzalvr- has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
pizzalvr- has joined #bitcoin-wizards
arowser has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]
Newyorkadam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
arowser has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Ylbam has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
supasonic has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
smk has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards
roconnor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
penjenayah has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
Darknes has joined #bitcoin-wizards
licnep has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jgarzik has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jgarzik has quit [Client Quit]
dEBRUYNE has quit [Quit: Leaving]
chjj has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
magma__ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
rusty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
p15 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pizzalvr- has quit [Quit: Leaving]
RedEmerald has quit [Changing host]
RedEmerald has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Dizzle has joined #bitcoin-wizards
raedah has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
wallet42 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
r0ach has joined #bitcoin-wizards
voxelot has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chjj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chjj has quit [Client Quit]
belcher has quit [Quit: Leaving]
DougieBot5000 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Newyorkadam_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Newyorkadam has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Newyorkadam_ is now known as Newyorkadam
sparetire_ has quit [Quit: sparetire_]
copumpkin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
DougieBot5000 has quit [Quit: Leaving]
smk has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
TheSeven has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
tripleslash_v has joined #bitcoin-wizards
TheSeven has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Newyorkadam has quit [Quit: Newyorkadam]
c-cex-yuriy has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
Newyorkadam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
DougieBot5000 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Dizzle has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
raedah has joined #bitcoin-wizards
oneeman has quit [Quit: Leaving]
brg444 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
Newyorkadam has quit [Quit: Newyorkadam]
tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards
binns has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Newyorkadam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtagg has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
hashtag_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
stevenroose has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
stevenroose|BNC is now known as stevenroose
hashtag has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Newyorkadam has quit [Quit: Newyorkadam]
Newyorkadam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Newyorkadam has quit [Client Quit]
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
copumpkin has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
chjj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zookolap` has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
roidster has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Ylbam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bit2017 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Tomiii has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
bit2017 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mountaingoat has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
hashtag_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
hashtag has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
hashtag has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
roidster has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [SeaMonkey 2.39/20151103191810]]
fuc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
licnep has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
MrHodl has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Alopex has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Alopex has joined #bitcoin-wizards
DougieBot5000 has quit [Quit: Leaving]
chmod755 has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
hashtagg has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
hashtag has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards
c-cex-yuriy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Tomiii has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
Alopex has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Alopex has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mkarrer has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Tomiii has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Tomiii has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Tomiii has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nivah has joined #bitcoin-wizards
supasonic has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
moa has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
bit2017 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
nivah has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
jannes has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bit2017 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ayn1k has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
dcousens has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dcousens has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
paveljanik has quit [Quit: Leaving]
ratbanebo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Tomiii has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Tomiii has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
gielbier has quit [Quit: Leaving]
Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtagg has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
dgenr8 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
hashtag_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
neilf_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
hashtag_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtagg has joined #bitcoin-wizards
neilf_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Burrito has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
dgenr8 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bramc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bramc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
cluckj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
sCOGSBY has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
arowser has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]
arowser has joined #bitcoin-wizards
voxelot has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
nickeeem has joined #bitcoin-wizards
fkhan_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
davec has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
davec has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nickeem has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jcluck has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
sparetire_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
roconnor has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
fkhan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adam3us has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
blackmarble_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
blackmarble_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jcluck has joined #bitcoin-wizards
davec has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
cluckj has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
fkhan_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
kang_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
davec has joined #bitcoin-wizards
cluckj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bramc has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
arowser has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]
arowser has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adam3us has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
jaekwon_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pozitron has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
jaekwon has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
adam3us has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ratbanebo has quit []
GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tjader has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
c-cex-yuriy has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
adam3us has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
jcorgan is now known as jcorgan|away
melvster has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
adam3us has joined #bitcoin-wizards
melvster has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mkarrer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Tenhi_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
mkarrer has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
damethos has joined #bitcoin-wizards
midnightmagic has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
midnightmagic has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GAit1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GAit has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
GGuyZ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adam3us has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
fuc has quit []
cluckj has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
GAit1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
cluckj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bit2017 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
p15 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
fkhan_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
c0rw1n_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MrHodl has joined #bitcoin-wizards
c0rw1n has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
c0rw1n_ is now known as c0rw1n
fkhan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
GGuyZ has quit [Quit: GGuyZ]
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
c-cex-yuriy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adam3us has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GGuyZ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adam3us has quit [Client Quit]
warptangent has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
damethos has quit [Quit: Bye]
Giszmo has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
warptangent has joined #bitcoin-wizards
arowser has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
arowser has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bliljerk101 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
supasonic has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GAit has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
damethos has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Tenhi_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<r0ach>
Luke-Jr: do you think the block size problems you speak of are actually network propagation problems when someone can easily make the argument that they're in essence all just block withholding attack problems inherent to PoW
GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jaromil has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<kanzure>
bandwidth asymmetry problems would exist independent of whether it was using Proof-of-Work or proof-of-some-other-stuff.
<r0ach>
I just believe it all falls under the category of block withholding attacks since security is designed for worst case scenario and that condition can be initiated by anyone regardless of how fast or slow their bandwidth is
dcousens has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
smk has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<aj>
r0ach: isn't it backwards? "network propogation" usually looks at how it harms the person whose block is delayed (it gets orphaned/dies childless), while block withholding looks at how it benefits the originator of the delayed block (it leads to others' blocks being orphaned/dying childless)
dEBRUYNE has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
laurentmt has quit [Quit: laurentmt]
<kanzure>
aj: and "network propagation" also means propagation of any data at all, not just new/recent blocks.
brianhoffman has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
pozitrono has joined #bitcoin-wizards
brianhoffman has joined #bitcoin-wizards
c0rw1n is now known as c0rw|away
DougieBot5000 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
deego has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
brianhoffman has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
polyclef has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tripleslash_d has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tripleslash_v has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards
justanotheruser has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
psztorc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
laurentmt has quit [Client Quit]
<psztorc>
It seems the blocksize limit will soon increase to 2 MB, after all.
GGuyZ has quit [Quit: GGuyZ]
PeterR has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<dEBRUYNE>
psztorc: link?
pozitrono has quit [K-Lined]
<PeterR>
psztorc: yes, I suspect miners will increase their generation limits (up to 2 MB) soon.
<nsh>
> the blocksize limit will soon increase to 2 MB
<nsh>
> We are hard forking bitcoin to a 2 MB blocksize limit. Please join us.
<nsh>
not the same thing.
<psztorc>
40% of hashing power already committed, as well as the larger exchanges.
<nsh>
also this is far past the point of being unproductive and tedious by now
<psztorc>
I have it on good authority that Chinese miners will agree to join the 40%, putting the total well over 50%.
<nsh>
unless you have any theoretical reflections, i'd consider it off-topic. maybe #bitcoin :)
<nsh>
i have it on excellent authority that i don't care :)
<PeterR>
Psztorc: I can confirm. Based on my calls and talks, the Chinese are onboard with 2 MB.
<r0ach>
China will fall behind the Bobby Lee tweet he already sent out most likely. The east is all about falling in line and who else is bigger in China?
<nsh>
please take it somewhere else
<psztorc>
My mistake (?). It seemed on topic to me, I'm happy to discontinue.
* nsh
smiles
GAit has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
lecusemble has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
lecusemble has joined #bitcoin-wizards
melvster has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
smk has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
Dizzle has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<kanzure>
speaking of the /topic, why are we mentioning bitcoin.ninja twice?
atgreen has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
voxelot has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<gwillen>
kanzure: because we like bitcoin and we like ninjas?
<bsm117532>
segwit, blocksize, and lightning are in the discussion queue.
<nsh>
streamed?
<bsm117532>
nsh: no, not streamed.
<nsh>
ah, nm
raedah has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tripleslash_d has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rusty1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rusty has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
Dizzle has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
davec has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
davec has joined #bitcoin-wizards
damethos has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<coinoperated>
bsm117532 too bad won't be in NYC tonight, would love to make it. DC needs such a meetup.
Tomiii has quit [Read error: Connection timed out]
GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zookolaptop has joined #bitcoin-wizards
brg444 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
stevenroose__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
stevenroose has quit [Disconnected by services]
stevenroose has joined #bitcoin-wizards
justanotheruser has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
stevenroose has quit [Disconnected by services]
stevenroose__ is now known as stevenroose
paveljanik has joined #bitcoin-wizards
psztorc has quit [Quit: Page closed]
Erik_dc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pozitrono has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<Luke-Jr>
r0ach: block withholding attacks do not harm Bitcoin..
pozitrono has quit [Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))]
<r0ach>
well, I disagree on the effect of that not harming the economic incentives of Bitcoin, but better question:
<r0ach>
I know you're a programmer and not a military strategist, but do you believe PoW mining even passes elementary game theory? Seeing as how the real end game game theory of mining is to accumulate greater than 50% hash rate placed in multiple rathole pools (sybil attack),
<r0ach>
because if you don't do it, someone else can, so the obvious game theory scenario is to accomplish the attack yourself but not execute it in order to protect your own investment
<r0ach>
I'll look at it, it's just hard to not make the conection that you're dealing with a system of security through obscurity when pool mining itself is a reputation based system already. If incentives direct me towards accumulating greater than 50% hash in order to protect my investment against others initiating the attack against me, while placing the hash in multiple pools (sybil) as
<r0ach>
to not "offend" anyone,
<r0ach>
since nobody can actually verify who the pool owners are, it's virtually the same thing as me owning greater than 50% out in the open since nobody can verify I do or don't.
<r0ach>
hence the "security through obscurity" comment
<r0ach>
making the only way I can rationalize holding BTC is telling myself it's a system of fault recovery after the fact of double spends rather than fault tolerance
bit2017 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jannes has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
<gavinandresen>
r0ach: okey dokey. the economic argument that it is irrational to own more than 30% (or wherever the max-profit is, based on costs given in that pdf) doesn't care if it is solo mining, using one pool, or hiding hashpower among multiple pools.
roman__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<gavinandresen>
... if you want to get into economically irrational 51% attacks, then also "okey dokey"
dEBRUYNE has quit [Quit: Leaving]
laurentmt has quit [Quit: laurentmt]
GGuyZ has quit [Quit: GGuyZ]
<zookolaptop>
Related: I've been wondering approximately how much of mining investment is pure hardware costs.
<zookolaptop>
The reason is I'm planning to use a memory-oriented PoW in Zcash.
brianhoffman has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<zookolaptop>
Inasmuch as that succeeds at making commodity hardware (RAM) efficient for mining, that's good because it lowers barriers to entry for mining,
<zookolaptop>
but it's bad because it lowers barriers to exit for mining,
<zookolaptop>
since you can repurpose or resale your RAM if you stop mining.
<zookolaptop>
And I'm wondering how *big* of a danger that represents.
<kanzure>
opportunity cost modeling should show this ya?
<zookolaptop>
I.e. if for some reason Bitcoin mining ASICs were resaleable for near their original costs, how much would that reduce the sunk costs of today's Bitcoin miners.
atgreen has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<zookolaptop>
kanzure: my question is empirical rather than theoretical.
<zookolaptop>
It is: for today's Bitcoin miners, how much of their capital investment is independent of the PoW.
stevenroose|BNC has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<midnightmagic>
zookolaptop: Onramping a mining effort where the mining can be resold for other purposes was one of the primary draws for early bitcoin mining.
Dizzle has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<midnightmagic>
Since it essentially eliminated most of the risk of hardware capital outlay.
* kanzure
looks at logs
<kanzure>
18:41 < gmaxwell> I did some calculations and concluded that if the energy cost of the memory hard function is zero then at some level of attack amortization the memory hard function will lose against an energy hard function. But thats a stupid argument, since the energy costs are not zero.
brianhoffman has quit []
<r0ach>
Mining is basically just a futures contract where you're required to lock collateral with time opportunity cost. I don't believe it's the re-sale of the goods that's most relevant in nature, just the time opportunity cost.
<zookolaptop>
midnightmagic: yep.
<zookolaptop>
midnightmagic: that's an excellent point.
<zookolaptop>
r0ach: well, it was your questioning that reminded me about this, because the fact that the current Bitcoin miners have large sunk costs in Bitcoin-specific ASICs
<zookolaptop>
makes them less likely to risk damaging Bitcoin's value in order to make a profit.
<zookolaptop>
For example Joseph Bonneau's fantastic "Why Buy When You Can Rent?" paper, which argues pretty effectively that the cost of an attack that rolls Bitcoin back 6 blocks should approach the mining reward from those 6 blocks, i.e. 150ⓑ today.
<zookolaptop>
The best reason I can come up with why that attack isn't deployed in practice is that the miners don't want to rent out their hashpower to randos because that might crash Bitcoin.
<zookolaptop>
So, yeah, the question of whether that same calculus would be in effect if the hardware had resale value is on my mind.
Dizzle has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
<bsm117532>
zookolaptop: I'm of the opinion that memory-hard is the wrong way to go because of what I call the "external majority" -- there's more than 51% of your mining power (memory) in existence that is NOT currently being used for mining, and it can be reallocated.
<bsm117532>
You do actually want your mining hardware to have no other use.
<zookolaptop>
Ah yes. You told me this in person at SB/HK and I did look at your blog post after.
<r0ach>
My view of mining is, it's required for Austrian origin of money schools of thought, but afterwards, the outside entropy is just an attack vector where you would do better in trying to eliminate it by replicating the time opportunity cost/futures contract essence of mining with say
melvster has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
<zookolaptop>
r0ach: ah! I think what you want is PoW bootstrap shifting to PoS!
<r0ach>
1001 deterministic block producters, and forcing people to bid and lock collateral for those positions.
<zookolaptop>
Which seems to be what a lot of people are trying nowadays, including Ethereum.
<bsm117532>
zookolaptop: javascript injection will be used to mine your coin with a botnet.
<r0ach>
no, vitalik uses a flat rate
<r0ach>
which is prone to sybil
<zookolaptop>
bsm117532: similar to how botnets mined Bitcon at one phase.
<r0ach>
or he will set the flat rate too high to try and avoid sybil, and then coins lost over time or mass distribution will eventually make the system unworkable
<bsm117532>
Exactly. But with a memory-hard function, that vulnerability will never go away.
<instagibbs>
bsm117532, as long as I get to choose block inclusion policy while the virus mines ;)
Burrito has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<bsm117532>
instagibbs has an AS400 in his basement. He's happy to keep your ledger for you on it. ;-)
<brg444>
zookolaptop bsm117532 I believe psztorc has some pretty good insight about this as well on his blog
<bsm117532>
brg444: Yes I linked them in a comment.
<r0ach>
zookolaptop: in regards to collateral systems, you have two options, finite number of block producers and a bid system to become one, or floating number of block producers and a flate rate. Not sure why Ethereum chooses the second option since the first option seems far superior.
Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GGuyZ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GGuyZ has quit [Client Quit]
<instagibbs>
how do you avoid bidding censorship
<zookolaptop>
r0ach: Hm.
<instagibbs>
flat rate means less incentive to censor, I think? or less opportunity maybe. Maybe not.
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
fkhan_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
laurentmt has quit [Client Quit]
Tiraspol has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
koshii has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<rasengan>
fyi satoshi@vistomail is not satoshi for those of you who may have wondered. satoshi always knew the direction things were headed - even asking us to make a gentleman's agreement not to use gpu mining at the beginning. he also knew in 20 years there would be massive transactions or 0.
koshii has joined #bitcoin-wizards
fkhan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<Taek>
rasengan: we don't really consider satoshi discussion to be on-topic. Words should be evaluated by their merit, not by the mouth that birthed them
<rasengan>
Agreed.
PaulCapestany has quit [Quit: .]
PaulCapestany has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jannes has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nabu has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
melvster has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bramc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
PaulCapestany has quit [Quit: .]
PaulCapestany has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Burrito has quit [Quit: Leaving]
Burrito has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GAit has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<r0ach>
He contradicted himself by making that statement anyway. Bitcoin is backed by greed and beef jerky, so by asking people to form a gentleman's agreement, he's asking to throw away the incentives for which the network is secured.
Dizzle has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<bsm117532>
If incentives are misaligned with correct operation of the network (e.g. selfish mining), then we need to change the incentives.
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<bramc>
Selfish mining is hard to fix at the protocol level without causing worse problems.
<bsm117532>
bramc: This is what leads me down the braids path...
laurentmt has quit [Client Quit]
<bramc>
bsm117532 I understand the general sentiment behind braids but as I said before it's a very all or nothing proposition and I'd have to have a much deeper understanding of it myself and hear other people say they're comfortable with it before feeling comfortable with it.
GAit has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
<bramc>
It's one of those big goal ideas, like my proof of space stuff or peter todd's treechains
<bsm117532>
Fully agree.
<e0>
Has anyone done an analysis on all the things in Bitcoin that break due to length extension multicollisions if someone publishes a single SHA256 collision?
<kang_>
bsm117532: Have you studied ethereum, where all orphans are paid nevertheless? Certainly looks like a braid..
voxelot has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
tripleslash_v has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<bsm117532>
kang_: Yes, but refs would be appreciated if you think it looks like a braid. AFAIK they're just using GHOST, which I don't like because it actually makes some double-spend attacks easier.
<kang_>
bsm117532: I feel it is a very bad idea, i must add.
tripleslash_v has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<bsm117532>
Braids will have an effective "block time" that is much faster than 1s. Confirmation times are related to how long it takes to propagate to the entire network, and I'd guess it will be in the range 10-30s.
eudoxia has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<bramc>
kang_, Basically all the simplified variants of braids make the problems they're supposed to solve worse. There's a coherent theory behind it which has to be accepted en masse or not at all.
<kang_>
bsm117532: Firstly, are braids technically same as the idea in this blogpost? Because they look same..
<bsm117532>
kang_: They are very, very different.
<bsm117532>
kang_: Ethereum is just using a variant on GHOST, which allows stale/orphan blocks to receive some reward. They still have a blockchain just like bitcoin. Braids expand the structure so blocks have multiple parents, resulting in a DAG. Ethereum's structure is a tree (and so is Bitcoins if you include orphans).
<bsm117532>
Ethereum blocks still have only one parent.
<kang_>
bsm117532: I want to read more. Also have you studied IOTA, an altcoin?
<bsm117532>
That's the fundamental difference, but opens a can of worms in complexity.
<bsm117532>
Yes. I don't think the Iota paper is very good.
<bsm117532>
Fundamentally I think braids are the "right way" to have any kind of distributed database... So yeah, you can use it for IoT. ;-)
<kang_>
bsm117532: ok, but are braids same as the idea in IOTA? Can you give me a link to read more about braids please?
<bsm117532>
Corresponding paper will be out within a week...
<kang_>
bsm117532: Because again, IOTA's blockbraid is a DAG and looks like it
<bsm117532>
kang_: It is.
eudoxia has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<bsm117532>
By defining "braid" I add the rule that a block can't name one of its ancestors of another parent as a direct parent. (e.g. grandpa is my parent) Let's define that as "incest". So a Braid is a restriction on a DAG.
<bsm117532>
Iota called their DAG a "tangle", and it contains these incest links, which I think don't serve any purpose an can be removed.
<bsm117532>
(Graphically this results in triangles -- a Braid has no triangles)
arowser has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]
arowser has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GGuyZ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<instagibbs>
you also forbid double-spends, right?
<instagibbs>
conflicting history, that is
<bsm117532>
instagibbs: Of course. Double-spends define forks just as they do in bitcoin, and miners have to evaluate which one has the most work.
<bsm117532>
This is unlike GHOST which keeps the losing side of a double-spend around, and awards some of the block reward to the losing miner.
<bsm117532>
So mine is somewhat closer "in spirit" to bitcoin...
<bramc>
I just sent some mail about the advantages of adding proofs of time to proofs of space, so I'll include here, sorry about the size:
<bramc>
(1) What a miner can do is changed form 'Mine a history of size X' to 'Extend a blockchain with the extension of size X at a rate of one second of blockchain for one second of time spent'. This fixes re-mining since genesis attacks, because the attacker won't catch up with the public blockchain.
<bramc>
(2) Blocks are all the same value. A block isn't better or worse, it's simply a valid block, with values only changing when the work difficulty is recalculated.
<bramc>
(3) Grinding attacks have a substantial cost, of one cpu having to be devoted to the amount of time covered for every branch explored
<bramc>
My thinking about grinding attacks on proof of space systems assumes they have those properties
<kang_>
bramc: Since it was used in the same line as proof-of-time, I thought proof of space meant proof of real world space (akin to proof-of-time). It should be called proof-of-diskspace, because proof-of-time deals with real world time and is not the same as proof-of-computationTime
<bramc>
Not following you. They call it 'proof of space' because the space could be memory or tape or any storage medium not necessarily disk.
justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<kanzure>
bramc: i do not see your email in the bitcoin-dev moderation queue.
<bsm117532>
Forgive me, I'm about to spam a multi-line idea in the middle of your conversation.
<bsm117532>
I just realized something pretty interesting: Define a sibling as a bead parallel to mine in a braid (analogous to a bitcoin orphan). You have to split fees among siblings. I can also define siblings as all beads that are descendants of my parents and ancestors of my children. With this definition I can expand outward: Let the previous sentence be called "rank (1,1) siblings".
<bramc>
A proof of time is a proof of sequential work, it has to have a work reset as well.
<bsm117532>
Let "rank (2,2) siblings" be the descendants of my grandparents, and ancestors of my children's-children, excluding my own ancestors and descendants. The two numbers of the rank (m,n) specify how far up the ancestor and descendant direction to go, then follow their descendant and ancestor links, respectively, to find siblings in the graph, always excluding your own ancestors and descendants.
<bsm117532>
Now: this gives us a way to recognize miners that are doing something funny. A miner could attempt to steal fees from other beads/blocks, by becoming their sibling. In so doing you would find rank (m,n) siblings with m>n, if other miners quickly name your block/bead as a parent, but you're naming older blocks as parents.
<bsm117532>
A block withholding attack is one where the miner mines a block/bead, but doesn't publish it. This will result in siblings with n>m.
<bsm117532>
Thus we can use the existence of siblings with m != n to put a dis-incentivize directly in the incentive formula.
<bramc>
kanzure, This is in a private thread. Not quite ready for general consumption.
<bsm117532>
</done>
adam3us has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adam3us has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
adam3us has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<bsm117532>
"cohort" as defined in my talk is the set of all such siblings.
<kang_>
bramc: Proof of time deals with real time (hh:mm). Proof of space might be expected to prove real space cordinates (x,y,z) as opposed to proof of storage
<bramc>
kang_, Yeah it's proof of storage really
<bramc>
although that other thing would be better called proof of location
<bramc>
Sadly current infrastructure can't do proof of location with granularity better than which planet.
GAit has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
voxelot has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<bramc>
And even that's dicey
bliljerk101 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<bsm117532>
bramc: You could use radio pings on the surface of the earth instead. Like a cryptographic Loran-C...
<bramc>
bsm117532 There isn't a blockchain with sufficiently low granularity and location information to support that right now. Aside from the hardware not being there.
Dizzle has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<arubi>
two hundred years ago, we had to use a candle if we wanted to read a map in the darkness. today we're thiking about navigation in space using pulsars..
<arubi>
standard candles seems appropriate
Dizzle has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<brg444>
^ #resistcapitalism
dEBRUYNE has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
<arubi>
sign up for #CapResistt - your one quick stop for #Capitalism #Resistance!
tjader has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<brg444>
you know that was an actual thing on twitter a couple days ago heh :P
<arubi>
I don't, can't say I'm too surprised :) I hope they sold che guevara t-shirts :P
<kang_>
arubi: Whats more mind bogling is that we already etched the navigation diagram on the outsides of our spaceships, in case ET some day find them.
<r0ach>
brg444: Contrary to what Helicopter Todd said about subjectivity of the word "evil" in finance, I think if you define slavery as evil, then most monetary instruments that defer the need to barter might fit that category.
<r0ach>
One man's inflation by central bank is another man's centrally administered slavery system. Another man's increased purchasing power by trying to corner the market on a finite commodity used as currency is a decentralized slavery system.
<brg444>
r0ach what's that got to do with -wizards and why are you pinging me?
<r0ach>
so everyone can find something to protest about
<r0ach>
was responding to your off topic post...
c-cex-yuriy has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
adam3us has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
dcousens has joined #bitcoin-wizards
voxelot has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
dcousens has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
adlai1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bendavenport has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Guyver2 has quit [Quit: :)]
voxelot has joined #bitcoin-wizards
voxelot has quit [Changing host]
voxelot has joined #bitcoin-wizards
atgreen has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GAit has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jtimon has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
bliljerk101 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
bliljerk101 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Dizzle has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
kang_ has quit [Quit: Page closed]
GGuyZ has quit [Quit: GGuyZ]
GAit has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
rusty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Erik_dc has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
roman__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]