lekernel changed the topic of #milkymist to: Milkymist One, Migen, Milkymist SoC & Flickernoise :: Logs: http://en.qi-hardware.com/mmlogs :: EHSM Berlin Dec 28-30 http://ehsm.eu :: latest video http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL181AAD8063FCC9DC
<wolfspraul> autorouters are overrated, I said it a few times :-) you should fully expect this kind of thing
<wolfspraul> Apple again 'stunned' everybody by manually laying out the ARM cores in their latest-gen A6 chips
<wolfspraul> so given tech industry history, in how many years does everyone else manually lay out their chips too?
<wolfspraul> 2? 3?
<azonenberg> wolfspraul: well they didnt manually lay out everything
<wolfspraul> 'manual' is probably an overstatement, I would think they just use heavy instrumentation/guidance so that it comes out clean
<azonenberg> and i wouldnt expect GREAT performance from an autorouter
<azonenberg> But i'd expect mediocre rather than poor
<wolfspraul> azonenberg: yes but you understand my point, the layout of apple's latest arm cores is very unusually 'clean'
<azonenberg> Yes, and was probably done by hand
<azonenberg> My point is, only the arm cores
<azonenberg> not the whole doc
<wolfspraul> maybe not worth it/not done yet
<azonenberg> i'm going to say "not worth it"
<wolfspraul> but you know autorouters... don't expect too much from them
<wolfspraul> they can only do good if heavily guided
<azonenberg> Yeah, I just expect its best guess to be better than garbage
<wolfspraul> right, and to run!
<azonenberg> i mean that doesnt even look like a local minima
<wolfspraul> I think that's where >90% of people have more important things to do anyway, and what keeps the autorouters in play
<wpwrak> azonenberg: maybe try to hand-optimize it. see if you can find a better local minimum.
<azonenberg> wpwrak: i'm doing hand placement now
<azonenberg> i was hoping i wouldnt need to do that because i wont be on the xc6slx45 for very long
<wolfspraul> azonenberg on apple's heels
<azonenberg> i just ran out of space on the lx25 and am moving to the xc7a100t as soon as i have time to finish designing this board
<wolfspraul> can't be long until the lines are forming at his home...
<azonenberg> i just jumped onto an atlys in the interim for a couple of months so my coding doesnt hit a standstill
<wpwrak> well, i'm not overly surprised autorouters in fpgas aren't doing any better than autorouters on pcbs ;-)
<azonenberg> Oh, i hand route all of my pcbs
<azonenberg> But thats because they are somewhat less complex
<azonenberg> i can afford to hand tune
<azonenberg> on fpgas i cannot hand route everything
<azonenberg> But hand tuning of autorouting is commonplace
<wpwrak> i like my pcbs very small. that pretty much kills autoplacing and autorouting.
<azonenberg> all hand routed
<azonenberg> wow, it's been a month?
<azonenberg> and i havent had time to assemble it yet
<wpwrak> poor camera work but apparently good routing :)
<azonenberg> lol my cheap camera cant handle low light well
<azonenberg> i dont think skill could save it
<wpwrak> tripod plus log exposure ?
<azonenberg> long exposure... do you see how much thermal noise is on that sensor?
<azonenberg> that isnt motion lbur
<azonenberg> blur*
<azonenberg> that's the sensor sucking
<wpwrak> or flash. one useful trick is to use a bit of paper as a diffusor in front of the flash lamp.
<azonenberg> I tried flash but i think it didnt turn out well
<wpwrak> hmm, that much thermal noise is bad indeed ...
<azonenberg> i mean its a long exposure but still
<azonenberg> this is a $50 camera from three or four years ago
<wpwrak> note sure how it affects long exposure, though.
<azonenberg> what do you expect
<azonenberg> It's irrelevant in short exposures
<wpwrak> ah, okay ;-)
<azonenberg> the SNR gets a lot better
<wpwrak> one problem is that they increased resolution to ridiculous levels, while keeping the sensor size roughly constant. i think that has changed in the last years.
<azonenberg> Yeah, this was a 3-megapixel sensor that was pretty small
<wpwrak> 3 MP is still quite reasonable.
<wpwrak> my camera has 10 MP :-( (canon sd880is) nice camera in general, but i'd be happier with half the resolution.
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