sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<kanzure>
heh, higher full node count probably provides some resistance to most contributions from bandwidth to orphan rate
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<kelly_>
hey
<kelly_>
anyone watching the mining channel?
<kelly_>
err. mining panel?
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<AaronvanW>
kelly_: #bitcoin-workshops
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<nanasho>
with over 50% of hashpower, chinese miners could orphan new blocks found by western small miners on purpose
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<gmaxwell>
nanasho: yes. They do implicitly just due to propagation delays, without even trying.
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<bramc>
Oh that's why it's so quiet. Everybody's at the conference.
<gmaxwell>
not everyone.
<bramc>
gmaxwell, Are you not at the conference?
<gmaxwell>
Nope!
<bramc>
Well that's two of us
<phantomcircuit>
bramc, three
<bramc>
By the way, I've decided to put back in an optimization I sort of accidentally took out: Every node representation in the tree is actually two siblings side by side. Reduces cache misses. Implementation of it is a lot easier when you pass the parent in to a bunch of recursive calls. They usually ignore it but when they wouldn't it's a big mess to skip.
<fluffypony>
phantomcircuit: even me!
<bramc>
It's remarkable how long it takes for all this simple subtle stuff to work their way into one's brain. I think I've at least got a final API worked out now.
<bramc>
But, come to think of it, I really should put in that batch is_included call. I'll go do that now.
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<bramc>
Sorry to tease everyone with these strange comments without actual code. As soon as I have runnable code I'll make it available.
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<bramc>
A funny quirk of my proof format: Proofs of inclusion are congruent to 1 modulo 33. Exclusion is 0 modulo 33.
<bramc>
It's possible to trivially shave a few bytes off proof lengths, but I'm not feeling that parsimonious.
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<adlai>
probably be more valuable to have a cleanly understandable prototype than an optimal one, leave trivial shavings as 'student exercises' :)
<bramc>
adlai, Yes although it isn't always clear what optimizations are sufficiently meaty that I should include them. I think I have it worked out reasonably now.
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<bramc>
One of the optimizations I'm not doing is porting from Python to C :-)
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<adlai>
perfect student project!
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<bramc>
True, although it is a gating factor on benchmarking and optimization.
<bramc>
I mean, obviously if the Python version I'm working on beats the more algorithmically naive approach written in C on benchmarks outright, then obviously it's ahead already, but I'm not banking on that.
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<bramc>
Once I implemented a 'high-performance set' in Python. It didn't start life as a set, it was something more complicated which got refactored into using regular sets, and it included things inline to avoid a memory lookup. It wound up being a factor of two slower than a built-in set, which was fairly impressive given the amount of bit-twiddling it did. An STL set of course supports inlining of data, so it didn't matter fo
<bramc>
r a port.
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* adlai
distills his joinmarket-inspired ramble: miners give blocks rhythm, but fungibility markets make their content rhyme
<bramc>
I should probably do a blog post explaining the basic of how I'd redesign bitcoin peer protocol
<adlai>
for which purpose? peers have varying priorities in their communication, i assume you're looking at general purpose validation nodes?
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<bramc>
Yeah this is for full nodes to talk to other full nodes
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<bramc>
The main idea is to keep everything from melting in the case of a battle between nearly-tied long-running forks
<gmaxwell>
that was from the mining panel I think.
<gmaxwell>
From the IRC chatter I think you would have been cringing at a fair chunk of it.
<zooko>
Bramc, gmaxwell: it appeared to me that the miner in question wasn't really familiar with payment channels or lightning network and I suspected that he thought they were altcoins.
<bramc>
zooko, Yes that was obvious from what he said
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<zooko>
My personal take-away from the panel that apparently contained 90% of the mining power was that they are actively disinterested in forming opinions about how Bitcoin should be changed.
<gmaxwell>
zooko: thats not inconsistent with history.
<gmaxwell>
I think I've commented before; random miner view is? "Is my money shitting machine still shitting money?" "Good."
<gmaxwell>
This isn't universal by far but there is a large amount of active disinterest; part of it is due to the huge cognative loads in just being a large miner.
<gmaxwell>
If you're spending all your time trying to purchase power and not get defrauded on hardware.. that isn't much time to think about Bitcoin.
<zooko>
*nod*
<gmaxwell>
(We see a similar effect in other areas; people spending all their time on banking regulations don't have time to spend thinking about Bitcoin either...)
<zooko>
Gmaxwell: you don't read my tweets do you?
<gmaxwell>
No. I don't twitter unless someone links me to something.
<gmaxwell>
(often I can't decode the darn things.)
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<zooko>
Ok. I tweeted that the miner panelists pled for "the core devs" to please just tell them what to do and give them software that does it.
<bramc>
That presumably would be 'us', for values of 'us' not including me.
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<sipa>
in montreal one of them literally asked that... so we hold this conference... what is the decision?
<zooko>
I wonder who has the power to speak with the Voice of the Core Devs, from the perspective of those panelists.
<bramc>
I still like the Do Nothing strategy
<gmaxwell>
bramc: it's useful to have an answer to "What are you doing?" "We're doing X".
<adlai>
well they're thinking all the time about Bitcoin, but neither do gold miners don't have time to hypothesize where down the table might lie 'islands of stability'
<bramc>
gmaxwell, 'We're doing weak blocks and lightning network'
<sipa>
"we're doing 'keep this thing running'" :)
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<bramc>
I tell people that I've been working on cryptocurrency on two thread: (1) try to figure out the viability of a proof of space based system (interesting recent thoughts on that btw) and (2) try to keep the current ecosystem from imploding.
<gmaxwell>
I have been working on a post that outlines a scalablity arc. That starts with the work pieter and codeshark will present tomorrow in segwitness and fraud proofs; then improved relay (weakblocks and friends); then functionality for scalable micropayment channels; while exploring dynamic limit schemes; and keeping patches for a small size hardfork in our pocket until they become obviously safe or
<gmaxwell>
obviously necessary.
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<adlai>
bramc: "Do Nothing" gets knee-jerk anticonservative responses. "everything must be adaptablablabla!"... so I prefer framing it as a social contract that only needs to be signed once, and any potential change should be measured by the degree to which it retroactively modifies the fine print
<gmaxwell>
yea, "do nothing" is socially disadvantaged, "Something must be done! This is something! It must be done!" but besides, we're not gonna do nothing regardless, we've been doing stuff for months.
<bramc>
gmaxwell, What is segwitness?
<sipa>
bramc: segregated witness
<bramc>
Oh right, that helps a lot/possibly is completely necessary for lightning.
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<bramc>
I sometimes forget that that wasn't done right to begin with because I live in a world of unicorns and rainbows.
<gmaxwell>
E.g. ho ho ho bitcoin 0.12 increased connect block tip speed about 7x. Weak relay block has been (re)invented. CLTV will lock in on the network in a few days, which already makes secure payment channels much more realistic.
<gmaxwell>
And hopefully we will do segwitness-- though we'll see how it resonates with people... and give it powerful fraud proofs, that enable new security tradeoffs.
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<gmaxwell>
We've (matt) done the relay network client and seen benefits from improved relay, time to go to the next step with with that, and get improved relay in use for all nodes.
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<adlai>
how could segwit resonate badly with anybody? it's opt-in for keyholders so people who like/need malleability (or mistrust softforks by default) can just not use it, and miners do keep saying "tell us what to do"...
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<adlai>
and "not use it" doesn't prevent luddites from accepting txs that sign from segwit outputs, because the recipients would only care that the new utxos are... whatever they ask them to be. segwit aiui doesn't break this
<Luke-Jr>
adlai: segwit touches block size issues
<Luke-Jr>
eg, do the witnesses count toward the limit or not
<gmaxwell>
adlai: CLTV was agressively opposed by Mike Hearn, attempting (explicitly) to deadlock bitcoin protocol progress unless he got his hardfork.
<gmaxwell>
adlai: I would not be surprised to see segwitness opposed for similar reasons; with the faulty rational that if conservative clear win moves are blocked pressure will make the drastic change the only option.
<gmaxwell>
But I also hope I'm just being cynical here.
<gmaxwell>
Also as luke notes, segwitness construction is easily a moderate defacto blocksize increase. (and the way Pieter has constructed his proposal, thats what it is). If the devisiveness has poisoned things too throughly here it may be opposed by people who've dug in too deep against "blocksize increases".
<gmaxwell>
Which was one of the most critical risks that I cautioned against with that attempted push for 101 via appeal to the general public.
<adlai>
re: witness limiting, obviously there should be some limit. seems to me the limit on v3 blocksize should go down, although maybe by less than the amount of space added for witnesses. plenty of room for bikesheds here :D
<gmaxwell>
And avoiding that at all cost has been poltically very costly as I and others have pulled amost every punch to avoid leaving us in a case where no increase is actually possible, even one that is pretty sensibe. :(
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<adlai>
this could be a great "win-win", it's a chance to sneak in a v3 block size decrease!
<gmaxwell>
adlai: I think waxwing and Luke-Jr were discussing making a proposal that went 512k->1mb->2mb.
<gmaxwell>
I've wanted a blocksize decrease for almost two years now, but didn't think it was politically viable; and instead hoped we'd be able to catch up with 1mb with libsecp256k1 and the relay network.
<gmaxwell>
Did not account for how long that would take and blocksize drama slowing progress generally. :(
<adlai>
finance is an order of magnitude easier to generate than verify. i mean bullshit.
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<waxwing>
gmaxwell: not me for sure :)
<waxwing>
perhaps a nickname mixup?
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<oldbrew>
nasty netsplit
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<kanzure>
yes i think a writeup that presents a positive scalability narrative for "do nothing" (which is bullshit of course; considering active development) would be extremely useful
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<MRL-Relay>
[othe] whats the point of that kanzure?
<kanzure>
was a link distributed in hong kong, i think
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<MRL-Relay>
[othe] yeah i saw it, but the libsnark code is on github, if i want to get involved i will just either push my stuff to github or open issues there?!
<kanzure>
perhaps zooko is using this to recruit employees
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<bramc>
How does segwitness de facto increase the block size?
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