kentonv changed the topic of #sandstorm to: Welcome to #sandstorm: home of all things sandstorm.io. Say hi! | Have a question but no one is here? Try asking in the discussion group: https://groups.google.com/group/sandstorm-dev
<ocdtr_web>
I'll work up a Docs PR this week to get vagrant-spk dev documentation synced with these changes, and then (pending reviews and merges), will work on getting the release officially built and published.
<ocdtr_web>
Also the release script has a lot of code around using Sandstorm build numbers, so I'm gonna have to rework that a bit.
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<abliss>
does ekam generally "work" incrementally for you guys? i've still never completed a sandstorm build, but every time I try, ekam(?) prints thousands of "compile" lines for things that should already have been compiled on the last test.
<abliss>
then 15 minutes later the build fails for some reason (usually, inability to `#include "node.h"`) but i've already lost interest by then
<abliss>
is there a way to build sandstorm and all its deps continuously, then?
<abliss>
does ekam-bootstrap do continuous build? or do i have to get through the ekam build?
<isd>
`make continuous` is a wrapper around ekam's continuous mode
<isd>
I don't know the answer to your other questions.
<CaptainCalliope>
Good meeting. I'll throw the notes on the wiki and set stuff up for the next one.
<abliss>
(am i crazy to see "no incremental builds" as an absolute dealbreaker for a build system? Ian Denhardt how long does it take you to finish your first build after a reboot?)
<isd>
abliss: maybe 10 min.
<isd>
And yeah, I was kindof appalled when I first discovered that.
<abliss>
and it builds all the deps from scratch every time?
<abliss>
(i'm really unsure whether any of the deps have ever succeeded building on my machine)
<isd>
But I can't say it's "an absolute dealbreaker"; continuous mode means you have to do that once per boot, and it's actually quite nice once you're rolling
<isd>
It does.
<isd>
I tend to just do `make continuous` in a tmux session when I first sit down, and don't kill it until I'm going to shut down my machine.
<abliss>
how much ram does that burn?
<isd>
Haven't measured. Let me find out.
<isd>
(Hadn't started working yet today)
<abliss>
i wonder how hard it would be to hack out all the deps (assume binaries) and just build sandstorm itself with a regular old makefile
<abliss>
it's just like 22 c++ files right?
<isd>
Getting the dep graph for the capnp files right is actually kindof annoying
<abliss>
plus 26 capnp files
<isd>
The thing that really sucks about make is there's no great way of discovering dependencies dynamically. e.g. for C/C++ files, the .o should depend not only on the .c/.c++, but also on any headers it (transitively) includes.
<isd>
the compiler has a -M option that is useful for this, but it bombs out if any of those files don't already exist.
<isd>
Since some of them are generated from .capnp files, it doesn't work for us.
<isd>
Maintaining a static dependency graph manually sounds like a ton of work that I don't think makes a lot of sense.
<isd>
Ok, ekam is idle now, let me see how it's doing on memory...
<isd>
It's currently using 0.7% of my memory
<isd>
So ~50MiB
<abliss>
is there a way to tell the sandstorm build to skip building/running all the test code? i'd love to find out 30 minutes earlier whether my build succeeded or not
<isd>
I don't think so. I'm not sure if ekam core even understands the difference between tests and other build jobs
<isd>
does it really take that long on your machine?
<abliss>
i dunno, since i've never seen it finish :(
<isd>
Do post some error logs somewhere, so we can help.
<isd>
Ug, that workaround makes my skin crawl.
<isd>
But, for that matter: does hibernate work on your box?
<abliss>
you mean the ORM? or the os feature?
<isd>
OS feature.
<abliss>
dunno, never tried it
<isd>
Once you get the build working, that might help as a way to avoid having to restart it.
<abliss>
the ekam process seems to be mostly running tests now. but it still hasn't generated a new bin/sandstorm binary.
<abliss>
i do have a new bin/capnp as of 10 minutes ago
<isd>
Yeah, builds & tests are going to be interleaved unless there's actually a dependency edge.
<abliss>
i really wish there was a way to tell it "don't waste any of my cpu on tests until the binary i asked for is done"
<isd>
Hm, actually I think I was wrong: ekam does have some notion of tests in core.
<abliss>
hey, it's moved onto doing npm stuff now, that's a first for me i think
<isd>
Huzzah
<isd>
Maybe report an issue for the test thing
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<isd>
ocdtrekkie: maybe you already know this, but your blog appears to be down. Looks like maybe it's still pointing at Oasis?
<isd>
Ug, I hate being at that point in recovery from being sick where I still can't get anything done but I'm well enough to want to do stuff. Yesterday I was just incapacitated and slept all day. In some ways that was better.
<abliss>
I was just reading the latest attempt at a self-justifying manifesto from the Urbit guys, and it's remarkably close to a viable mission statement for Sandstorm too. https://urbit.org/understanding-urbit/
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<ocdtrekkie>
abliss: Yeah, I decided to put my Sandstorm on 6080 before realizing that makes it challenging to set it up with Cloudflare and all.
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<ocdtrekkie>
Since it's small and I never write to it anyways (it's been years), I might move it to Alpha.
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<abliss>
should we stand up a demo sandstorm server besides alpha? one managed by the community, so we don't have to wait for kenton to grant privs to new accounts?
<abliss>
so curious people can poke around with the apps currently available?
<abliss>
eh? it redirects to alpha for me
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<abliss>
oh, i guess you have to not already be signed into alpha
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<abliss>
Ian Denhardt: `make continuous` seems to require that ekam is already installed? i tried using `make EKAM=tmp/ekam-bin continuous` and it aborted
<isd>
Yeah, you want an ekam binary in $PATH
<isd>
I'm not actually sure why it expects that.
<abliss>
```terminate called after throwing an instance of 'std::logic_error'
<abliss>
what(): Network dashboard support not compiled in.
<abliss>
Aborted (core dumped)```
<abliss>
should i try to buidl ekam itself independently (which means rebuilding capnp again) and install it in `~/bin` ? or does the sandstorm build need to use the version of ekam that it built alongside its own version of capnp and kj that it built?
<isd>
Yeah, install ekam separately. There's no need for it to be shared by the rest of the build.
<abliss>
is ekam-bootstrap the same as ekam? or do i have to use ekam-bootstrap to build ekam in order to get a 'real' ekam?
<isd>
I'm not actually sure.
<abliss>
also does `make continuous` print something special (or something) to let you know it's done?
<isd>
Not specfically, but if you don't see anything highlighted in purple it means there are no ongoing jobs.
<isd>
I think an explicit "done" indicator would be a good idea though.
<abliss>
yeah, i wonder if i can add that feature to ekam-client
<abliss>
what i really want is for it to send me an email when it finishes so i can wander away
<abliss>
also, your mention of color is giving me the sense that my experience of using ekam might be very different from yours...
<isd>
Oh?
<abliss>
my output is a file, not a terminal, so i don't get any colors or terminal escape codes or stuff
<isd>
Aha
<abliss>
also: looks like demo.sandstorm.io doesn't allow any sharing; it requires upgrading to an account. and alpha.sandstorm.io doesn't seem to allow demo->account upgrades. so people can't really play with one of the coolest parts of sandstorm.
<isd>
It replaces the unicode with an ascii [DONE] or the like when it's not hooked up to a terminal though.
<abliss>
(yes, i'm thankful to not have unicode glyphs sprayed across my screen)
<ocdtrekkie>
abliss: I would not assume Kenton is going to hand out a lot of accounts on alpha. If he wanted to do that he probably would not have shut down Oasis. :P
<ocdtrekkie>
Demo does indeed run on Alpha now, he moved it from Oasis, but he probably doesn't want a lot of long term data use on it.
<ocdtrekkie>
Rather than have a "server managed by the community", I would rather we just use our servers. I don't mind granting active community members accounts on my server, except for one key issue: https://github.com/sandstorm-io/sandstorm/issues/3204
<abliss>
not sure what you mean by " a lot", but i just meant enough for well-meaning community members who want to get their feet wet testing out apps
<ocdtrekkie>
It'd also just be good to get away from thinking about that one master server. As a community.
<isd>
Agreed. We should be prodding folks in th general direction of self-hosting, maybe piggybacking on a friend or somone.
<isd>
*someone
<ocdtrekkie>
And Alpha also has the #3204 problem: Kenton doesn't have a good way of seeing how much people are using on it either.
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