sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<maaku>
Observation for the logs: if some sort of explicit covenant API were added (as opposed to indirect covenants via transaction data introspection), then perpetual covenants could be prevented by disabling the covenant check if max-relative-locktime is set in the nSequence
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<maaku>
Also I'd like to note a particular dumbness: p2sh-wrapped-p2wsh puts a 256 bit script hash underneath a 160 bit P2SH hash. That's 12 needlessly wasted vbytes.
<sipa>
maaku: yeah
<maaku>
oops
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<maaku>
I mean on the one hand I'd rather not have to support forever whatever hack would be used to differentiate p2wpkh vs 20-byte-p2wsh inside a p2sh, but 12 vbytes per input is a lot
<sipa>
only 3 wasted vbyyes
<sipa>
due to the discount
<maaku>
sipa: redeem script is in the scriptSig, no?
<sipa>
ah, yes indeed
<sipa>
you're right
<sipa>
yes, extra complexity to avoid it
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<contrapumpkin>
are HD wallets such a good idea that pretty much all modern coins use them now? any notable exceptions?
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<sipa>
contrapumpkin: i don't know
<sipa>
if it weren't for the parent_extpub + child_private = parent_extprivate property, i'd say absolutely
<contrapumpkin>
yeah :/
<contrapumpkin>
I wonder if anyone will come up with a fix for that, or if this is good enough
<sipa>
i believe it is impossible to fix with judt EC crypto
<sipa>
you can construct something where master keys are size 32*N bytes, which are secure as long as an attacker knows at most N-1 private child keys
<sipa>
many years ago i asked Dan Boneh about this, and he came up with a solution that required pairing crypto
<contrapumpkin>
if you ask boneh about crypto, you're going to get pairings in his answer :P
<contrapumpkin>
not that that's necessarily bad :)
<contrapumpkin>
it's nice to see him involved even tangentially in this community
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<waxwing>
he was involved in bulletproofs which are pairing-less contrapumpkin
<contrapumpkin>
fair enough :)
<contrapumpkin>
I used to be a big fanboy of his
<contrapumpkin>
not that I'm not anymore, but I haven't paid much attention in years
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<contrapumpkin>
when people talk about Schnorr for bitcoin, are they talking about Ed25519 or something else?
<andytoshi>
to the extent that they're talking about anything specific, i believe they're talking about the aggregate signature proposal that gmaxwell sipa and myself are working on
<andytoshi>
but i think that's a pretty small extent :)
<contrapumpkin>
have a link? trying to catch up with all the new stuff I missed over the past few years :P
<andytoshi>
ed25519 would be a suboptimal thing to do for a lot of reasons, but a big one is that it uses a different curve with completely different addition formulae and would basically double the amount of core crypto code dependency
<contrapumpkin>
ah
<andytoshi>
sipa: might have a link, but to the best of my knowledge there isn't one yet .. the pure crypto part of things is basically the Bellare-Neven paper, but that's a small part of what's involved in bitcoin integration
<andytoshi>
and _that_ needs much more discussion, on the ML and elsewhere, which hasn't happened yet
<andytoshi>
i hope we'll spark that around the time of BPASE 2018 https://cyber.stanford.edu/bpase18 where we'll talk about some of our thoughts
<contrapumpkin>
someone put a Bon.* requirement on program chairs
<andytoshi>
lol
<contrapumpkin>
thanks for the link :)
<waxwing>
wouldn't it be correct to say that a Schnorr proposal would also include the use of Schnorr for single-signer cases? so not only B-N and friends?
<andytoshi>
single-signer is a special case of B-N (though it might involve slightly goofier hashing than you'd have if you were only thinking about single-signer)
<waxwing>
right so you use that as the general framework and just have the 1-1 case. fair enough.
<andytoshi>
yup
<andytoshi>
but the essential formula is identical: `R, s = R + eP` with `(s, R)` the sig, `P` the pubkey, and `e` a hash of R and P and the message
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