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<rqou> azonenberg_work: wasn't this the exact same group/process that we tore apart a year or so ago? https://twitter.com/azonenberg/status/1035318447377240064?s=19
<rqou> the group that i described as "looks like homework"?
<azonenberg_work> rqou: i'm not done tearing it apart yet
<azonenberg_work> follow the thread :p
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: sounds like you know your silicon manufacturing
<rqou> we both kinda do
<rqou> i think azonenberg_work is better at it, but i did study it
<prpplague> rqou: ahh dandy
<prpplague> now i know who to bother with questions
<prpplague> hehe
<prpplague> :P
<rqou> azonenberg_work: seriously we need to just get working diy cvd/rie and a way to actually purchase spin on dopants
<rqou> then we should be "basically done" :P
<prpplague> rqou: you guys trying to get setup to do small batch stuff?
<rqou> just for fun, not for production
<prpplague> ahh
<rqou> but we all need to get some "life" sorted out first
<rqou> like azonenberg_work's friggin house renovation
<prpplague> hehe, i'd love to hear about the progress and such
<prpplague> i've been experimenting with qflow/magic stuff
<rqou> fortunately, it seems all of "high-vacuum twitter" lives on the west coast :P
<prpplague> and debating on signing up at efabless.com
<rqou> azonenberg_work: oh btw i actually found out that @profanegeometry and i are basically neighbors. apparently "high-vacuum twitter" is very very geographically close
<whitequark> rqou: really.
<rqou> yeah
<prpplague> rqou: "high-vacuum twitter"?
<rqou> prpplague: whitequark, nanographs, szeloof, profanegeometry, M_Labs_Ltd
<rqou> did i miss any?
<prpplague> rqou: ahh you just mean some active users on twitter with regards to silicon work?
<rqou> silicon, electron microscopy, and high-vacuum
<prpplague> ahh nice
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<qu1j0t3> jeri's not doing anything?
<rqou> idk what she's doing nowadays
<rqou> seems to mostly be ham stuff? (and pinballs i guess)
<rqou> oh hey azonenberg_work btw you should update your address in the fcc database :P
<azonenberg_work> rqou: i have a lot of htings to update, thats just one
<azonenberg_work> i can still get mail from the fcc due to the forward for another ~11 months
<azonenberg_work> so its not super urgent
<rqou> much stalk very opsec plz no dox :P
<prpplague> jeri ellsworth?
<rqou> oh huh your license doesn't need renewal until 2024 anyways
<rqou> wait azonenberg_work what did you do in 2016?
<azonenberg_work> rqou: what do you mean "what did i do"?
<rqou> your "effective" date is 2016 in the database
<azonenberg_work> Oh, i think i forgot to update it when i moved from NY
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<azonenberg_work> So thats probably the date of the address change when i started actually operating
<rqou> ah lol
<azonenberg_work> (despite having a KD2 callsign prefix i've never actually transmitted on a ham radio in region 2)
<rqou> heh
<rqou> hmm, would the fcc database not be gdpr compliant in Europe? :P :P
<rqou> cc gruetzkopf
<rqou> > much stalk very opsec plz no dox :P
<azonenberg_work> i think the rationale is that you forfeit your right to privacy of contact info by operating under the ham license? but idk
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<cr1901_modern> Of course azonenberg_work would have a "the reason this sucks" speech in response to this tweet :P https://twitter.com/ico_TC/status/1035082907868639234
<Bike> blockchain...?
<rqou> iirc we've torn up their procedure once already about a year ago
<qu1j0t3> prpplague: yes
* cr1901_modern sees "Robert Martin" in "Trends for you".... siiiiigh... what did he say this time
<rqou> lol who?
<cr1901_modern> Oh, it's about the NYG
<rqou> NYG?
<Bike> xtreme programming... bad binges of c2
<cr1901_modern> New York Giants
<prpplague> qu1j0t3: ahh dandy
<prpplague> qu1j0t3: i met her once and spoke with her on the phone about a dozen times
<prpplague> qu1j0t3: i was working at TI when she was working at Valve, and we had some conversations about using the OMAP4 with some of the TI DLP tech for Valve's VR stuff
<cr1901_modern> azonenberg_work: >despite having a KD2 callsign prefix i've never actually transmitted on a ham radio in region 2
<cr1901_modern> I've done it... 4 times I think? My first contact was one of the W1AWs
<cr1901_modern> But inertia and no place for an antenna basically means I don't do it.
<azonenberg_work> cr1901_modern: the point is i dont live in region 2 anymore
<azonenberg_work> and in fact i bought my radio after i moved here :p
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<cr1901_modern> azonenberg_work: If I used Echolink, I could _probably_ find an Echolink node close enough with a cheap Baofeng radio to talk to you
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<azonenberg_work> There are some folks who use echolink to talk to the PSRG repeater near here
<azonenberg_work> WW7PSR
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<mkdir> hi
<azonenberg_work> They have a node somewhere around there
<azonenberg_work> And WW7PSR has a twice daily "9 o'clock net" at 0900 and 2100
<mkdir> what are some good powerful FPGAs to buy?
<azonenberg_work> On days when i go into seattle for work I normally tune into it and say hi if i can get a check-in through from my bike
<azonenberg_work> mkdir: Lol
<azonenberg_work> That's a difficult question without more info... FPGAs range from about $0.50 to $50000.00
<mkdir> lol true
<azonenberg_work> What are you doing with it?
<azonenberg_work> Also, it's probably a question for ##fpga
<mkdir> ooh
<mkdir> hmm
<azonenberg_work> this channel is specifically about open source software for FPGA development
<mkdir> should i got there then?
<azonenberg_work> Whereas ##fpga is for general technology discussion
<azonenberg_work> I mean you can ask here too but you'll probably get more useful answers there
<mkdir> true
<mkdir> thanks
<mkdir> very helpful
<azonenberg_work> (feel free to hang out here if you're interested in the open software side of things for FPGAs, though)
<mkdir> will do
<azonenberg_work> The lattice ice40 family is i believe the best FPGA supported by open tools but it's tiny as FPGAs go... there is active development on ECP5 support but i dont know if it's quite useable yet
<azonenberg_work> Xilinx 7 series parts are much larger and useable for pretty significant sized designs, but they're a lot further from being useable
<azonenberg_work> a lot of the bitstream has been reversed but there's no actual toolchain for it yet
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<mkdir> hmm
<mkdir> how about the altera line?
<mkdir> and how does spartan-6 differ
<mkdir> from
<mkdir> artix
<mkdir> I mean
<mkdir> spartan 7
<azonenberg_work> Spartan6 is an older line that i dont recommend using ever, xilinx's EOL'd toolchain is the only way to target it
<azonenberg_work> I like to describe it as xilinx's Windows ME
<azonenberg_work> the product so bad that they killed the whole line off and rebooted it
<azonenberg_work> Spartan-7 is a cut down virtex
<azonenberg_work> it's not based on spartan6 at all
<azonenberg_work> (at least, any more than xilinx's parts in general share common lineage)
<azonenberg_work> Altera side, i believe there is basically zilch
<azonenberg_work> rqou did some reverse engineering work for some of their older CPLDs
<azonenberg_work> But i dont think there is anything for a modern altera FPGA whatsoever
<rqou> for altera, the max ii/iiz/v are reverse engineered for the 240le part
<rqou> which is supposed to be similar to a cyclone i
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<azonenberg_work> If you want a modern FPGA family capable of nontrivial designs with a well-supported commercial toolchain plus active development toward an open source toolchain
<azonenberg_work> 7 series is the way to go
<rqou> max10/cyc10lp/cyc10gx are in the pipeline eventually (tm)
<mkdir> 7 series?
<azonenberg_work> Even though you cant do open toolchain dev on them yet, it's going to happen
<mkdir> you mean xilinx 7 series?
<azonenberg_work> Yes
<rqou> i would not recommend going for 7 series at this point because the people working on it are disgusting
<mkdir> how about artix-7?
<mkdir> is that the same thing?
<azonenberg_work> mkdir: 7 series is artix, kintex, virtex, and spartan7
<mkdir> how does artix differe from spartan?
<azonenberg_work> (and rqou has a bit of a personality mismatch with the devs of that project, as you can see :P)
<azonenberg_work> If an open toolchain NOW is on your requirements list then you'd want to go with a lattice part supported by icestorm and/or nextpnr
<rqou> I wouldn't call outright malicious behavior a personality mismatch
<azonenberg_work> mkdir: Spartan-7 is the successor to Spartan-6 LX, logic with no gigabit transceivers
<azonenberg_work> Artix-7 is the successor to Spartan-6 LXT, logic plus gigabit transceivers
<azonenberg_work> they just renamed the familes
<mkdir> oh
<azonenberg_work> then they forked off the low end Virtex and renamed them Kintex
<azonenberg_work> But as far as i can tell, a kintex7 is almost the same as a virtex7, just less gates
<azonenberg_work> performance of the individual logic blocks appears almost identical
<rqou> until you get up to the SLR parts?
<azonenberg_work> Artix and spartan are basically the same performance, just a question of if you need transceivers
<azonenberg_work> in fact our analysis indicates that some artix and spartan SKUs are the same die, just different bond-outs
<cr1901_modern> hmmm...
<azonenberg_work> (this was the case for spartan6 too, you can see a transceiver-shaped cutout in the LUT array for the non-transceiver parts)
<rqou> hmm azonenberg_work "fun" question: do any virtex SLR slices match up with any other parts in the family?
<azonenberg_work> Kintex is definitely faster than spartan
<azonenberg_work> But kintex to virtex just buys you more luts and faster transceivers
<azonenberg_work> rqou: I believe that there are only a handful of virtex7 SLR dies
<azonenberg_work> and they just mix and match
<azonenberg_work> same with ultrascale parts
<azonenberg_work> i believe the vu9p is three copies of the same SLR die and the vu5p is two
<rqou> but none of the SLR subcomponents match any other SKUs?
<azonenberg_work> all one die
<azonenberg_work> just a different interposer
<azonenberg_work> i havent crunched all the numbers to confirm but i think i remember somebody saying that they were the same logic die
<mkdir> so spartan 7 is basically a good powerful
<rqou> but not the same logic die as e.g. a kintex?
<mkdir> board
<mkdir> since the logic can probably also be ported to virtext?
<mkdir> virtex
<azonenberg_work> mkdir: Generic HDL not using any FPGA-specific features ports very easily
<mkdir> ah
<mkdir> very good to know
<azonenberg_work> If you use FPGA specific stuff like PLLs and fancy I/O cells you are usually locked to a vendor and family
<mkdir> how much is virtex 7?
<azonenberg_work> But xilinx parts are designed to allow smooth scaling between the different lines
<rqou> many kilobucks :P
<azonenberg_work> so its not that hard to port
<mkdir> also is kintex more powerful than spartn7?
<azonenberg_work> Yes
<azonenberg_work> I dont know off the top of my head what the entry level v7s cost
<azonenberg_work> Artixes range from about $25 to $300 iirc
<azonenberg_work> Kintex starts at $100ish and runs up to a few thousand
<rqou> azonenberg_work: heh, altera mentions you can port netlists from cyclone i to max ii :P
<azonenberg_work> Virtex pricing definitely starts in the four digit USD range
<rqou> as long as you don't use brams
<azonenberg_work> and runs up to the mid five
<cr1901_modern> The largest Virtex has something like 20 MegaBYTES of block RAM lol
<rqou> max v has a nice 0 bytes :P
<rqou> ime digilent boards are usually good
<rqou> except they usually have proprietary programmers and programming algorithms
<mkdir> altera and xilinx are the only worthy starters right? btw long ago i used the spartan 6
<azonenberg_work> rqou: Many of the more modern ones are FTDI based
<mkdir> but it's been a while since i did that
<mkdir> and that's why i'm asking the question im asking
<rqou> ime ice40 is comparable speed but smaller
<azonenberg_work> and while the MCU based programmers are proprietary, they have a binary blob SDK
<rqou> oh wait no
<azonenberg_work> that you can use
<rqou> you said s6
<azonenberg_work> mkdir: lattice ice40 is tiny but well supported for small stuff by open tools
<rqou> ime ice40 is comparable speed to s3e
<azonenberg_work> ECP5 is competitive size to a small to midrange spartan i think
<mkdir> does altera have anything like spartan 7?
<mkdir> i should probably just stick to xilinx otherwise right?
<rqou> mkdir: if you want to wait and/or annoy me continuously until i RE it, cyc10lp
<rqou> you can get the new arduino i guess
<rqou> iirc pricing is in the tens to low hundreds of USD for parts?
<mkdir> well sorry just trying to find something
<rqou> max10 is similar and a bit cheaper/smaller
<rqou> with built-in flash
<rqou> max v is cute and smol but much more limited
<rqou> it's one of the most "unofficially upgradable" families I've seen though
<rqou> :P
<rqou> ok brb driving
<mkdir> hmm
<mkdir> azonenberg_work: also what tools will i need?
<mkdir> software and hardware?
<mkdir> and you don't have to answer this stuff if you're busy
<mkdir> i do appreciate the help though
<mkdir> uhhh
<mkdir> Vivado is so expensive
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<mkdir> azonenberg_work, you still there?
<mkdir> azozenberg friend
<mkdir> azonenberg_work
<shapr> I still want an ecp5 beaglewire
<mkdir> shapr
<mkdir> you do fpga dev right?
<shapr> nope
<shapr> thought about it once
<shapr> mkdir: do you do fpga dev?
<mkdir> well
<mkdir> i am starting to
<mkdir> i did a while back
<mkdir> but not recently
<mkdir> now i'm looking at what I need to buy
<shapr> should be exciting
<prpplague> a real hootenanny
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<mkdir> hotenanny
<mkdir> that's so funny
<mkdir> is there a free vivado
<mkdir> not a trial
<mkdir> just a free v
<mkdir> ?
<rqou> there should be a "web edition" that's free but limited in what parts you can use
<mkdir> how much is vivado?
<rqou> no idea, never actually paid for it
<rqou> i think several people here have "improved" editions
<rqou> whitequark?
<mkdir> what do you mean by "improved"
<mkdir> also Digilent says this: Vivado Design Suite voucher not included - Vivado Design Suite Edition is available for free download (Vivado WebPACK).
<rqou> what do you think? ;)
<rqou> yeah
<mkdir> stole
<rqou> the webpack version is free
<mkdir> oh what's the difference between webpack and regular?
<rqou> it doesn't support the fancy expensive parts
<mkdir> hmm i guess i should check if i need that
<rqou> you probably don't
<rqou> the parts that aren't supported are all multi-kilobucks :P
<whitequark> rqou: anyone who wants it should just go and patch two functions...
<mkdir> respect
<mkdir> tahnks
<mkdir> very helpful
<mkdir> i'm about to get my spartan 7
<mkdir> yeah boiii
<mkdir> friend, also Arty S7-50T vs Arty S7-25T ?
<rqou> O_o mkdir are you a student?
<mkdir> yes
<rqou> whee, join the "academia" club :P
<mkdir> you too?
<mkdir> how did you know?
<mkdir> cause i'm newb?
<rqou> your ip address belongs to Dartmouth
<mkdir> yes in the library
<mkdir> lol
<rqou> anyways, awygle, azonenberg_work, and i are the fancy academics
<rqou> whitequark is the anti-academic :P
<mkdir> how did you know the ip was Dartmouth?
<rqou> whois
<mkdir> you guys are profs?
<rqou> nah
<rqou> not that fancy
<mkdir> haha
<mkdir> phds?
<mkdir> students
<rqou> not that fancy either :P
<mkdir> Masters?
<rqou> azonenberg_work has the piled higher and deeper :P :P
<rqou> i have a masters
<mkdir> nice
<rqou> feel free to call azonenberg_work "Dr. Zoidberg" :P
<prpplague> hehe
<mkdir> lol
<mkdir> where you guys at?
<whitequark> i dont even have a bs :p
<rqou> hence the anti-academic :P :P
<mkdir> whitequark: you work in industry?
* prpplague has a phd from the school of hard-knocks... summa cum laude
<rqou> whitequark and clifford are the anti-academics who are just as good at doing "academia things" but don't have the fancy piece of paper
<mkdir> mad respect
<mkdir> rqou: what does your workstation look like?
<rqou> a giant mess :P
<mkdir> I'm sure it has like 5 - 7 fpgas, but what else?
<mkdir> scope? multimeter and soldering iron? do i need ny of that?
<rqou> it actually doesn't look like that
<rqou> because moving sucks
<whitequark> mkdir: yeah
<whitequark> if i got a degree it'd be in bioengineering
<whitequark> but fpgas are ok too
<awygle> rqou: I resent that lol
<mkdir> lol
<rqou> resent what?
<awygle> I only have a bs and I'm fine with that
<rqou> i never said it wasn't?
<mkdir> rqou: do I need anything aside from a dev board and vivado? just want to so that i can buy it all now
<awygle> And I extremely don't identify as an academic
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<rqou> awygle: but you also went to $FANCY_SCHOOL :P
<rqou> mkdir: i highly recommend getting a chinese saleae logic clone
<rqou> and a multimeter
<rqou> mkdir: search ebay for "8 ch 24 mhz logic analyzer"
<mkdir> kk
<mkdir> do i need a scope?
<mkdir> or soldering iron?
<rqou> get one if you can, otherwise try to borrow one from the EE lab :P
<rqou> soldering iron would be useful eventually
<mkdir> yeah that's prob what i'm going to do
<whitequark> mkdir: get the 100 mhz 16 ch one
<whitequark> mostly for the 100 mhz
<whitequark> costs about the same
<mkdir> do i need a breadboard and wires?
<awygle> rqou: frankly that was a mistake lol
<mkdir> i've never used a logic analyzer
<rqou> whitequark: where are you finding them so cheap?
<mkdir> how does it differ from the scope?
<rqou> i see some for like $40-$50
<whitequark> rqou: aliexpress
<whitequark> i think it was like $25
<awygle> mkdir: digital only (ones and zeroes) but cheaper and often faster sample rate
<rqou> the shitty 24 mhz ones are like $6
<rqou> i mostly get them so that i can have a giant pile of them
<rqou> one for each project rather than moving them around
<rqou> but yeah, mkdir: do what whitequark said and get a good/better one too
<mkdir> awygle: so basically a cheap scope?
<whitequark> if you use a 24 mhz scope
<whitequark> the fastest signal you could observe is going to be like 4-6 mhz
<whitequark> which is dumb
<awygle> mkdir: the main difference is you can't diagnose anything analog. So power supplies, crosstalk, EMI.
<whitequark> i routinely run out of bandwidth on my 100 mhz one
<mkdir> do i need a logic analyzer if i get a scope?
<prpplague> yea 200MHz is really good "sweet spot"
<whitequark> mkdir: they're for completely different tasks
<rqou> 500 mhz scope i didn't have to pay for ftw :P
<mkdir> ah
<whitequark> a logic analyzer is for debugging digital buses
<prpplague> mkdir: all depends on how many signals and type you are looking at
<awygle> For FPGAs you basically only need a logic analyzer (unless you use a garbage bidirectional level shifter)
<whitequark> a scope is for debugging analog stuff
<whitequark> lol awygle
<whitequark> burn
<mkdir> hmm
<mkdir> hoom hum
<mkdir> ty
<awygle> whitequark: self-owns are my specialty
<whitequark> awygle: i needed one when debugging a smia camera
<mkdir> and i may get some breadboard and wires for kicks but not sure if i need it
<mkdir> lol,
<whitequark> cuz its like 60 mhz
<whitequark> and i needed to look at the eye
<awygle> ah
<whitequark> sublvds etc
<rqou> personally i hate breadboards
<rqou> but i occasionally use one
<rqou> very rarely
<awygle> yeah sublvds is basically analog
<whitequark> i use breadboards all the time
<whitequark> solderless
<whitequark> plug like 20 mhz signals into it
<mkdir> i mean they can be helpful for extra space
<whitequark> it breaks hilariously but sometimes works
<mkdir> solderless breadboard, what that?
<awygle> I use them sometimes. More often lately.
<mkdir> oh
<whitequark> they're not really rated over maybe... 1 mhz
<mkdir> the plug ones
<whitequark> google it
<rqou> i usually use jumper wires or just direct soldering
<awygle> When I was doing RF it was obviously just no
<whitequark> awygle: i remember when i made a hv psu
<whitequark> at like 5 A
<whitequark> assembled it on a breadboard
<awygle> Unless I wanted to add like, a badly tuned slow wave filter or something
<rqou> breadboards are like randomly sprinkling several pF capacitors all over your circuit
<rqou> :P
<whitequark> awygle: to its credit it lasted a few hours
* awygle really wants to do a slow wave design
<whitequark> but it melted very badly eventually
<awygle> whitequark: lol awesome
<awygle> how hv?
<mkdir> kk nything else my friends? or am i good? heres the list: spartan 7 dev board, soldering iron + solder, logic analyzer, scope, breadboard + wires, multimeter?
<whitequark> cuz the transformer heated up from core losses
<prpplague> whitequark: hehe
<whitequark> i think it went to maybe 3-5 kV
<whitequark> unregulated
<whitequark> just an LLC topology
<awygle> mkdir: that seems like enough to be getting on with
<rqou> at least you weren't like the idiots that somehow managed to melt the university's fancy breadboard-with-built-in-sig-gen-and-scope :P
<awygle> As you specialize your interests you'll see if you need specialized equipment or anything
<awygle> Power supply is useful, maybe
<whitequark> yeah get a lab PSU
<mkdir> hmm kk ty
<mkdir> power supply
<whitequark> i prefer switches, others swear by linear ones
<rqou> warning: most of the chinesium ones are not very good
<whitequark> i had a chinese linear psu go into wild oscillation once
<whitequark> and i disassembled it
<rqou> they can generate massive power spikes switching on/off
<awygle> I should do a power supply design sometime, I've never done anything very complicated in power electronics
<whitequark> and it actually had a short between line and ground
<mkdir> can you link me awygle
<whitequark> or maybe no
<whitequark> 36Vac and ground
<whitequark> something insane
<whitequark> clearly has been designed by an idiot
<awygle> mkdir: a psu? I suppose... Sec
<whitequark> grounded screw + solder mask covered power plane + scratch
<whitequark> mkdir: i like QJE power supplies personally
<whitequark> they're well assembled
<whitequark> and reasonably well designed
<whitequark> and quite cheap
<mkdir> otay
<azonenberg_work> awygle: i want to do a lab smps at some point
<awygle> they usually do
<azonenberg_work> my rohde & schwarz HMC8042s are awesome except that the ethernet interface is godawful
<awygle> azonenberg_work: I have heard this rant :-P
<azonenberg_work> you get ~2 updates per second across all channels when polling the i/v
<whitequark> don't get usb oscilloscopes
<whitequark> ever
<azonenberg_work> while the front panel LCD is a lot faster
<whitequark> useless pieces of shit
<rqou> lol
<whitequark> get a scope with a real display and real knobs
<awygle> lol. but yes, true
<rqou> meanwhile NI's ipad one seems to actually kinda work
<rqou> totally overpriced though
* awygle retreats back into "family in town"
<whitequark> rqou: you can take my knobs from my cold dead hands
<awygle> welcome to the channel mkdir
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: i want a scope with no display and no knobs
<azonenberg_work> And no usb port :p
<whitequark> though i personally don't subscribe to the idea that you need one set of knobs per channel
<rqou> azonenberg_work: oh, you mean an NI product :P
<whitequark> at 4 channels that's unwieldy
<whitequark> also, 2channel scopes are useless :p
<azonenberg_work> rqou: I want four SMAs, a QSFP+, and a gray metal 1U case
<whitequark> (joking)
<mkdir> lol
<mkdir> hmm this power supply is so expensive
<rqou> i have a tds3054 that i didn't pay for; it's pretty great :P
<mkdir> thanks for linking though awygle
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: i want something i can chunk into my luggate and have it working
<azonenberg_work> mkdir: Define expensive
<mkdir> like
<mkdir> 3k
<rqou> really shallow sample depth though
<awygle> azonenberg_work: someday I'll convert you to 0.5U
<mkdir> $3k
<whitequark> mkdir: rigol scopes are nice
<whitequark> cheap and they have a loooot of sample depth
<whitequark> like 24M
<azonenberg_work> mkdir: ok wow that actually is a bit pricey
<awygle> 1054z is what I have
<rqou> ping q3k regarding siglenthax?
<whitequark> you can also buy the cheapest model and unlock the better features in software
<whitequark> they have keygens
<mkdir> anything cheaper mates?
<awygle> Scope wise
<whitequark> awygle: 1074z
<azonenberg_work> mkdir: I have two of these https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/HMC8042/DC-Power-Supplies-/-Lab-Power-Supplies/ in a 2U rack case
<azonenberg_work> So total of 4 channels
<whitequark> that works as 1104z :p
<mkdir> ok ty
<awygle> whitequark: well yes lol
<awygle> that's why I got them
<whitequark> don't listen to azonenberg all his solutions are absurd overkil
<azonenberg_work> If you want a big step up from the chinesium power supplies i highly recommend these
<whitequark> you don't need them at this point
<azonenberg_work> But there are plenty of lower end options
<mkdir> azonenberg_work: this is my purchase list atm: spartan 7 dev board, soldering iron + solder, logic analyzer, scope, breadboard + wires, multimeter, power supply
<azonenberg_work> mkdir: Yeah this is overkill if you're at that level
<mkdir> anything else before i can end my shopping spree?
<rqou> oh yeah btw mkdir in case you haven't noticed this channel is also a pretty good "unofficial upgrade" channel :P
<azonenberg_work> mkdir: What are you planning on soldering?
<azonenberg_work> That will really determine your shopping list :p
<rqou> azonenberg_work: he's a newb dartmouth student :P
<whitequark> rqou: try not discussing xilinx or they'll send a dmca takedown again
<azonenberg_work> and fwiw i have not breadboarded a circuit in *years* except for when teaching people
<whitequark> annoying fucks
<mkdir> true lol
<rqou> whitequark: wait what?
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<mkdir> well i may need to interface with other boards
<azonenberg_work> mkdir: I just spin boards :p
<mkdir> which is why included the soldering iron and breadboard
<azonenberg_work> oshpark is cheap
<azonenberg_work> breadboards have garbage signal quality at any sane speed
<mkdir> true, but you don't spin fpga boards, do you ?
<mkdir> ah kk
<azonenberg_work> mkdir: Yes i do
<whitequark> lol of course he does
<mkdir> i'll knock the breadboard
<mkdir> respect
<azonenberg_work> This was hand assembled
<whitequark> but it'll be years before you can do it successfully
<mkdir> maddd respect
<rqou> whitequark: wait, did you get a takedown notice over irc logs?!
<mkdir> i probably won't do that though
<whitequark> rqou: no
<whitequark> see pm
<mkdir> can you send me that?
<rqou> hmm, pm no worky?
<mkdir> i wanna use it?
<rqou> whitequark: try refreshing otr?
<azonenberg_work> No FPGA on this board but it's part of a larger system that will contain one
<mkdir> how much from oshpark?
<mkdir> ship one to me plox
<azonenberg_work> mkdir: the starshipraider prototype? $122.50 for 3 blank boards
<azonenberg_work> And it's a prototype, i dont plan to ever make >1
<azonenberg_work> The full version is going to be a larger 6-layer board with a bigger fpga and lots more cool stuff like 10GbE and DDR3
<mkdir> ooh
<mkdir> fine send me that one then
<mkdir> i'll buy it
<whitequark> oshpark is pretty expensive tbh
<mkdir> with money too
<whitequark> i use dirtypcbs :p
<rqou> ok apparently the otr plugin for hexchat just eats messages if your otr session is messed up
<rqou> brilliant
<whitequark> mkdir: you should get a Glasgow :P
<rqou> or help me make Guren, because Guren wrecks Glasgows :P
<rqou> also because fanservice :P :P
<rqou> oh yeah mkdir welcome to ##openanime
<mkdir> ty ty
<whitequark> rqou: well the next iteration of Glasgow based on ECP5 and FX3
<whitequark> could be merged with Guren, perhaps
<rqou> anyways mkdir i make fpga boards too: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DixZfiLUYAIe7xm.jpg:large
<mkdir> how much was kintex 7 dev board again?
<rqou> mine doesn't work though
<mkdir> o
<azonenberg_work> mkdir: Depends on how big a kintex and what you do with it
<mkdir> can you make me a kintex 7 dev board as long as it's not a scam
<azonenberg_work> a bare xc7k70t is like $120 for the chip alone
<rqou> well, it powers up but i haven't gotten around to doing bringup yet
<mkdir> just something bigger than spart 7
<rqou> whitequark: eeewww still using cypress parts
<azonenberg_work> mkdir: At the level you're at you definitely dont need anything bigger :p
<mkdir> cmon
<mkdir> i need powe
<mkdir> power
<mkdir> i'll grow out of the spart 7
<azonenberg_work> Dont throw hardware at problems before you know how to solve them efficiently
<mkdir> should i just get the artix 7?
<mkdir> true
<rqou> my target was GbE with bonus USB delivered by slapping on an asix usb3-gbe chip :P
<azonenberg_work> You learn a lot by getting a small to moderate sized part and learning how to write efficient hdl
<mkdir> but i will solve it efficiently and grow out of it
<azonenberg_work> And then you can get a bigger board
<azonenberg_work> The lower end ones tend to have much better peripherals for a noob
<whitequark> rqou: what's wrong with cypress parts
<whitequark> oh that
<mkdir> how much is the next step up from spart 7, i'm really just more curious about prices
<whitequark> sure i'm fine with that as well
<mkdir> gotta get bang for buck
<whitequark> rqou: mostly i want to avoid having to PAR an USB core on every rebuild
<whitequark> so no USB inside the FPGA
<whitequark> Ethernet is fine
<azonenberg_work> mkdir: the xilinx kc705 is $1900 for the devkit
<mkdir> nah
<azonenberg_work> $1695 sorry, was looking at the wrong board
<mkdir> so honestly
<rqou> for max lulz and azonenberg_work-pandering you can do GbE+switch-where-one-port-is-baseX/sgmii+asix
<mkdir> spart 7 is the best for the price
<azonenberg_work> mkdir: yes, thats what its for :p
<whitequark> rqou: too complex
<rqou> why?
<mkdir> hmm artix 7 though?
<mkdir> that's a step up right?
<rqou> gotta have that baseX for azonenberg_work :P
<whitequark> rqou: many moving parts
<whitequark> meh
<whitequark> rqou: btw re usb-ethernet
<whitequark> how are you gonna update bitstream
<whitequark> if you don't already have a valid bitstream with a self-flasher
<rqou> i was going to put an additional microcontroller for it
<whitequark> ugh
<whitequark> can we put a GbE port *and* an FX3 there
<whitequark> just route both to the FPGA
<rqou> i mean, i guess?
<whitequark> FX3 could even emulate Ethernet
<whitequark> i just really like how effortless USB is with FX2
<whitequark> it's a nice little chip
<rqou> but now i have to touch usb which is eww
<whitequark> see the thing about FX2 is it hides almost all of the USB ugliness
<whitequark> i mean you do have to deal with a 8051
<whitequark> but FX3 is ARM anyway
<mkdir> azozenberg still can't decide if artix 7 is better for?
<mkdir> me
<rqou> i was going to go with one of those weird switch chips where one port is baseX, one port is gmii, and the other ports are baseT
<rqou> baseX and one baseT port goes outside
<rqou> gmii goes to fpga
<whitequark> now you need an MCU with Ethernet MAC
<rqou> another baseT port goes to an asix thing
<whitequark> which means probably a TI TM4C129x
<whitequark> and it's a piece of shit
<rqou> and another baseT port goes with that stellaris part that's a piece of shit :P
<whitequark> ...
<whitequark> it's also not very cheap
<whitequark> i think my solution is much better :p
<whitequark> we could ship it with FX3 and an SFP cage
<whitequark> if you need GbE you just put it in
<rqou> hmm i just want to touch usb as little as possible
<whitequark> I'll write that code obviously
<whitequark> it's not hard anyway
<mkdir> also do i get 25T or 50T?
<rqou> hmm that _might_ work
<rqou> i guess it depends on when you actually want to build it vs when i want to build it :P
<whitequark> rqou: after glasgow goes into production
<whitequark> dunno, six months?
<whitequark> rqou: oh and once we have project trellis ofc
<rqou> yeah, not really interested with working with them on that
<whitequark> since the whole point of glasgow hinges on having the foss toolchain
<whitequark> i mean
<whitequark> once we have any FOSS toolchain for ECP5
<rqou> i'll take the docs that they have released and build my own thing
<whitequark> i don't care which exact PNR it's going to use
<whitequark> if your PNR works, i'll ship it
<rqou> i'm definitely not upstreaming fixes, to either group
<whitequark> rqou: we're probably not going to ship the same software stack
<whitequark> so it doesn't really matter
<mkdir> rqou: what is the diff between 25T and 50T?
<rqou> yeah probably not
<mkdir> wondering if it's relevant to me
<rqou> since it seems i always have weird ideas about how i want the software to work
<rqou> mkdir: ping azonenberg_work about whether there is an "unofficial upgrade"
<rqou> otherwise just total capacity
<rqou> whitequark: yeah, i'd be interested in doing a collaboration on just the hardware
<rqou> since we seem to have "very fundamental differences" in how we want software to work :P :P
<whitequark> rqou: sweet
<whitequark> i'm fine with that
<whitequark> and it seems like we agree on the basic layout anyway
<mkdir> but what does 25 total capacity mean?
<rqou> mkdir: there's a "product family table" that tells you
<mkdir> kk
<mkdir> ty
<mkdir> friend
<mkdir> gn
<whitequark> rqou: so i guess if we wanted to upload bitstream via ethernet
<whitequark> we could make it so that fx3 loads a bitstream with an ethernet mac into the fpga
<whitequark> then receives data
<whitequark> (probably with smoltcp lol)
<whitequark> then reprograms the fpga
<whitequark> kind of circuitous
<whitequark> but saves cost quite a bit
<whitequark> rqou: another reason i want an sfp is because i think ecp5 is faster than a GbE interface
<whitequark> so it'd make sense to have 2.5GbE or 5GbE
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<whitequark> depending on serdes grade
<rqou> except those specs aren't done yet :P
<whitequark> meh who cares, there's prerelease hardware right?
<whitequark> like draft-n
<rqou> yeah i think so
<rqou> nobody seems particularly in a hurry to ratify anything since it's "yeah, just run this but half as fast"
<awygle> i was gonna suggest ecp5, fx3, usb3, base-x, maybe poe, dc charger for Future!Glasgow
<awygle> so that all sounds reasonable to me
<whitequark> rqou: i really like the sfp idea, thanks
<rqou> blame azonenberg_work :P
<whitequark> awygle: hmm poe
<rqou> everything should be an sfp :P
<whitequark> poe is kind of a real pain
<rqou> yeah no poe please
<whitequark> i looked into it
<awygle> if i actually build that ecp5 compute module maybe use that and save money on the pcb, depending on how hard FX3 is to do pcb wise
<whitequark> there's a zillion standards and then you need a complicated psu
<rqou> i had enough fun with the crazy setup in my apartment thanks to poe
<whitequark> FX3 isn't very hard, mostly you just have USB
<awygle> i meant if it's like, a 0.5mm bga
<awygle> or needs six power rails
<rqou> tl;dr there was a giant tangle of extraneous ethernet cables because we had a wifi AP that _had to be_ PoE
<awygle> something to push layer count up
<whitequark> awygle: ah no
<whitequark> fx3 is a sane part
<whitequark> i think it has two power supplies, maybe even one?
<rqou> also, no altera love? :P
<rqou> could use a cyc10lp and jump on the arduino bandwagon :P
<awygle> rqou: where's my cyclone 10 gx
<awygle> :p
<rqou> lol in the pipeline :P :P :P
<awygle> iiin the pipe, 5 by 5
<whitequark> awygle: yeah it needs 1.2 and 1.8/3.3
<whitequark> so the same as FPGA
<whitequark> it's a 0.8 pitch 121-ball BGA
<awygle> hm, maybe not worth any kind of compute module thing then, unless just for a (hypothetically) proven design
<rqou> hmm wtf is going on with chinese led drivers?
<awygle> lmao i should post that on the (still DoA) HX footprint PR as an example then
<rqou> there is no way the 2020 "apa102s" are using the original apa102 die
<whitequark> awygle: post what?
<whitequark> oh
<whitequark> oh lol
<rqou> so there's somehow a die shrink of the sk9822 which is itself a die shrink of the original apa102
<rqou> hashtag china
<awygle> oh i've actually used this thing. sort of.
<whitequark> it's a really nice chip. it has power, usb, boot i2c, and a 32-bit bus to the FPGA
<awygle> it was on a dev board
<whitequark> that's it
<awygle> whitequark: have you considered doing the "abuse rloc to pre-par larger circuits" trick on glasgow?
<whitequark> rloc?
<rqou> i never really liked cypress parts since they're pretty expensive and complicated and not particularly open, but i suppose it's still cheaper than the giant switch+uc hack that i had in mind
<awygle> relative location constraints
<whitequark> rqou: huh? how are they not open
<whitequark> you get the complete datasheet without NDAs or anything
<whitequark> even for FX3
<whitequark> even though they insist on using their framework for some stupid reason
<rqou> psoc for one isn't open
<rqou> i thought the framework was closed?
<rqou> for fx3
<whitequark> oh i never looked, i won't use it anyway
<rqou> good luck implementing usb-ethernet lol
<whitequark> what's the problem?
<rqou> step 0) which protocol would you like
<whitequark> i could implement usb-ethernet even on current glasgow
<whitequark> i actually might
<rqou> rndis, cdc-ecm, or a clone of the asix chips?
<whitequark> rndis and cdc-ecm
<rqou> different ones give you support for different subsets of platforms
<rqou> and iirc rndis is undocumented
<whitequark> there's a ton of oss implementations
<whitequark> and a linux driver
<whitequark> it's not hard to make
<rqou> do they work? i thought there "were issues"
<whitequark> i thought they work
<whitequark> but idk
<whitequark> do i have to implement a PoC lol
<rqou> i also don't know :P
<rqou> i know the asix driver works with the asix parts :P :P
<rqou> seems actually more reliable than both other options
<rqou> it'll be like FTDIgate all over again, what could go wrong? :P :P :P
<azonenberg_work> awygle: if you need one
<azonenberg_work> I have a FX3 DVK you can borrow
<azonenberg_work> i want it back eventually but am not actively using it
<awygle> azonenberg_work: i'll keep that in mind, probably not for many months
<azonenberg_work> i made a board that talked to it for a consulting gig years ago, the client folded during the contract
<azonenberg_work> I never got the last check, they never got the board back :p
<awygle> lol
<azonenberg_work> So i never wrote firmware. Just the fpga on the far end of the link
<rqou> (drama) woo, apparently naomi wu and the marlin people sorted out whatever was going on
<prpplague> rqou: that's good news
<prpplague> rqou: of course we will never know the really/full story, but it sounded to me that naomi got shafted by those guys
<rqou> yeah i don't really understand exactly what's going on
<rqou> starting with "why is marlin important"
<rqou> but apparently somehow marlin is good at social media presence or something i guess ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<prpplague> yea
<rqou> i do know there was some kind of fight about gpl compliance
<rqou> which honestly imho is a futile effort
<prpplague> rqou: not always futile, but certainly takes skill to legally bring their feet to the fire
<rqou> i mean, i've had this discussion with rob landley regarding busybox gpl enforcement, and he has also given up
<whitequark> oh?
<rqou> basically he found that most vendors, after massive effort, would drop a tarball containing either an unmodified busybox or a busybox with modifications so ugly they weren't even worth cleaning up to be upstreamed
<prpplague> rqou: yea, a lot of the chinese markets are difficult to enforce
<prpplague> rqou: how is ol' rob, i have seen him in a while
<rqou> he was doing the j-core/SEI thing for a while
<cr1901_modern> He frequents #j-core
<rqou> then Business(TM) happened
<prpplague> cr1901_modern: ahh yea i would expect that
<prpplague> rqou: i went after vtech back in 2012
<prpplague> rqou: they kept dragging their feet so i filed for an injunction to block all vtech products shipping into the US
<prpplague> rqou: that got their attentio
<rqou> lol
<rqou> anyways, i care more about people actually using my code than trying to drag them into contributing
<rqou> so i'm not really a fan of copyleft
* cr1901_modern looks at the email sender's name...
<cr1901_modern> what is a "PRP plague"?
<prpplague> prp is short for purple
<cr1901_modern> ahhh
<rqou> ah, so you're named after die-bonding failures? :P
<prpplague> rqou: hehe yea
<prpplague> rqou: it was kind of a double joke
<prpplague> rqou: i used to play quake a lot, and everyone would always select the primary colors
<prpplague> rqou: so i started selecting purple, and i needed a nick name that sound like i would deal out death
<prpplague> rqou: i wanted to do purple-plague, but quake didn't allow that long of a nick name
<prpplague> rqou: so it got reduced to prpplague
<cr1901_modern> Fascinating :)
<awygle> lol that's pretty good
<prpplague> cr1901_modern: TI lost a boat load of money on chips during the early 80's era of arcade video game machines due to purple plague
<rqou> heh, i believe so did MOS/CBM?
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<prpplague> iirc it was the TI management that coined the name purple plague as it was a nasty drain on their stock options
<prpplague> rqou: yea MOS got hit with it during their early releases of their memory and 6501 (not 6502)
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<rqou> i thought the C64 PLA had this problem too?
<rqou> or did it just have other kinds of failures?
<prpplague> rqou: not familiar specific with that PLA, but now you are going to make me research it, hehe
<prpplague> rqou: never was a big C64 fan, hehe
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<prpplague> rqou: not seeing any documentation on issues with intermetallic issues with the C64 PLA
<rqou> must be some other kind of failure mode then
<prpplague> rqou: from what i am reading it looks like the PLA designs just weren't very robust for long term usage
<prpplague> rqou: yea i'll read up on it
* prpplague fancies himself as a bit of a computing historian
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<rqou> whee, i just found out that the news article about the gun in the sf high school earlier today has been updated
<rqou> apparently some student just had a gun in his backpack
<rqou> wow very safety
<azonenberg_work> Lol
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<whitequark> "1840s"
<cr1901_modern> "This list is incomplete"
<cr1901_modern> (By design, naturally)
<whitequark> no "you can help by expanding it"?
<rqou> it does say that
<cr1901_modern> ... Jesus, it didn't even register until now
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<florolf> rqou: re callsign databases vs gdpr: at least the bundesnetzagentur (the german fcc-counterpart) publishes a complete list of all callsigns<->real names (you can opt out of having your address listed)
<florolf> (well, not exactly a counterpart in general. but they at least manage the ham radio stuff)
<rqou> ah interesting
<rqou> afaik you cannot hide your address in the US
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<azonenberg_work> rqou: i believe its legal to have a PO box or other mail forwarder
<azonenberg_work> as long as you are able to receive mail from the FCC
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<mithro> Morning everyone - back in the US now
<shapr> hi mithro! welcome back to drama llama land!
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<pie__> you guys are gonna love this http://www.sal.wisc.edu/docs/Soldering%20Basics.pdf
<shapr> yeah!
<shapr> pie__: you on twitter?
<pie__> no lol
<pie__> repost from other channels
<shapr> ah, ok
<pie__> i wonder if there's a corresponding manual or something
<pie__> wish ratilanes were lsited for the slides
<pointfree> http://dmitry.gr/index.php?r=05.Projects&proj=26.%20CortexProg https://cortexprog.com/ <--- The tool Dmitry Grinberg used for the psoc4 hack.
<pointfree> ^ cyrozap, diamondman
<rqou> apparently Yahoos can't park but Lockheed-ers can't even drive properly
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<rqou> whee, i am now using AS1668 (at $WORK)! retro low AS numbers ftw :P
<azonenberg_work> rqou: i used to work for AS91
<azonenberg_work> so... :P
<rqou> well Berkeley is AS25 so i still win :P
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<gruetzkopf> 1668.. AOL TDN?
<shapr> I think this channel is more fun than the 'real' fpga channel
<qu1j0t3> shapr: we can change this!
<rqou> gruetzkopf: welcome to working for the company of legacy :P
<shapr> eh, I'm happy with this channel
<gruetzkopf> i'm a AOL customer :P
<rqou> lol nice
<gruetzkopf> (still nothing faster than my legacy 2MBit ADSL in my area..)
<rqou> wait is your ADSL AOL?!
<gruetzkopf> yep
<rqou> wtf!!
<gruetzkopf> well, technically telefonica by now (and it's bitstream access, where the line is terminated by Deutsche Telekom and ATM-forwarded)
<rqou> that's neat
<rqou> lol you seem to have a better idea of how this works than i do, and i work here :P
<gruetzkopf> iirc we've started on AOL dialin in 1998?
<gruetzkopf> (i'm always looking for old telco gear (especially X.25 and ATM these days))
* Miyu figured someone had to be German to still have 2 MBit ADSL
<Miyu> even remote Polish villages have 1 Gb fiber these days
<Miyu> :)
* qu1j0t3 is 6 Mbit/sec ADSL and I am fine with it :)
<rqou> gruetzkopf: well, lots of stuff is slated for decomm but i don't know if i can snag any of it (probably not :( )
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<rqou> gruetzkopf: i probably currently have more bandwidth than actual AOL customers :P
<mithro> Guess you have never been to Australia...
<cr1901_modern> I've heard horror stories about AUS
<mithro> We pioneered pay per gigabyte downloaded
<cr1901_modern> Isn't it basically a monopoly down there for Internet?
* qu1j0t3 isn't in Aus, but yes, data is very expensive there generally
<rqou> let's just say that a while back i discovered that even our corp network sucks in Australia
<qu1j0t3> and IT are a pack of drongos
<rqou> gruetzkopf: hey, since you seem to be really familiar with telco internals, i have a question for you
<rqou> do you think you can poke around and figure out whether $WORK still owns a rack of modems in a dusty corner somewhere? :P
<rqou> or is this also terminated by the phone company?
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<pie__> gruetzkopf just knows too much about telco :P
<pie__> also im confused
<pie__> why does germany have AOL
<pie__> well, I guess I just always figured thats an american only company
<jn__> why does $country have Deutsche Telekom?
<jn__> (the ...T. company)
<rqou> hey, at least Telekom isn't quite as unpopular as the red checkmark company that are the corporate overlords
<qu1j0t3> LOL
<rqou> yeah, i (indirectly) work for the red checkmark company so something something glass houses
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<azonenberg_work> Miyu: my parents are getting cable soon for the first time
<azonenberg_work> until then, they had ADSL that was, if memory serves me right
<azonenberg_work> 864K down x 192K up
<Miyu> wow :)
<rqou> yeah but everybody knows that "American exceptionalism" means that we're always the most assbackwards
<shapr> USA internet is not that great
<shapr> Sweden had $100 a month 100Mbit fiber to 90% of the country in the early 2000s
<Miyu> I don't think I have ever met a satisfied US internet customer
<Miyu> though some seem to have resigned themselves to $200/month for terrible service with the forced addition of lots of TV channels
<Miyu> :)
<Miyu> and random monthly charges being added by the ISP
<azonenberg_work> Miyu: lol this is what happens when you run it as a business and not a regulated utility :P
<azonenberg_work> i'm getting business cable at the new location, voice + data but no TV
<azonenberg_work> for something like $180ish a month?
<azonenberg_work> and its going to be 75M down x 15M up or something silly
<azonenberg_work> (it's almost impossible to get halfway decent upstream performance anywhere in the us)
<rqou> but but states rights and relaxed regulations for businesses are like in the Bible or something right? /s
<rqou> also guns
<rqou> Europeans have just never tasted true FREEEEEEEEEDOM /s
<qu1j0t3> wow trollerific
<rqou> thanks :P
<qu1j0t3> Free-fire Fridays
<azonenberg_work> rqou: despite what the current politicians may have you believe
<azonenberg_work> a right to self-defense and restrictions on predatory monopolies are not in any way mutually exclusive
<azonenberg_work> It's just impossible to find anyone who wants both running for any US political office :p
<rqou> hey you're a white male, why don't you run for office? :P
<rqou> just put on a suit or something and you'll fit right in :P :P
<azonenberg_work> rqou: i'd meet the same fate as bernie, i think
<azonenberg_work> Not dirty enough, unwilling to play the game and bribe the right people
<azonenberg_work> so you get nowhere
<shapr> that's why I don't get into politics
<qu1j0t3> shapr: You just haven't found the right investors!
* azonenberg_work has zero chance of ever getting into politics until and unless they introduce the "prostitution policy" for political campaigns
<azonenberg_work> Prostitution is a great precedent for restrictions on political activism, as absurd as it may sound
<azonenberg_work> Because it is an example of an act that is legal between consenting adults until money changes hands
* azonenberg_work wants to see a policy where you can endorse any political candidate you want, but accepting any compensation to do so is a federal felony
<azonenberg_work> For both the payer and the payee
<shapr> er, huh
<shapr> +1 insightful
<qu1j0t3> and then how about severing the metaphor by decriminalising sex work
<azonenberg_work> So if a newspaper runs a full-page ad for your campaign, the editor of the paper and your campaign chair go to prison
<pie__> all of a sudden im not actually sure how youd fund a capmaign though?
<azonenberg_work> qu1j0t3: it doesnt matter, because the legal precedent is set
<azonenberg_work> i.e. it is possible for an act to be legal only if not paid for
<azonenberg_work> Even if that particular act becomes legal to buy, the precedent remains
<azonenberg_work> pie__: thats the point, you don't fund campaigns
<pie__> azonenberg_work, makes sense i guess
<azonenberg_work> Once you get enough signatures on a petition (collected by unpaid volunteers) you are listed on the ballot
<azonenberg_work> News media can interview you and do a story on your platform
<whitequark> awygle: re: relative location constraints
<azonenberg_work> But you can't pay them to get more coverage than the other guy
<whitequark> i think none of the FOSS toolchains are even close to supporting them
<whitequark> and it'd be kind of really awkward with migen too
<pie__> azonenberg_work, ah.
<azonenberg_work> Possibly add an additional "common carrierr" restriction preventing media from exercising discrimination with who they do stories on.
<azonenberg_work> i.e. if you run a story about a candidate you also have to run stories about the opposition of similar length
<pie__> sounds good to me
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: counterpoint: this obligates media to run stories about fringe fascists
<whitequark> thus giving them a platform and a recruitment tool
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: assuming said fascist has enough votes on the petition to get on the ballot, they have the same right to run for office as anyone else
<azonenberg_work> And have people laugh in their face about how nasty of a person they are, but hey
<daveshah> whitequark: the nextpnr backend has full support for relative constraints, it even uses them for carry chains
<whitequark> daveshah: whoa
<whitequark> docs?
<daveshah> it literally just needs some attribute syntax to be added
<whitequark> ha, that's an interesting way to use C++
<whitequark> I like it
* azonenberg_work remembers he REALLY needs to get nextpnr ported to greenpak and coolrunner
<rqou> hopefully before i get annoyed enough to write ShinyKinglerPAR
<gruetzkopf> is kingler in the mega evolution list? :P
<rqou> idk actually
<rqou> Kingler is supposed to be a Rust reference
<rqou> shiny kinglers are green, like greenpak :p
<whitequark> what's a kingler anyway
<whitequark> oh god a pokemon
<rqou> lol yeah
<rqou> why "oh god"?
<openfpga-bot> [jtaghal] azonenberg pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/fAWcR
<openfpga-bot> jtaghal/master 0c01995 Andrew Zonenberg: Fixed bug causing infinite recursion in refactored FTDI code. Confirmed that JTAG-HS2 now works in JTAG mode
* azonenberg_work thinks the last thing we need is more toolchains right now
<openfpga-bot> [jtaghal-cmake] azonenberg pushed 2 new commits to master: https://git.io/fAWcu
<openfpga-bot> jtaghal-cmake/master d8b5d76 Andrew Zonenberg: Updated to latest submodules
<openfpga-bot> jtaghal-cmake/master 9774f42 Andrew Zonenberg: Added protobuf detection and cppcheck target
<cr1901_modern> azonenberg_work: Any chance we could take care of this? https://github.com/azonenberg/openfpga/pull/124
<azonenberg_work> Merged
<cr1901_modern> tyvm
<awygle> I pay 35$/mo for 70M down 20M up, I don't agree with azonenberg_work's "equal coverage" rule for the reason whitequark stated, I agree with qu1j0t3 about sex work and am generally ambivalent about azonenberg_work's proposed political system
<azonenberg_work> awygle: i prefer to let fascists be seen and ostracized rather than taking cover in the darkness
<sorear> can I generally assume 20M will always be Mb and never MB
<azonenberg_work> sorear: I have never seen a network speed, anywhere, measured in bytes per second
<qu1j0t3> awygle: well that covers everything!
<qu1j0t3> maybe irc should be run in digest fashion. you get one post every four hours.
<awygle> I'd get more done at work that way
<qu1j0t3> same
<qu1j0t3> now i just need an adult to enforce this on me
<awygle> accountabili-buddy
<pie__> heh. soneone told me theyre rolling out 10 terabit internet
* awygle returns to driving 120 miles for a concert he's lukewarm on
<pie__> i didnt believe it
<balrog> "equal coverage" rule?
<balrog> wut?
<balrog> I should just read scrollback
<pie__> actually i might be off by a few zeros there
<balrog> azonenberg_work: business cable? watch the cancellation terms
<pie__> man i dont remember, it was some absurd thing though
<pie__> might have been 10 gigabit
<pie__> ah whatever
<azonenberg_work> balrog: what cancellation terms?
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<balrog> azonenberg_work: I know that comcast has a 50 or 60% buyout policy
<azonenberg_work> when i terminated my account on bainbridge they sent ME a check for $49.99
<balrog> if you cancel, you have to pay that percentage of your remaining months to terminate
<azonenberg_work> which was the pro-rated fraction of the month i had prepaid without using
<balrog> some business internet providers have a 100% buyout policy
<balrog> which means if you cancel, you're still paying everything you would have paid until the end of the contract
<balrog> (comcast forces 2 year contracts)
<azonenberg_work> It might have been a contract to start but it was month to month by the time i moved out
<balrog> comcast also renews your contract for you
<azonenberg_work> And i plan to stay in this house for 20+ years
<azonenberg_work> And there are no other ISPs anywhere nearby
<azonenberg_work> its comcast or dsl
<azonenberg_work> So i'm stuck with them no matter how much i hate them
<qu1j0t3> azonenberg_work | And have people laugh in their face about how nasty of a person they are, but hey // Have you looked around lately? It doesn't work that way in practice.
<azonenberg_work> If a fiber provider starts up in the area, worst case i can wait a little while to switch
<qu1j0t3> azonenberg_work: deplatforming is, so far, the only thing we know that works
<azonenberg_work> qu1j0t3: i know of several news articles in which people were caught in news coverage of white supremacist rallies etc
<azonenberg_work> and were fired over it etc
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<qu1j0t3> your president and most of his staff are open white supremacists, dude. whatever Equal Time thing was done, failed.
<azonenberg_work> Have not done any formal statistical analysis to see how common this is
* azonenberg_work watches dominos line up
<balrog> azonenberg_work: yeah, thanks to at-will employment in most states :)
<balrog> as for ads, I have no problem with politicians buying full page ads in newspapers as long as they're paying market rates
<balrog> now if a newspaper doesn't want to do business with them.... that can be a sticking point for some people.
<sorear> the problem is that most people can't make a clear distinction between "ostracism" and "censorship", myself included
<qu1j0t3> sorear: I do see widespread confusion about that but also no need to stop deplatforming
<balrog> (endorsements of politicians from editorial boards are generally considered okay because editorials are opinion pieces and those boards are supposed to have some sort of independence from the newspapers' management)
<azonenberg_work> balrog: you're missing the point, the goal was to prevent well-funded campaigns from having an advantage over folks without corporate backing
<azonenberg_work> "Paying market rates" implies being able to afford the market rate
<balrog> probably campaign contribution limits, but those got struck down by the supreme court
<azonenberg_work> deeper pockets should not translate to an increased chance of winning the election
<balrog> (I think that's what most other countries do)
<azonenberg_work> i'm not proposing limits, i'm proposing to eliminate campaigning :p
<balrog> good luck completely rooting it out
<azonenberg_work> i mean honestly i would like to see congress chosen at random a la jury selection
<azonenberg_work> serve for a term of "vote on one bill" then leave :p
<azonenberg_work> But i dont see elimination of politics as a career being a popular issue for any career politician to approve...
<qu1j0t3> azonenberg_work: couldn't possibly be worse.
<azonenberg_work> qu1j0t3: thats my thought, i'm sure it will have problems but they will have a hard time being worse than what we have now :p
<prpplague> balrog: not getting too into the depth of the discussion on one side or the other, but more pointing out a legal interpretation of some free speech isssues
<prpplague> balrog: a business that operates as a public forum, can not make decisions or censor free speech on their platform. this gives them protection from lawsuits based on the content
<sorear> i'd like some mechanism for people who make policy decisions to actually have experience with policy
<azonenberg_work> sorear: yes that would be nice
<prpplague> balrog: if however, the platform restricts content, and make direct decisions over what is presented and available, then they no longer have the legal protection from being sued for the content
<azonenberg_work> on the flip side, the more time you have in a position of influence the more time you have to get bribed etc
<prpplague> balrog: until now, companies like facebook and goolge have argued that they are public forums when they have been sued
<prpplague> balrog: if however, someone can show that they are actively making publication choices, then the door is opened to a wide range of lawsuits
<azonenberg_work> prpplague: i was proposing a more extreme level of equality where a publication must either not do a story on any candidate
<azonenberg_work> or publish equal length interviews with everyone on the ballot
<azonenberg_work> i.e. banning them from exercising any editorial control whatsoever
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: yea, i was responding to balrog posting the xkcd link
<azonenberg_work> in the same way that e.g. the fire department can't provide preferential treatment to one person over another
<azonenberg_work> in this context a media outlet would be considered a public utility which must provide equal service to everyone
<azonenberg_work> That requires it to be paid at the same rate as other candidates/ads though
<azonenberg_work> It's fair assuming candidates are equally well funded
<azonenberg_work> Which is often not the case, especially for third party
<azonenberg_work> True fairness would require airtime to be provided pro bono to all candidates
<azonenberg_work> Or at a discounted rate to campaigns without sufficient budget to pay the full rate
<prpplague> azonenberg_work: indeed
<azonenberg_work> Which is why ideally i would like to see a single interview with every candidate explaining their platform
<azonenberg_work> and that's it
<azonenberg_work> you can look up their ful lstatement on their website, call their office, etc if you have questions
<azonenberg_work> but zero advertising of any sort
<azonenberg_work> Then you vote and that's the end of it
<sorear> let's say I have a website. is it illegal for me to pay my hosting provider for normal website fees?
<sorear> i like your attitude but i'm far from convinced this can work
<azonenberg_work> yes it would be hard to handle the corner cases
<azonenberg_work> And i dont have all the answers
<cyrozap> pointfree: Looks like CortexProg requires proprietary host software, so that's a non-starter for me.
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<cyrozap> Oh, looks like the Kickstarter campaign for the CortexProg failed, anyways.
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<cyrozap> pointfree: Well, I won't be :)
<pointfree> yea
<rqou> oh lololol i just discovered that isp.netscape.com *) still resolves *) is broken due to gdpr
<rqou> as in, corp ip space got flagged as EU :p :p
<rqou> also i just realized that $WORK actually owns CompuServe
<rqou> insert "what year is it" image here
<tnt> The yosys build system isn't deceptive at all ... it spends half the compile time at "94%" with building "ABC: ...." :P
<balrog> cyrozap: yeah dmitry puts all his work under a nonfree source-available license it seems
<pointfree> There were some people here in ##openfpga who were interested inkjet printing circuits. I can't quite remember who. I think they were qu1j0t3 and genii... anyway, I gave a quick talk on paper & pencil computers at SVFIG https://twitter.com/lowfatcomputing/status/1032825348201754630
<pie__> oh wow haha
<pie__> it would be cool if you could build a computer with a literal stack of papers
<pie__> holy shit you can make diodes just by doing that?
<pie__> that actually works?
<pie__> diode resistor logis iis a thing...
<pie__> logic
<rqou> there are claims that wwii pows made diodes and radios out of rusty razors
<mIKEjONES2> diodes? O_o
<pointfree> At the talk on Saturday Sam Falvo suggested a membrane keyboard from two graphite keyboard contact patterns with hole punched paper in-between (forming membranes). But right now I'm working on an electrostatic-motor mechanical display.
<sorear> mIKEjONES2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_radio#%22Foxhole_radios%22
<mIKEjONES2> holy crap
<rqou> pointfree: btw did you see my EL display experiment?
<balrog> pointfree: you have more detail / results on that? :)
<balrog> pointfree: like, you can do transistors, but how reliable?
<pointfree> rqou: I've been following it and I'm tempted to try it myself. Do you know of any pcb fabs that will do it? What's the lifespan of these EL displays?
<rqou> i mean, those pcbs are just from OSHPark
<rqou> or did you mean "will apply the EL material?"
<rqou> no idea about lifespan yet
<rqou> afaik you can indeed get custom shaped EL panels
<rqou> idk about segmented or with the "really unusual" outcome i have in mind
<pointfree> balrog: I haven't yet replicated Scott's paper and pencil transistors: https://hackaday.io/project/21622-graphite-circuitry-experiments The macroscale geometric diodes work when you have a tiny gap between the anode funnel and cathode block. I get negative reverse bias voltage and positive forward bias voltage on my multimeter. Neither reverse nor forward bias crosses zero.
<pointfree> rqou: Yeah. If I wanted to sell a board could I have a fab apply it for me?
<rqou> i don't think so unfortunately
<pointfree> maybe some day
<pointfree> rqou: Found some info about lifespan and how to preserve it in hackaday comments: https://hackaday.com/2014/04/24/building-el-displays-on-a-pcb/#comment-1379551
<rqou> yeah that was the original inspiration
<qu1j0t3> pointfree: yeah you remembered accurately. Mostly genii, who isn't here :/
<rqou> oh gruetzkopf "fun" thought i had the other day
<rqou> you know you were telling me about how amazing DB's ticketing system is?
<rqou> i have a route that should be possible in theory that it probably can't do :p
<rqou> gruetzkopf: Lisbon->Singapore :P :P
<qu1j0t3> pointfree: another example of WYSIWYG componentry that I found interesting (cc pie__ ) http://thesignalpath.com/blogs/2018/08/
<pie__> analog radio frequency stuff looks awesome
<pie__> idk about WYSIWYG thoug :D maybe :D xD
<pointfree> qu1j0t3: ooh nifty
<tnt> Is there anything to tweak in nextpnr to optimize timing for ice40 ? I'm playing with a very small toy design (that doesn't really do anything useful, just test logic basically). icecube reach ~70 MHz arachnepnr does ~40 MHz and nextpnr does ~23 MHz.
<qu1j0t3> pie__: WATCH THE VIDEO
<gruetzkopf> no, it can't
<gruetzkopf> "closest" i can find in the ticketing system is beijing
<gruetzkopf> (which is not close at all, i know)
<pie__> qu1j0t3, k
<rqou> gruetzkopf: yeah, figured that would be the case
<rqou> gruetzkopf: now try Lisbon->Pyongyang :P
<rqou> (10 years ago this was possible)
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<pointfree> qu1j0t3: well I found a pcb fab will do 5um traces (I want to print some microwave metamaterials) http://www.omnipwb.com/pcb-technical-capabilities.html http://www.omnipwb.com/sub-1-mil-trace-space.html
<benreynwar> Has anyone run migen simulations using Verilator?
<benreynwar> I saw that LiteX was using verilator but wasn't sure whether it's easy to do something similar for a simple migen module, with a migen test.
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<gruetzkopf> rqou: routes.
<gruetzkopf> 280h
<rqou> lol nice
<rqou> lolol
<rqou> amazing
<rqou> <troll>how come europeans can get so many entities to put their databases together but americans can't even build a healthcare website that works</troll>
<gruetzkopf> well there's only two organisations involved in thsi
<gruetzkopf> the "western" UIC (union internationale de chemins fer) and the "eastern" OSShD
<rqou> but how did they manage to put together these two organizations?
<gruetzkopf> (there's huge overlap these days)
<gruetzkopf> "hey, we have international traffic, let's agree on minimum standards" was known to people in 1921-1922
<rqou> apparently not by the US :P
<rqou> American exceptionalism strikes again :P
<rqou> didn't you hear, it's all about "America First" nowadays :P
<sorear> we've got two oceans preventing much in the way of linkage and a bs federal law against even importing trains
<rqou> wait we do?
<gruetzkopf> caltrain was hoping to buy either siemens desiro ML or stadler FLIRT 3
<rqou> i didn't know about that
<gruetzkopf> that's on hold since the currend POTUS is in service
<rqou> gruetzkopf: do you know if the new BART Antioch extension is a European-made train?
<rqou> it's standard gauge and has "very European-looking" door open buttons
<gruetzkopf> (which leads to a project in my area being finished quicker than planned, because siemens suddently has more capacity to build desiro High capacity)
<gruetzkopf> those look very european
<sorear> siemens has a factory in california because of the rule
<gruetzkopf> front shape, schafenberg coupler
<rqou> yeah apparently NIH-ing everything didn't work out so well for BART :P
<gruetzkopf> those look like stadler GTW if i had to guess
<gruetzkopf> kind of the diesel brothers/ancestors to the FLIRT line
<gruetzkopf> manufactured in switzerland
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