sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<gmaxwell>
amiller_: I have to insist now that you reign in peter_r's plagerism.
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<coinoperated>
gmaxwell: joined channel just now, what plagiarism has Peter_R committed?
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<petertodd>
gmaxwell: have you published that correspondence?
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<gmaxwell>
petertodd: Peter_R himself published most of it, http://pastebin.com/jFgkk8M3 more of it was also described in this channel with him in the room.
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<petertodd>
gmaxwell: mind editing that post to link directly to that correspondence? want something nicely self-contained to send to others
<gmaxwell>
petertodd: I did, I'll make the link more clear.
<petertodd>
gmaxwell: thanks
<petertodd>
gmaxwell: I delibrately didn't look too closely, precisely to make sure this case is easy to understand :)
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<petertodd>
*deliberately
<gmaxwell>
petertodd: I should probably also add a link to the log discussing this in here.
<petertodd>
gmaxwell: good idea
<gmaxwell>
Though more distant forms of these ideas have been described for a long time (including by you)
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<petertodd>
yeah, and IIRC, I pointed out the potential incentive compatibility problem that you're giving other miners info on what's valid
<gmaxwell>
petertodd: yea, I'm actually unconvinced that it has an incentives problem; but I think it needs to be analyized carefully for strategic behavior.
<gmaxwell>
I just don't know.
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<gmaxwell>
I think it might be fair to say that it's not worth doing an incentives analysis without it fully implemented, as fine design decisions might matter.
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<petertodd>
gmaxwell: with my proof-of-prior-block proposal the problem probably goes away, at least in practice
<petertodd>
also, it's the type of thing where we can't prevent people from doing it
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<gmaxwell>
Yes, so even if it vulnerable to strategic behavior it may be best to normalize it rather than leave it so that only some have access to it.
<deego>
gmaxwell: following the bitcointalk thread. That's the tragedy, isn't it? The cheater can continue to say outrageous things and continue to pretend he's not been proven wrong; he can even continue to "deny, then appropriate." But, to a lay person, it just looks like two "equal" mathematicians quibbling over something deeply technical. The tragedy of being involved in anything that involves other people :(
<petertodd>
gmaxwell: yup, the SPV mining thing has a big problem there, as no-one else has the software
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<gmaxwell>
deego: I really wouldn't care that much except elsewhere he and others attack my crediblity while trying to make a political push to make radical changes to the bitcoin system.
<gmaxwell>
when the preprint of his work went out I immediately contacted andrew miller privately with the hope that it would be handled informally, with Peter R responding that I was "cited" there, ... I see it has not been handled.
<deego>
:|
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<gmaxwell>
I think it's a real shame too, there is a tremendous amount of contribution that can be made in explaining, formalizing, and analizing specific approaches; which doesn't require being disingenious about the origins of ideas. Unfortunately, it seems Peter R's motivations are primarily political, trying to push a large block reparameterization into the bitcoin system without regard for intellectual
<gmaxwell>
honesty-- and when doing so demands that he dismiss me as some kind of coding monkey, apparently he'll do so.
<gmaxwell>
I was thinking perhaps my correspondance with PeterR was just too opaque-- communication is a difficut art-- but several people in that thread read the correspondance I had with PeterR and understood the idea just fine.
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<deego>
glad
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<kanzure>
gmaxwell: i think that people don't understand the pastebin, they need their attention directed to specific sections, unfortunately. and additional elaboration/repetition is often helpful when communicating.
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<petertodd>
kanzure: +1
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<petertodd>
kanzure: a writeup with a summary of the situation would help; why I wrote my opt-in rbf article the way I did: https://petertodd.org/2016/are-wallets-ready-for-rbf (and even it needs improvement)
<deego>
(I learned that sad truth a long time ago in my own lifge. Most everyone pretends; everyone wants their fame; and will say anything for it. Never mind what they will do when there's actual control of a money-system at stake! The PHBs (or the general public) is never wiser and is easily fooled.) I hope in the case of bitcoin, though, that "smart money" sees what's actually smart.
<gmaxwell>
I stand on the shoulders of giants (often petertodd's it seems!); hell I would have been not angry if the paper -- unable to bring itself to mention me-- had attributed the knoweldge to 'folklore'.
<gmaxwell>
(several of my other inventions-- like the ZKCP-- have been cited as folklore in recent academic works)
<kanzure>
i thought your other concern was the paper rested on the usual false assumptions of the author
<kanzure>
btw your bitcointalk post leaves out peter rizun's current signature ("The fall of Blockstream Core draws near.") it's literally his signature on his posts.
<gmaxwell>
kanzure: yes, this paper is also in error, in that it breaks the pre-consensus design in such a way as to try to retaining the size==orphaning.
<deego>
gmaxwell: sad to see that. (the folklore "attribution")
<kanzure>
no he says that attribution was missing
<deego>
yeah
<kanzure>
huh?
<gmaxwell>
deego: Unlike academics attribution is not the primary currency I work with, at least. It matters somewhat but mostly for ego; except in cases where my reputation is under attack.
<gmaxwell>
kanzure: I said in other things my work has been attributed to folklore.
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<TD-Linux>
the most upsetting part of that pastebin is the lack of RFC2822 compliance
<petertodd>
TD-Linux: lol
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<TD-Linux>
in fact it bothered me so much that I at least fixed the quoting (though not line length) http://pastebin.com/gPKm0QcD
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<kanzure>
TD-Linux: part of the value of the other link is that it was originally created by rizun
<TD-Linux>
kanzure, yes, I saw it when it was first posted, but as far as the actual review of the paper goes that part isn't relevant
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* andy-logbot
is logging
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<JackH>
wow digital assets group is using sidechains for their ledger
<JackH>
first time I heard of anyone using sidechains and not the usual ethereum/eris/wediditourselves protocol
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<nsh>
JackH, neat
<JackH>
yes really is, finally some more movement and maybe some cool alternative features based on the original satoshi code
<nsh>
(although sidechains-alpha is probably not to be used for any purpose requiring strong doublespend security)
<nsh>
(unless experimental/testing)
<nsh>
it's pegged to testnet still iirc which can be trivially rewritten by several people in china if they got bored enough
<JackH>
I agre, but from a experimental point of view it is great, as we get more eyes on the Bitcoin code
<nsh>
(like bitcoin, except they don't have millions tied up in testnet fidelity)
* nsh
nods
<JackH>
what I see as a really big advantage because of this, is that someone comes up with something that can later be merged into core
<JackH>
right now its what? the same 50-100 people that have build all code
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<erasmospunk>
Question: was there a discussion to commit a UTXO diff for every block? So instead of committing the full UTXO set per block (that is IO heavy), we commit the removed and added UTXOs of this block.
<erasmospunk>
it is much cheaper to calculate: take all the tx inputs and remove them from the UTXO set, and add the tx outputs
<JackH>
doesnt segwit deal with some of these problems?
<erasmospunk>
JackH: if I am not mistaken it only commits to the witnesses
<nsh>
UTXO diffs/deltas have been proposed/discussed before
<JackH>
there is no shortage of improvement proposals
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<JackH>
hence why it is probably a good thing that more people outside these channels start using the protocol and test different implementations
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<bsm1175321>
erasmospunk: bramc has been working on a "merkle set" data structure which I believe is intended for UTXO set commitments and fraud proofs, using proof of set inclusion or absence.
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<erasmospunk>
bsm1175321: the full set or diffs?
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<bsm1175321>
I don't know whether it can handle diffs. Check the logs he posted a github in the last day or two with some prototype python code.
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* bsm1175321
is very sad to see the arguments between Peter_R and gmaxwell. I am excited to see more peer review in this space. Systematic attribution (via paper citation) can solve some of this, I think. Reddit, IRC, blogs, etc are noisy cesspools and terrible places to place original ideas. That's no justification for dishonesty though.
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<bsm1175321>
See I just have ideas that no one wants to touch with a 10 foot pole, and I'm safe. ;-)
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<Taek>
it would help if people who didn't know much about protocol design didn't have such strong opinions about how the protocol should be constructed
<Taek>
people spend all their time talking about block size increases when all they really care about is scalability
<Taek>
this is probably not the right channel for this... but I think a huge part of the core problem is the fundamental ideology of the developer majority is different from that of the masses
<Taek>
the developers are prioritizing decentralization above everything else, but the masses are prioritizing scalability and features
<Taek>
Ethereum prioritizes both scalability and featureset, I've been telling people with that ideology to strongly consider ethereum
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<instagibbs>
true, now that Eth has gone down the bonded validator path it's much more like what many people would seem to want.
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<nsh>
it's all grist to the mill
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<bsm117532>
Taek: Ethereum will have the same blocksize as bitcoin.
<bsm117532>
Their bonded validator path will be badly broken and destroy the system if they insist on it...
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<bsm117532>
*same blocksize *problem* as bitcoin.
<bsm117532>
The load on individual nodes is proportional to the transaction volume/utxo set size -- they haven't solved that problem.
<instagibbs>
bsm117532, not saying it's a good idea, but it's very similar logic. "full nodes that aren't me will keep people honest"
<Taek>
yeah, but Ethereum has made the choice to give miners control over t he max block size. All the reasons we believe that's a bad idea are being properly tested in Ethereum, people who don't believe the dialog can test that theory in a system that's not got my money in it
<bsm117532>
instagibbs: zero knowledge proofs will keep people honest. But that's a ways out.
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<bsm117532>
I'd like to meet psztorc, he and I seem to agree on a great many things...
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<Taek>
he was in Montreal, and he'll probably be at the MIT bitcoin expo
<Taek>
MIT Bitcoin expo is a conference that focuses on academics and cool stuff, and is not necessarily Bitcoin related, but is all cryptocurrency related
<Taek>
this year the speaker selection has been more strict than last year, though last year was ultimately a pretty good conference
<maaku>
Taek: where's the list of spekaers?
<Taek>
I'm not sure if the list is published yet, I will contact the organizers. I believe all the speakers and backup-speakers have been chosen, but not everyone has confirmed yet
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<maaku>
Taek: it's already kinda last-minute to arrange travel...
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<Taek>
I believe most of the speakers have been contacted at this point
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<nsh>
telepresence robots for everywizard!
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<maaku>
Task I mean for attendees
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<amiller_>
gmaxwell, i've forwarded on all of your concerns about Peter R to the other managing editor, Chris Wilmer, who is in the best position to deal with them
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<Tasoshi>
peer-review is not about the ultimate aim of truth, but about incremental improvements which advance towards a truth
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<Tasoshi>
whether Peter_r or gmaxwell is correct is not the point, not more than the discussion itself anyway, which by incremental steps leads to a better understanding of issues.
<Tasoshi>
No one can say for certain what is absolutely true. Every idea has two sides.
<Taek>
Tasoshi: the issue is less about who is right or what idea should prevail, and more about academic dishonesty and unprofessional behavior
<Tasoshi>
So I find it troubling when gmaxwell takes the attitude of I am right and all else are wrong, instead of the academic attitude of debating the matters and in so doing reaching a greater understanding for the entire humanity. In academia, the way such debates are carried forward is by a counter-paper. If we look for example at all great ideas, they all had two people ferociously arguing against each other. To try and shut down or silence
<Tasoshi>
or dehumanise a party is in no way in the spirit of seaking truth.
<Tasoshi>
Taek, those are just unsubstentiated accusations. There is no judge in science. No one can say what is utterly not true, not by a simple statement anyway. Truth is reached by discussing in an academic form, not by dehumanising or childish accusations of dishonesty.
<Tasoshi>
I am sure edison had a lot of ugly things to say about tesla, or jobs about gates, etc
<Taek>
Tasoshi: have you read the conversations? I have a hard time believing you'd stand by your statements if you have read the exchanges and discussion.
<pigeons>
Tasoshi: please go back and look t the actual actions taken and the actual concerns
<amiller_>
apropo of nothing, i found a bunch of neat (well, depends on your taste) flowcharts about how to handle plagiarism allegations.... although they all seem to kick in once a paper's already published http://publicationethics.org/resources/flowcharts
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<Tasoshi>
You are missing my point. If gmaxwell wishes to engage in an academic discussion he should write an academic paper, rather than try and silence.
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<Tasoshi>
If it is the case that peter_r, an academic, with a phd from my undrstanding, is engaging in dishonest behaviour, then a counterpaper should be so written to explain his factual incorrections
<Tasoshi>
but to sit on irc and dehumanise and call names etc is childish, not academic behaviour, nor a behaviour which seeks truth
<Tasoshi>
it further creates a stiflinf environment in bitcoin as all would wish to not in any way contribute when a judge, mr gmaxwell, suddenly can claim to be the arbiter of truth
<Tasoshi>
these are very basic principles that have been derived from enlightenment
<Taek>
>
<pigeons>
again i suggest you review the situation. you have a misunderstanding
<Taek>
"these are very basic principles that have been derived from enlightenment" -> that's quite the plattitude
<Taek>
*platitude
<Tasoshi>
Taek, truth is sought not by dehumanising
<Tasoshi>
but by research
<Tasoshi>
if gmaxwell wishes to present his own research to rebute that of Peter Rizun then he is welcomed to do so
<Tasoshi>
but to dehumanise is not science
<Tasoshi>
to claim one has absolute truth is not science either
<Tasoshi>
and to try and silence an academic is a moral crime in my view
<bsm117532>
Tasoshi: I don't think the academic high-horse is helpful. I do think people should publish their ideas in a more formal manner than a reddit/bitcointalk thread.
<JackH>
what is their argument about anyway?
<JackH>
rizun/maxwell
<bsm117532>
scroll back...
<JackH>
above when I wrote last as well?
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<Tasoshi>
it doesn't matter, basic principles still apply
<bsm117532>
This morning gmaxwell explained it, there's a post on reddit.
<Tasoshi>
if gmaxwell wishes to rebute an academic paper he should do so with an academic paper
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<Tasoshi>
not by in effect trying to exile knowledge
<kanzure>
Tasoshi: it is wrong to say that good arguments can only be published in papers, that's false.
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<kanzure>
the barrier for peer review is **not** "all peer review must be submitted in the form of a pdf file"
<JackH>
kanzure, ? that PDF is the argument?
<instagibbs>
do people have to publish an academic paper for lack of citation/plagarism?
<bsm117532>
kanzure: It is true however that papers establish a formal chain of provenance of ideas that is useful.
<kanzure>
bsm117532: nah, that's false too.
<Tasoshi>
kanzure, science has a process for a reason. That process came from enlightenment. If we all recall, prior to the enlightenment we had priests declaring what is true and what is not.
<kanzure>
anyone can make a pdf.
<instagibbs>
bsm117532, he was personally involved in the email chain where the idea was discussed.
<bsm117532>
kanzure: *peer*reviewed*. Peer review generally helps track down citations...
<Tasoshi>
Gmaxwell is acting no different than a priest by trying to excile a very smart academic
<kanzure>
Tasoshi: you are basically claiming that his peer review is invalid because he didn't publish a pdf. you're not making sense. :)
<bsm117532>
pdf is not peer review.
<Tasoshi>
take the ideas to the arena and battle them out, out of it truth comes, but to declare arbitrarily you are right or wrong, this is middle ages behaviour
<kanzure>
that's not how peer review works, Tasoshi
<pigeons>
ok this seems intentional and not misunderstanding
<instagibbs>
^
<Tasoshi>
seems
<instagibbs>
Tasoshi, please go somewhere else
<Tasoshi>
many things seem many things
<bsm117532>
This seems to be departing substantially from !topic
<kanzure>
we have explained why you are wrong, your response is something about religion, get lost.
<bsm117532>
!!topic
<gribble>
Error: "!topic" is not a valid command.
<bsm117532>
!topic
<gribble>
This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
<Tasoshi>
I am sure the pope said Galileo seemed intentional in his declaration, e puo si move
<Tasoshi>
I suppose the judges who hanged socratees thought it was all intentional too
<kanzure>
have you ever heard of plato? socrates? galileo? morons.
<instagibbs>
let's not ignore the fact that Tasoshi can not seem to read at all, much less philosophy
<bsm117532>
(00:42:45) gmaxwell: petertodd: Peter_R himself published most of it, http://pastebin.com/jFgkk8M3 more of it was also described in this channel with him in the room.
<bsm117532>
Let's end this topic.
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<Tasoshi>
Sure, why discuss the atmosphere of medieval priesthood around here - I mean the priests don't benefit from that. Let us fully ignore all that enlightenment has told us about truth processes. Let's instead banish the heretics... I mean, if you wish to operate in that sort of atmosphere, then your choices of course, but I am sure everyone agrees that sort of atmosphere has been fundamentally proven to be very wrong.
<fluffypony>
"This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies"
<fluffypony>
please stick to the subject matter.
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<Tasoshi>
It wasn't chatting theoretical ideas up to now, but plotting on suppressing academic input.
<coinoperated>
Tasoshi, Peter_R can come in here and defend himself just fine, he has been willing to do so many times. You aren't going to help matters by gradually reworking your hypothesis about in-group behavior into simple ad hominem.
<Tasoshi>
I just thought to defend the principles that have come out from the enlightenment. If you guys disagree, that is perfectly fine, of course. Plenty of places where academic input is actually valued.
<coinoperated>
you're going the wrong direction
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<JackH>
talking about theoretical ideas, has anyone seem the MIT paper btw?
<maaku>
What paper?
<JackH>
Enigma
<bsm117532>
Oh yes, discussed here many times.
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<JackH>
quite a great concept and one of the very few proposals with some sense to it
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<bsm117532>
I think it needs some work but i generally agree.
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<Taek>
I had a long conversation with one of the creators (GguyZ) last night, I feel like I have a good grip on what it can and cannot do
<Taek>
though not a good grip on how it works
<kanzure>
generic multiparty computation stuff?
<JackH>
do we know when there is code for it?
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<kanzure>
i feel sort of stupid, i just noticed that i am an op, but minutes ago i was asking for a moderator
<kanzure>
i would like to apologize to everyone for my negligence
<bsm117532>
Dunno if you saw the message, someone gave you op about 5 mins ago.
<kanzure>
i'mma mute Tasoshi now until he submits me an essay about the enlightenment
<kanzure>
bsm117532: oh perfect. thanks.
<Taek>
JackH: I believe that there is code that is working now, you can do computation on encrypted data using scripts written in a subset of python
<Taek>
though, I believe as a part of their business model they are keeping portions of the codebase closed source
<JackH>
I like the idea of shared computational resources, although I am not sure if they aim at a "grid" or something lighter
<kanzure>
Taek: welp if they release it then we can reverse engineer it.
<JackH>
like, could this be used for protein folding? mass distributed computational processing of such?
<Taek>
JackH: I think it's fairly complicated. You pick a group of people to hold the data, and they each get different keys for computing on pieces of the data. The slowdown is somewhere between 10x and 100x
<bsm117532>
Too slow. It's the world's slowest computer. It's effective clock rate is ~kilohertz.
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<Taek>
bsm117532: the enigma team is reporting that the slowdown is at worst 100x, meaning clockrates would be closer to 10MHz, not too bad at all if the claims are true
<bsm117532>
It can do arithmetic but multiplication requires inter-node communication. So that limits your computatoin.
<JackH>
yes I would agree if it is general purpose computing, but if its specialized computing that is required, for example like the IBM neural network in a grid, it could work
<bsm117532>
Taek: I don't know how that can possibly be true. It's ping time that limits multiplies. Though you could get MHz on addition...
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<Taek>
hmm, that was not mentioned in our discussion last night. Though, multiplication is technically just repeated addition, it wouldn't surprise me if they have techniques to optimize that stuff.
<Taek>
this is outside of what I know about it though, so I'll stop speculating here
<bsm117532>
There's information loss in multiplication, and you have to recompute the sharing, IIRC
<bsm117532>
It's pretty fundamental.
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<JackH>
they mention this:
<JackH>
Every request in the network for storage, data retrieval, or computation has a fixed price, similar to
<JackH>
the concept of Gas in Ethereum. Unlike Ethereum where every computation is run by every node,
<JackH>
in Enigma different nodes execute different parts of each computation and need to be compensated
<JackH>
according to their contribution, which is measured in rounds.
<JackH>
can be interpreted many ways. either many small proofs or multiple proofs to solve a larger set of data
<bsm117532>
Taek: you can't use the repeated addition trick when you're multiplying two homomorphically-encrypted numbers, because you don't actually know the numbers.
<Taek>
ah yeah, bummer
<bsm117532>
And the domain of x*y is larger than x+y, so if you're operating mod Z you have to recompute the sharing for x*y mod Z. (hence information loss)
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<AdrianG>
altcoins are not offtopic here/
<AdrianG>
?
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<Taek>
not at all, as long as the discussion pertains to their academic merits and shortcomings
<Taek>
sales pitches, tech help, etc. are not okay
<AdrianG>
and technical merits only, i assume?
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<Taek>
yeah pretty much
<CaptChadd>
Hi everyone
<AdrianG>
i just find it very odd, that in a currency/assets area, economic discussions are discouraged.
<AdrianG>
isnt that part of the 'technical'
<Taek>
economics tends to be much more of a dark art, meaning it's hard to understand what causes what
<Taek>
with something like an algorithm, you can break it down and digest it easily
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<Taek>
it's a lot harder to talk about the macroeconomic effects of an inflationary vs. deflationary currency. Those discussions typically don't go anywhere, and therefore are avoided
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<bsm117532>
That said, we depend on incentive mechanisms for Satoshi consensus.
<AdrianG>
which is entirely economic at heart.
<bsm117532>
which are economic. So there's game theory too...
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<Taek>
and I think it is on topic to say something like 'funding POW security through inflation of the currency is a proven mechanic, however it's unclear what happens when the POW is provided by a fee market, and is a potentially inhibiting factor for scale if, for security, you need to make an artificial supply-shock'
<r0ach>
if it's a discussion of inflationary vs deflationary, all you're really doing by making a currency inflationary is attempting social engineering, but that social engineering is usually bypassed entirely because deflationary options always exist whether it's something like gold, or in current day times, stocks act *mostly* as a finite austrian currency
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<r0ach>
so Gresham's law just bypasses your social engineering and goes there
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<nsh>
now you're just making up words and putting them in random sequences
<nsh>
that's why we don't do economics chat :)
<nsh>
somewhere between 'we'd like the estimated expectation value of mining to be positive' and 'stocks act *mostly* as a finite austrian currency' is the on/off-topic line. the exact boundary depends on other factors, generally quality and interactability of the ideas being discussed
<nsh>
where an idea is interactable if it's expressed in a scientific manner, using generally well-understood terms of reference as they are generally understood and not requiring too esoteric assumptions or prior lore/theory that will not be received by the plurality of the channel
<nsh>
or something like that. i just clean telephones
<gmaxwell>
r0ach: and yet ethereum exists and has a non-trivial market cap; even though not only is it inflationary, but the future inflation rate isn't even known or commited to.
<gmaxwell>
(they're only commited to it being positive)
<smooth>
gmaxwell: true about not committed to but planned to switch to proof of stake which effectively makes it non-inflationary
<smooth>
of course, when matters
<gmaxwell>
smooth: the POS will still be inflationary.
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<MRL-Relay>
[othe] Not really, you always own the same % of total coins
<smooth>
gmaxwell: i guess it depends how many people stake. if distributed to the existing coin holders, that's redenomination, not inflation
<instagibbs>
MRL-Relay, but it's clearly the people with more Eth that will stake more.
<instagibbs>
well, I say clearly, i mean i think so
<smooth>
instagibbs: most likely, although there are pools
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* instagibbs
underlines "clearly" to "prove" it
<gmaxwell>
smooth: go look at any of the other POS coins for that: besides, one could make the same argument for mining.
<smooth>
gmaxwell: it is not the same argument for mining, but ill just leave it there
<Guest95596>
gmaxwell, Do you know of anything which gives a good explanation of the cpu/space tradeoffs in the 'obvious' proof of space algorithm?
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<bramc>
I have some thoughts about possible approaches to fixing it, but need to know the underlying problem better first
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<AdrianG>
fixing what?
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<bramc>
AdrianG, The proof of space algorithm which consists of demonstrating a preimage whose hash is a partial collision with the challenge
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<nsh>
i wonder if you could use rainbow tables as a proof-of-space, which have to be regenerated at each block and must be custom to the private key claiming the mining reward
<nsh>
issue is the challenge being generated without a trust issue due to retention of the key/pt
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<AdrianG>
nsh: i.e. network-based RNG?
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<nsh>
generating entropy is easy enough. allowing a challenge to be set that can be solved by anyone and validated by everyone without the setting computer having an advantage is more difficult unless it's a preimage search
<nsh>
i don't know about rainbow-tables in the context of hash reversal, only symmetric ciphers really
<nsh>
if you could share the computation of a ciphertext of the input to a hash function in a way that prevents the reconstruction of the input afterwards by some threshold of colluding parties, then i think it's doable
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<nsh>
oh well actually the tables used to decrypt A5/1 are actually a large amount of reversals of the one-way function of the internal state of the A5/1 stream
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<nsh>
so maybe it's possible to generate a puzzle without having an advantage using some hash structure
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<instagibbs>
what is "reasonable efficiency" in this case? Cool stuff regardless.
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<MRL-Relay>
[shen] instagibbs, efficiency is essentially if you did a current xmr transaction and a CT transaction at the same time
<MRL-Relay>
[shen] possibly slightly better since it uses the Liu Wei Wong version of ring signatures instead of XMR current fujisaki/suzuki based ring sigs
<MRL-Relay>
[shen] also much of the storage cost of the CT part should be prunable
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<OxADADA>
kewl
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