<ZirconiumX>
xcup+ would require RapidWright, so it wouldn't be a completely FOSS flow. If that doesn't bother you, then sure.
<ZirconiumX>
Although consider that list price figures are generally majorly inflated compared to business prices
<daveshah>
Due to cross-die placement and routing issues, anything other than Zynq UltraScale+ and perhaps the smallest Kintex if it's single die isn't supported by nextpnr anyway atm
<ZirconiumX>
Okay, fair
<lukego>
ZirconiumX: Sure but hackers don't have access to better than list prices generally right? everybody else does but not us...
<ZirconiumX>
Hackers don't, primarily due to economies of scale
<lukego>
OK. So yeah it's not a very exciting card from a toolchain perspective, but still exciting to me to see an affordable hardware for 100G ethernet dev. I'm planning to work with ECP5/10G but if I wanted to do anything commercial I'd probably need to use 100G and it's nice to see a potential path
<daveshah>
You'd also have your work cut out doing pinout RE, etc, with a board like that
<lukego>
Yeah. Maybe make a new board and move the chip across.
<lukego>
Guess it's not anything I need right now but still nice to know that if I wanted to prototype a 100G NIC it's possible I could pick up the FPGA for hundreds rather than thousands of dollar.s
<ZirconiumX>
You can also source old Stratix chips for not too much
<ZirconiumX>
Sadly though the toolchains for them still cost a bomb
<daveshah>
Oh yeah, that's the other problem with XCKU15P, you still need a Vivado license for official bitgen with RapidWright
<daveshah>
although you can pay by the hour on AWS, at least in theory
<ZirconiumX>
I feel like there's a razor and blades model going on here
<ZirconiumX>
Though the razor is still really expensive
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<daveshah>
Definitely not, just another way of reducing the support burden from people they don't care about
<daveshah>
Vivado license would be free for anyone important enough
<lukego>
The model I'd like to see is "cheap hardware that poor hackers can use to build expensive stuff for rich companies to buy." Like if I could spend $350 on an UltraScale+ and use that to write some gateware that a stock exchange spends a million dollars on, etc.
<lukego>
seems like the vendors encourage this model but do it via universities.
<ZirconiumX>
It's a crappy situation.
<lukego>
Could even be a positive that the production hardware/software is expensive if that increases the perceived value of products based on it. But chicken egg problem if the prototyping gear is too expensive for hackers to take a chance on.
<lukego>
Thankfully this is a second-order problem and for now I just need to do something with ECP5 using dave &co's fantastic toolchain :)
<ZirconiumX>
Actually, daveshah, how big does Crosslink go?
<lukego>
I'm n00bing around a little bit. I ended up blasting my ECP5 with hot air at 500C for a couple of minutes. Curious to see if it works.
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<awygle>
> consider that list price figures are generally majorly inflated compared to business prices
<awygle>
people say this all the time but i have not actually figured out how to actualize it
<awygle>
it doesn't look like the procurement people at the company i work for are doing much that i wouldn't do myself
<awygle>
maybe we're not big enough
<daveshah>
Amazon certainly have - unless they are making a massive loss on EC2 F1
<daveshah>
I've heard of another large customer (name confidential) getting about a 5x discount buying 1 million+ iCE40s for a consumer product
<daveshah>
I think the quantities to trigger it are higher than most people expect when they hear about them
<awygle>
must be
<awygle>
i'm currently working on a project at an awkward scale, where i can't get enough from e.g. Digikey's stock, but also Lattice and Arrow won't take my calls :(
<daveshah>
Avnet were happy to quote for those kind of quanities for Xilinx in the UK (pricing wasn't great though)
<daveshah>
don't know if they do Lattice too
<awygle>
does Avnet distri-yes that
<awygle>
they do not
<daveshah>
Surprised that Arrow won't, they seem about the equivalnet
<awygle>
i am gonna try again with Arrow, maybe if i get somebody on the phone they'll understand that i have a) budget b) schedule to absorb lead time
<daveshah>
or DigiKey/Mouser RFQ?
<awygle>
they were just like "yeah we don't have that many, so no-quote, talk to this company we own that calls Mouser and Digikey for you"
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<thasti>
is it possible to access cell/module attributes using pyosys currently?
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<lukego>
So I'm curious about Xilinx software license costs now... if you pay $3k for vivado, will they also nickle-and-dime you on basic features like e.g. SERDES? and I guess there's a substantial risk that you need to buy it again a couple of years later if there's some killer new feature e.g. rapidwright?
<lukego>
also, can't run rapidwright on AWS for the ultrascale chips, because the AWS toolchain is device-locked on that crazy $50k virtex that they use?
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<Seraxis>
lukego, I got a years license for Vivado Design Edition and Vitis for 10 bucks with the Zybo Z7 from Digilent. As far as I can tell once you have a license that's it. I've read it's a pain to use it between different machines.