kentonv changed the topic of #sandstorm to: Welcome to #sandstorm: home of all things sandstorm.io. Say hi! | Have a question but no one is here? Try asking in the discussion group: https://groups.google.com/group/sandstorm-dev
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<isd>
The link I posted earlier now has an updated spk with more metadata filled out, an icon etc. Thoughts welcome.
<isd>
The icon is a pixelated 90's checkbox. I kinda like it but I also worry that in certain contexts it could be confused for an actually checkbox widget in the UI.
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<ocdtr_web>
isd: I am passionate about screenshots in app submissions. People should know what to expect.
<ocdtr_web>
And in this case, I would specifically cite the use case being excellent mobile support.
<ocdtr_web>
Because that’s when I got why I’d want to use it.
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<isd>
Noted. Will do that
<ocdtrekkie>
isd: Honestly, you really only need a single screenshot, and maybe a phone screenshot would be the ideal presentation. Just remember to use something like tinyjpg.com to make said screenshot wonderfully small. (I am sure there's an "open" alternative, but that site has never done me wrong.)
<isd>
davros share is updated.
<ocdtrekkie>
I like it. App looks really good as a phone screenshot.
<isd>
Submitted
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<codecowboy>
Hi. Can anyone confirm if the outbound Email integration should work on a fresh install? I'm getting an error trying to use sendgrid.
<codecowboy>
Anyone around?
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<ocdtrekkie>
codecowboy: I responded to your email. Sorry, I was asleep!
<codecowboy>
ocdtrekkie Jacob?
<codecowboy>
not sure if its bad form to use real names on IRC - havent used it in a while
<CaptainCalliope>
I just got off a call with the founder of opencollective.
<CaptainCalliope>
Pia Mancini.
<CaptainCalliope>
She's going to join us for our March 3 office hours call.
<CaptainCalliope>
Fundraising conversation will probably be all we talk about that meeting.
<CaptainCalliope>
I should probably check to see if that date works with Kenton.
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<ocdtr_web>
codecowboy: Yeah, that's me. Realistically if on GitHub someone's username and real name is correlated, correlating them elsewhere isn't a big deal.
<ocdtr_web>
I no longer use my RL name on sites like Twitter to offer a degree of separation, and no longer list my employer *anywhere* except LinkedIn, where I think it should require some degree of relationship to show you it.
<ocdtr_web>
But fundamentally, it's not super hard to tie someone's RL to their common nicks after they've been around the Internet a while.
<codecowboy>
cool. thanks for your replies on the dev group
<codecowboy>
As a newcomer it would be nice if I had a rough idea who the active contributors are
<codecowboy>
just so I can form a map in my head of who people are
<ocdtr_web>
We have a little/informal community group going at the moment, but it's not super officially defined like the core contributors list on the Sandstorm about page is.
<codecowboy>
Are all those core contributors still involved?
<ocdtr_web>
None of them are except Kenton. (That about page is basically "Sandstorm.io employees" from when Sandstorm was a business.)
<codecowboy>
aha
<codecowboy>
And talk of fundraising? I don't know much about how/ why open source projects get funding
<ocdtr_web>
isd is probably our leading Sandstorm core code contributor right now. abliss has done a fair bit of work on getting automation going for docs publishing, getting tests running again, etc. xet7 is Wekan's lead developer, who recently PR'd expanding localization to cover the mass transfer feature.
<codecowboy>
other than when they are backed by a company and then grow and then start charging for enterprise features
<ocdtr_web>
Right now, the only funding we've got is that isd has a GitHub Sponsors profile, since he's a freelancer and has to try to afford food to survive.
<codecowboy>
food sounds fairly essential
<ocdtr_web>
There's a lot of ways Sandstorm development could get funding, either through user support/donations, enterprises wanting to pay for folks to prioritize features, foundations sponsoring the development of a next generation web technology, etc.
<codecowboy>
ISD is ian from the google group?
<ocdtr_web>
Yeah
<codecowboy>
speaking of wekan, it doesn't seem to work on my self hosted instance
<ocdtr_web>
It should!
<ocdtr_web>
What is happening?
<codecowboy>
It just says 'Loading...'
<xet7>
codecowboy: How much total RAM that server has?
<xet7>
codecowboy: What Wekan version you see at Sandstorm Programs, that Wekan has?
<codecowboy>
thing = think
<codecowboy>
it has 1024 I thing. I think I maybe also didn't add a swap file yet (only built this am)
<codecowboy>
actually maybe the session had timed out
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<codecowboy>
3.56.0~2019-11-21
<ocdtr_web>
1 GB of RAM is pretty low for a Sandstorm server probably.
<xet7>
For Wekan I recommend 2 GB minimum
<ocdtr_web>
I really owe xet7 the Wekan app update approval. I am going to do it today.
<codecowboy>
but it seems to be working now
<codecowboy>
Well, for now I am being a cheapskate :)
<ocdtr_web>
It's probably just pretty slow on 1 GB of RAM. Note that Sandstorm doesn't have a huge performance overhead, but at a really low RAM threshold, you're going to have a lot of apps that don't perform well, especially if you use multiple at a time.
<xet7>
codecowboy: I recommend adding swapfile at least.
<codecowboy>
yep, will add it to the list
<ocdtr_web>
Sandstorm's security isolation design costs a bit of performance in that having two Wekan boards open equates to running two Wekan servers.
<xet7>
Linux could get some kernel oops when there is no swapfile, and it runs out of RAM memory
<codecowboy>
understood
<ocdtr_web>
Cheapskate-for-now is a good strategy for trying new things. :) I just figure you should be aware.
<codecowboy>
so is sandstorm running an actual LXC container for every single grain?
<ocdtr_web>
I don't know my containerization flavors, but yes, every grain runs in it's own container.
<ocdtr_web>
If you have Etherpad grains A and B, and you share Etherpad grain B with someone, no amount of security vulnerability in Etherpad could ever result in that person accessing grain A, because they're literally different instances of the software.
<codecowboy>
LXC is just the native linux kind of container. You don't actually need something like docker if you know what you're doing (I don't)
<ocdtr_web>
I'm a Windows-based IT guy, boo at me, it's fine. :)
<codecowboy>
boooooo
<codecowboy>
RIght, I have to go. Nice to meet you guys. Will hopefully be in touch more
<xet7>
Hmm, seems codecowboy left. Anyway, Sandstorm grains are not in any way related to LXC, LXD and Docker.
<xet7>
It is it's own sandboxing, using similar ways
<xet7>
but not the same
<ocdtr_web>
I just talk about nonspecific magical containers. \o/
<xet7>
Sandboxing in Linux limits file directory visibility, so files in sandbox only see files that are in sandbox, restricts executeables so their processes can not affect other processes, can limit CPU usage etc. They still share the same kernel, grains/LXC/LXD/Docker.
<xet7>
chroot jail is similar
<xet7>
But if it's full VM, like KVM/XEN/HyperV/VirtualBox/VMWare, there is full OS with it's own kernel inside container.
<xet7>
At https://fosdem.org/2020/schedule/events/ at beginning of page is "The Linux Kernel: We have to finish this thing one day ;)" that is so excellent talk about what great stuff Linux nowadays has
<xet7>
So we have something even better than Dtrace, sometime realtime coming to Linux, etc etc
<xet7>
ocdtr_web: Have you tried running VB6 on Docker on Windows? ;)
<ocdtr_web>
I don't actually have a copy of VB6, unfortunately. :(
<ocdtr_web>
Microsoft wants everyone to do .NET, so they never bothered making it easy to get their old versions of stuff.
<ocdtr_web>
I kinda want to learn ASP .NET Core web development, and then try to get that to run in Sandstorm for fun.
<xet7>
ocdtr_web: Have you tried VB.NET ? How does it work?
<xet7>
Could VB.NET work on Sandstorm grain?
<ocdtr_web>
I am a VB .NET developer, if you would call me a developer at all.
<ocdtr_web>
VB .NET generally is used for making desktop apps. You can write ASP .NET using VB though, which is then web development. I've never done it though.
<ocdtr_web>
When doing web development, I tend to fall to the Internet's second least favorite language after VB, and write in PHP.
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<isd>
Can confirm, I do not write good code without food.
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<ocdtr_web>
isd: Food is generally indeed considered good for coding effectiveness.
<ocdtr_web>
isd: Yata is approved in the market, but I PR'd a bug I found. xet7 and I were wondering how much yak shaving you'd gotten to involving meteor-spk because of Wekan.
<isd>
A lot.
<isd>
Wait, because of wekan? I haven't started poking at that yet
<isd>
I spend a while fussing with trying to update meteor-spk when I was getting the old tests pr merged, eventually decideded not to bother and got that working with the existing version
<isd>
ran into all sorts of nonsense. You know meteor-spk ships two versions of mongo?
<isd>
...one of them our own fork?
<isd>
There's a story there. It's not pretty.
<isd>
I think I'm going to at least finish up #3027 before diving in to anything else like that.
<ocdtr_web>
Yeah, I know you had looked at it because of the test app. But Wekan is holding on an old version for the Sandstorm package because the build has broken. \o/
<isd>
I'll have a look when I can
<isd>
TimMc: thanks for the sponsorship!
<xet7>
Well, I could build newest Wekan with old Meteor and old Node.js. Well, newest Node.js 12.15.0 has security fixes etc.
<ocdtr_web>
Just figured I'd put it on your radar as a possibly worthwhile purpose in figuring out the meteor-spk nightmare.
<xet7>
And with old Meteor, it's not possible to export some boards.
<isd>
I think node-capnp still doesn't work on node 12.x. There's a patch somewhere, but it hasn't been merged...
<xet7>
Hmm, node-capnp is Sandstorm-specific stuff.
<isd>
Yeah. But meteor-spk embeds it automatically so you can just use it. Maybe not important for Wekan, but that should still work when we upgrade meteor-spk.
<isd>
Really, we should get node-capnp up on npm so less magic is needed there, but that requires some troubleshooting of its own that I haven't done yet.
<ocdtr_web>
So much to do...
<ocdtr_web>
Ian, how do you feel about human cloning?
<xet7>
Some Wekan-Sandstorm integration probably uses node-capnp for something, that's from time before 2016-12 when I started maintaining Wekan.
<ocdtr_web>
I don't think there's any capnp magic in Wekan's Sandstorm integration. It's just the user account stuff and making a board by default.
<ocdtr_web>
Oh, there IS
<xet7>
I would like to have some clones of myself. Some of my clones could code features to Wekan while I'll go to sleep.
<ocdtr_web>
I forgot how much stuff was contributed to Wekan integration.
<xet7>
I would also like to buy some cheap UFO from supermarket and do some space travel just by myself.
<isd>
My double would also have to eat, and feeding two existant engineers would probably be easier.
<isd>
Getting human cloning working seems like much too big a yak to shave. Maybe if we could already do it.
<xet7>
Human cloning should work so, that if I cut some small amount of hair from my head, and put it to 3D printer, from hair DNA it should print a clone of myself.
<xet7>
And then load some software from Amiga floppies to my clone's brain.
<xet7>
like in Matrix
<xet7>
I would also like some pill that would change my body fat to muscles.
<xet7>
And that I can print real money with my printer.
<xet7>
of any amount
<xet7>
Well, I'll try sometime build newest Wekan spk with old Meteor etc
<isd>
I am asymptotically approaching not-being-sick.
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<TimMc>
isd: Yeah! Though I might drop it to a lower tier and keep it going longer. (Can't remember if I already did that this morning, though.)
<isd>
It's at 100 now
<TimMc>
I wish they had the ability to choose a tier. 25 to 100 is a big gap!
<TimMc>
*choose an arbitrary level
<isd>
I can make one in the middle if there's an ammount you prefer.
<isd>
I wish it gave folks the option of just picking a number, even if it isn't exactly at one of the relatively arbitrary levels I picked
<isd>
What would be ideal for you?
<TimMc>
Ah cool, I'll think on it and get back to you on that.
<isd>
k, let me know
<ocdtr_web>
I am at "bounty payment" level, but I'm kinda hoping to just leave it there if my finances don't kill me first.
<isd>
Whatever you feel comfortable with. Don't go broke for me.
<isd>
And thank you.
<ocdtr_web>
I don't think about it as "for you". It's a "I want this Sandstorm thing happening".
<ocdtr_web>
Which is self-centered because I use it.
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<isd>
Still, don't go broke.
<isd>
Probably type errors caught at have cost me close to two days of debugging working on Sandstorm at this point. Really looking forward to starting to migrate stuff over to typescript.