sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<a87ry5>
would mempool set reconciliation be way to covertly broadcast transactions? (aka post a transaction to your mempool but do not broadcast, wait for someone to reconcile then send it to them to broadcast)
<a87ry5>
assuming of course the reconciler is not the one trying to denon your transaction
<a87ry5>
deanonymize*
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<srpx>
Hello. What is the best reference to implement bitcoin signatures (ecdsa with secp256k1, right)?
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<maaku>
a87ry5: other than UI aspects, that's not a bad idea
<andytoshi>
srpx: if you're doing this for educational purposes, you might check out the libsecp256k1 library and its comments. yes, it is ECDSA over secp256k1. If you are doing something in practice you should probably just directly use the library or one of its bindings
<fluffypony>
maaku: I don't believe it would practically make a difference
<fluffypony>
you're still first-broadcast IP on reconcile
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<srpx>
andytoshi: problem is that I'd like to have the code on the host language; it compiles to many targets and finding a binding for each target would be a nightmare. Also would make it impossible to publish it as a lib, users would need to install the bindings, etc.
<srpx>
andytoshi: just directly translating a well-written codebase should be ok, no?
<srpx>
manually*
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<andytoshi>
no
<andytoshi>
the result would not be sidechannel resistant nor would it carry over any API contracts that are implicit in the type system of the target language
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<srpx>
that's why I don't like ECDSA "here is this magic piece of software built by 'experts', trust it, no you can't implement it yourself and stfu"
<srpx>
how is that acceptable? fuck that attitude, honestly
<andytoshi>
*shrug* crypto is hard
<srpx>
we have signature algorithms that can be actually understood and implemented by common people
<srpx>
andytoshi: /\
<srpx>
the only hard bit of cryptography on bitcoin is ecdsa, and it isn't required at all
<andytoshi>
this is not the channel for anti-enlightenment social commentary, "let's take the plane back from these smug pilots", etc etc. if you have specific questions you're welcome to ask and if you want pointers to what things to look at you'll find them
<srpx>
just a rant though, but if I can't implement the algorithm myself, then fuck I don't trust it
<srpx>
okay
<andytoshi>
you're welcome to take that attitude, you won't have a very livable life if you take it seriously though
<waxwing>
there's a difference between 'i can implement the algo myself' and 'i can implement it in a way that's both performant and safe for large scale use' right.
<srpx>
won't be replying to respect the channel, but I'd like to talk about the subject, "trust the experts who wrote this implementation" goes absolutely against the spirit of btc imo, given that we have options
<srpx>
sorry for the tone, though
<srpx>
@waxwing I think andytoshi's point is that non-experts in crypto (whatever defines that) can hardly implement ecdsa safely (and I agree, by the way - too many small things to mess up)
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<waxwing>
sure, i believe it (indeed my comment encapsulates that). not sure how big of a disagreement there is here, then?
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<srpx>
no disagreement at all I guess
<srpx>
((still sucks)
<sipa>
i won't claim that only experts can write high performant secure code
<sipa>
but it is a remarkably large amount of work
<waxwing>
it sucks that bitcoin transactions aren't free too. /me runs away
<sipa>
so it isn't so much a argument from authority "smart people say it's good, so it's good"
<sipa>
it's more a "many eyes have reviewed this codez you should probably prefer it over alternatives"
<waxwing>
i should show my code to my pet bees. very secure :)
<srpx>
That's better than "trust an expert", but still, heartbleed. I'd rather go with a "see, we're using this much simpler algorithm which you can understand, implement and verify yourself".
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<andytoshi>
i am curious what signature algorithm you have in mind which is simpler than ECDSA and can be implemented in a sidechannel-free way without being extremely careful
<andytoshi>
also note that libsecp does not allocate anywhere, which alleviates your concern about libraries that use allocators that you can't understand
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<andytoshi>
(in fact this is the only such strategy because any performant allocator will necessarily use crazy algorithms that require significant study in order to grok)
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<maaku>
someone should have pointed out that "have the code in the host language" is a dangerous requirement because very few toolchains can be trusted to actually generate side channel resistant code after optimization and compiler magic