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<feuerrot> gruetzkopf: is it a particular miniusb cable?
<gruetzkopf> iirc it was included with palm pdas
<bubble_buster> anyone here use riscv-gnu-toolchain much?
<bubble_buster> ld does little optimizations when I don't want it to :(
<cr1901_modern> Aside, this is a cool solution for the "pc-rel addressing can't address all 4GB of memory", but it seems only riscv uses it. I wonder how other toolchains do it
<bubble_buster> I think that might be what's going on
<sorear> cr1901_modern: everyone else uses code models, e.g. -mcmodel=tiny
<whitequark> a lot of architectures use linker relaxation...
<whitequark> x86 included
<sorear> and riscv will likely wind up with code models *too* because you need =large (>2GB executables)
<sorear> it also uses a quadradic time algorithm in the linker. I sent a sketch of a linear-time algorithm to them >year ago but I don't think it's been implemented
<bubble_buster> it's turning lui %hi(label); addi %lo(label) into just addi %lo(label) because high bits of label are 0
<bubble_buster> don't want my students to get confused when they write asm test programs and ld mucks them up
<sorear> pass -Wl,--no-relax to gcc
<cr1901_modern> sorear: medlow, medany?
<sorear> or put .option norelax in your .s file
<sorear> cr1901_modern: ikr
<cr1901_modern> I don't understand why you'd prefer one to the other. They both seem to have the same limitations
<bubble_buster> sorear: thank you
<bubble_buster> I thought I looked for "relax" in 'ld --help' but I think I only looked in 'as --help'
<rqou> bubble_buster: students? where? better not be $FANCY_SCHOOL :P
<bubble_buster> lol what's your cutoff for $FANCY_SCHOOL
<rqou> $FANCY_SCHOOL = Berkeley because whitequark was making fun of me
<bubble_buster> ah I wish
<bubble_buster> next best tho
<bubble_buster> I assume the TAs at Berkeley already have this figured out, we're just playing catch-up here at Illinois
<azonenberg_work> cpresser: awesome, excited to see how people do
<azonenberg_work> cpresser: in addition to feedback on the problems themselves i'd like feedback on the scoring
<azonenberg_work> Do the point values seem fair? Are some easier/harder than the point value would suggest?
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<cr1901_modern> whitequark: Didn't mean to imply that riscv was the only user of relaxation. The article made me think riscv is "special" in that (quote) "essentially no .text section symbol addresses are known until link time." >>
<cr1901_modern> And other archs, where .text section symbols are known before link time, can optimize reg-indirect calls/jumps into pc-rel at compile time.
<cr1901_modern> From what I;m reading tho, lots of binutils backends solve the "can this jump fit into pc-rel or not?" problem using relaxation.
<cr1901_modern> (And, thinking about it, shouldn't "essentially no .text section symbol addresses are known until link time." apply to all ld backends that use relaxation?)
<sorear> there are other targets where relaxation can add and remove bytes, but the best-known ones have, at most, length-preserving relaxations
<sorear> the _other_ annoying thing is that riscv .a/.o files are twice the size of other arches, because of all the extra (intra-segment) relocations
<sorear> x86 gcc generates .o files where relative branches are resolved, which means no reloc and no symbol
<cr1901_modern> I mean, afaik 32-bit (sic) doesn't have a meaningful pc-rel insn, so no opportunity for optimization for calls between translation units?
<azonenberg_work> cr1901_modern: in x86 there is pc-relative addressing if you cheat
<azonenberg_work> tl;dr call +1 byte; pop eax; mov destreg, [eax + offset]
<azonenberg_work> :p
<cr1901_modern> I'll pass
<sorear> when I say "x86" I mean all of 16, 32, and 64 bit unless specified otherwise
<cr1901_modern> lol
<azonenberg_work> i actually see that used in shellcode all the time
<cr1901_modern> anyways, sorear lemme hold that thought for later. I don't want to think tonight.
<azonenberg_work> in amd64 you can just do mov rax, [rip + 0xfeedface]
<azonenberg_work> although i dont know how big an offset you can do
<cr1901_modern> I'm sore from walking a lot today.
<cr1901_modern> "0xfeedface"
<sorear> it's signed 32-bit at the instruction level
<rqou> azonenberg_work: you don't actually want to do that
<cr1901_modern> sorear: Also, you may find this post relevant/"fun": https://www.planetvb.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?post_id=32384#forumpost32384
<cr1901_modern> (I don't know if this is length-changing. I'll have to check the v810 manual when I have a chance. But pretty sure turning a reg indirect to 26-bit pc-rel is length-changing)
<rqou> you'll mess up the return address predictor
<sorear> cr1901_modern: I specified "well-known" because I know it's used for some embedded targets; jimwilson knows more details
<sorear> what you want to do is what clang does for -fPIC, call a function that does "mov [esp], ebx; ret"
<sorear> amusingly
<sorear> ryzen's return stack predictor is documented to have special handling of CALL $+0
<sorear> i'm assuming special means "don't push anything", although other people on #riscv think it's fancier than that
<cr1901_modern> >what you want to do is what clang does for -fPIC, call a function that does "mov [esp], ebx; ret" Is this in reference to return addr predictor destruction?
<sorear> "mov ebx, [esp]; ret"
<sorear> sorry, mangled at&intel syntax
<sorear> at&tel? int&t?
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<fseidel> That's Motorolat to you :-P
<fseidel> *Motorotel
<cr1901_modern> Where can I find out more about "mov ebx, [esp]; ret" and why it works for "free PIC on 32-bit?"
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<sorear> hmm, is the behavior of that code not clear to you?
<cr1901_modern> mov dst, src; ret
<cr1901_modern> (or did you mean at&t syntax? :P)
<cr1901_modern> Forget it, my capacity for critical thinking is at like 5% tonight, I'm going to quit while I can still save face. Night folks :)
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<sorear> cheers ttyl
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<azonenberg_work> rqou: well i normally see that used in shellcode
<azonenberg_work> where perforance isnt a priority :p
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<rqou> goddammit freenode wat r u doin?
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<rqou> hey i have a dumb question: freenode is centrally controlled rather than federated -- why can't they develop server software that can be seamlessly upgraded without netsplits and dropped connections?
<rqou> i.e. build a "modern" chat app that just still speaks irc on the edge but is something custom internally
<sorear> they can't even get open proxy scanning on connect working with outside help, and other irc networks were doing that when I started using IRC in 2003
<sorear> s/with/without/
<rqou> why do they even have custom server software if it isn't good?
<rqou> also i just realized you can totally do a seamless upgrade even on a traditional federated irc network
<rqou> you just need to develop the software to plan for this from the start
<sorear> there's at least one ircd that does this
<sorear> i know this because they've whined about musl's dlclose implementation
<rqou> wat
<rqou> why is dlclose involved?
<sorear> they do updates by putting all of the logic in a shared library, then reloading it to update
<rqou> um... i guess you can do that
<sorear> as opposed to the systemd approach of serializing everything and then execve
<rqou> i would have done it that way
<sorear> i mostly agree
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<rqou> this approach only uses the boringest of features that basically every OS supports
<rqou> unlike using dlclose
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<awygle> that is a weird way to do that, yeah
<awygle> As much as I (currently) love shared libraries
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<sorear> otoh, I think it makes TLS “interesting”
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<rqou> which tls lol?
<rqou> thread local storage?
<rqou> afaik all current implementations leak it
<sorear> the other one :p
<rqou> oh huh i didn't think about how most TLS (the crypto) libraries don't have a "serialize all state" API
<whitequark> i thought they do
<whitequark> tls session resumption or sth
<rqou> session resumption isn't "all the state" though
<rqou> it's not enough for transparently picking up a connection that's still open
<rqou> iirc it's just enough information to skip the expensive asymmetric cryptography
<rqou> also this TLA collision sucks
<rqou> especially if you're weird like me and care about both
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<sorear> especially connections halfway through the handshake
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<rqou> wow github is starting to finally catch on: "If your school issues email addresses prior to paid student enrollment, or alumni and retired faculty have lifetime access, then we require further proof of your affiliation."
<azonenberg_work> rqou: lol
<rqou> can't be a student forever :P
<azonenberg_work> what so joe.schmoe@alumni.rpi.edu isn't a valid email for educational access?
<rqou> heh Berkeley (on the current system) doesn't even mark alumni accounts in any way
<rqou> unfortunately people like awygle that didn't want to deal with the CAA and/or roundcube lost access
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<rqou> in general I'm actually quite impressed how good Berkeley IT is at doing migrations
<rqou> although they were in general pretty overdue for upgrades since Berkeley apparently had some of the oldest infrastructure among universities
<rqou> *among US universities
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<gruetzkopf> my uni migrated from sun convergence to exchange in 2014 (and i'm still not impressed)
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<Zorix> i used to manage sun iplanet servers
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<pie__> shapr, apparently i missed some messages from you
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<awygle> hopefully telebears is no longer a modem in a closet pretending to be a touch tone phone
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<daveshah> On the subject of crowdfunding...
<daveshah> Somewhat interesting (and seems rather ambitious)
<tnt> for 22k$, yeah, that seems ambitious.
<daveshah> afaict they have no rtl for their i2c boot yet, and they plan to tape out in nov, which is a bit disconcerting
<daveshah> I suppose 22k$ would do the mpw, but adding packaging, pcbs, fulfilment and the risk of needing a second tapeout makes that seem hard to do
<tnt> "what could possibly go wrong" :)
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<rqou> awygle: they've finally managed to slay the telebear :P
<rqou> the course registration system whose shittiness has lasted literally for generations :P
<rqou> as in, there are nonzero cases of students complaining about it and the learning that their parents who also went to Berkeley had to use the same system
<whitequark> amazing
<rqou> hey, it was actually amazing when they first rolled it out
<rqou> Berkeley was one of the earliest universities that had a "modern" computerized course registration system that you could access with a TouchTone(TM) phone
<rqou> aaaand then the backend didn't significantly change for three decades
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<rqou> although it did gain a website eventually
<rqou> where you had a bunch of form fields that you had to input the same numbers that you would have input into the phone system
<rqou> if you input anything that wasn't a number like a space the system would break
<rqou> in unrelated news, C++ continues to be a disaster https://twitter.com/MerryMage/status/1033009557163978756?s=19
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<qu1j0t3> rqou: ever since helping my wife register for her courses in 2010 i've wondered why they are SO BAD
<gruetzkopf> i2c boot AAAAH
<gruetzkopf> i still need to do class registration for the next semester, let's see if new system is worse than vZPA
<rqou> apparently Berkeley actually did pretty well because they jumped from a "consistently dumb" essentially-phone system to a new thing
<rqou> unlike e.g. Cornell that got stuck on a Java abomination
<jn__> gruetzkopf: when's the deadline for class registrations?
<gruetzkopf> should be sometime in october
<gruetzkopf> (then again, EE deadlines are usually after the CS deadlines)
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<awygle> rqou: that tweet, while somewhat distressing, implies a level of sophistication that i didn't realize c++ possessed
<whitequark> c++ has fractal amounts of sophistication
<rqou> yeah right now c++ has basically everything
<whitequark> every time you think you're mostly done with it you discover a new way various its features unintentionally interact
<whitequark> and someone gave it a name like "curiously recurring template pattern"
<awygle> lol
<whitequark> or "Koenig lookup"
<whitequark> (not invented by Koenig, obviously.)
<whitequark> like ADL is how std::cout << x works, worse, ADL *exists* to make std::cout << x work, and it's a feature so hideous it took like decades before anyone has implemented it correctly
<rqou> i haven't read the spec myself but my housemate was claiming that the c++ spec at this point actually includes ~all the concepts of the Rust borrow/lifetime system. it's just that where Rust would give you an error C++ just gives you a UB ouroboros that deletes your program
<whitequark> christ. c++ has so much sophistication, you could tie it into a noose and hang yourself on it
<rqou> and/or gives you an exploit of course
<whitequark> and you probably will want to.
<whitequark> rqou: yep
<whitequark> Box<> is unique_ptr<>, and Arc<> is shared_ptr<>
<whitequark> and borrow/lifetime system is just how stack-allocated variables behave in C and C++
<awygle> yeah i mean i thought that was pretty much known. rust is just a lot more bondage-and-discipline about it.
<whitequark> i'd say c++ is
<whitequark> because c++ requires discipline
<awygle> whitequark: rust has discipline so you don't have to
<fseidel> people used to complain that the templates were turing complete, but at this point I'd wager the typesystem is too :-P
<awygle> (TM TM TM)
<whitequark> fseidel: I think Rust's is, too
<awygle> .... okay i don't know a _lot_ about BDSM, but i feel like i just implied that Rust puts programmers into sub space?
<fseidel> Rust seems interesting, but I've also heard it's borderline impossible to write a doubly linked list with decent performance in it, among other thing
<fseidel> s
<whitequark> fseidel: 1) that's bullshit 2) and it's also irrelevant
<rqou> the answer i usually hear for that is "why would you want that anyways"
<awygle> fseidel: i feel that this impression comes from people treating "unsafe" as "never use". it's hard (impossible?) to write a doubly linked list in safe rust, but it's easy in unsafe rust, which is fine.
<whitequark> it's bullshit because you can write anything in Rust that you can write in C++ and about as easily
<awygle> it's a marketing thing
<whitequark> you can write a DLL in safe rust in a variety of ways, which quickly expose the fact that a DLL is a useful data structure approximately never
<fseidel> okay, the only people I know who write Rust work at a company doing things where they have to write proofs about their code
<fseidel> because it's for flight safety
<fseidel> and they can't use it
<fseidel> maybe I'll give Rust a shot then
<whitequark> there's a DLL in the standard library anyway
<awygle> DO-178C doesn't require proofs, but ok
<whitequark> ... which is probably going to be deprecated because it turns out that a DLL isn't a fucking useful data structure
<whitequark> well i guess it's useful at interviews
<fseidel> it's not required, but the company makes them do it
<fseidel> at least, I think so, anyway, one of them was telling me this
<whitequark> it's not a bad idea
<fseidel> some sort of RTOS
<whitequark> but... if you're writing proofs anyway, why wouldn't you use unsafe?
<fseidel> you know, that's a really good question...
<fseidel> I should prod that dude and find out
<whitequark> you just need to prove a stronger statement about your code than what the rust type system can express
<awygle> i guess you only have to prove the unsafe bits. except that's not true, because behavior is _somewhat important_ to flight safety
<rqou> whitequark: what about the "mumble mumble intrusive list" part? :P
<whitequark> rqou: intrusive lists are definitely not one of Rust's strong points
<awygle> intrusive list is a great name
<whitequark> the current best solution is basically "use macros" and I'm not exactly happy about that
<whitequark> but I've never actually written any code that needs a single intrusive list, much less so many of them that I'd think about abstracting them out
<whitequark> so I have no idea how bad Rust would be for that sort of code anyway
<awygle> i used to use them on the msp430 a fair amount
<awygle> iirc chibios/nil uses an intrusive list of threads for its scheduler?
<whitequark> yeah but did you *need* to use them
<awygle> well, sorta, because i was porting an existing rtos
<awygle> i get your point though, yes
<rqou> btw my housemate claimed that they directly inspired the "mumble mumble kernel embedded" line of the "Learning Rust With Entirely Too Many Linked Lists" :P
<fseidel> hah
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<rqou> who does that?
<whitequark> rqou: which part exactly
<rqou> the "original food labels" part
<whitequark> oh some guy who died
<whitequark> second-hand story
<fseidel> holy shit, did someone seriously do that?
<whitequark> if i was to believe the person who told it to me, yeah
<rqou> "oh some guy who died" <-- how are you so nonchalant about this?
<whitequark> rqou: why wouldn't i be?
<whitequark> i don't even know his name. all i know was the mistake he made and the character of death (swift and certain)
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: do you know what was in the bottle? :p
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<azonenberg_work> First guess: incompletely purified meth
<azonenberg_work> (this sounds like the kind of thing that would happen in a drug lab)
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: don't think it was a drug lab
<azonenberg_work> Judging by how good drug cooks are at lab safety etc
<whitequark> some factory iirc
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* tnt recently had the issue that sodium hydroxide attacks PET :/
<rqou> oh yeah, how do meth labs all end up (being described as) massively contaminated?
<rqou> the procedure doesn't sound _that_ complicated
<gruetzkopf> doesn't help if you're on meth while doing it
<whitequark> tnt: PE for all the things
<whitequark> or PP
<whitequark> not PET
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<azonenberg_work> rqou: i think they just get residue all over the place
<rqou> or glass? (not so good for sodium hydroxide thought)
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<azonenberg_work> dont wear gloves, or do and dont wash their hands after
<azonenberg_work> etc
<azonenberg_work> spilling things on the ground
<tnt> whitequark: yeah, I just grabbed drink bottles I had on hand (and properly labelled them !). I did check it was OK for diluted Sulphuric acid and somehow didn't bother to check for NaOH.
<whitequark> rqou: i vaguely recall looking it up and apparently it was pretty bad
<whitequark> but i dont really feell like dredging it up again
<whitequark> i think it's something about the crude processes people have to employ in the us
<whitequark> like generate tons of bog standard low level chemical waste with no means to dispose
<rqou> but somehow US law enforcement really likes to play up how dangerous the waste is
<azonenberg_work> And the boobytraps
<azonenberg_work> :p
<azonenberg_work> Drug labs are notorious for that
<awygle> yeah one near my elementary school was trapped with nitroglycerin or something
<sorear> I feel like relatively few substances will provide a “swift and certain” death
<awygle> at any rate it exploded
<azonenberg_work> One technique i've heard of is to get a syringe and narrow gauge needle and squirt gasoline through the base of a standard incandescent light bulb
<azonenberg_work> When power is turned on the filament heats up, boils some of the gas
<azonenberg_work> the pressure ruptures the bulb, then boom fireball
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<gruetzkopf> brilliant
<rqou> heh that's pretty cute
<gruetzkopf> i have some NOS compensation caps that'll reliably explode ~3min after powerup :D
<whitequark> lol
<sorear> so _that’s_ why those things are being phased out everywhere
<qu1j0t3> haha
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<rqou> hmm looking into the illicit synthesis procedures none of them look that dangerous?
<rqou> are meth cooks just that bad at chemistry? :P
<florolf> rqou: re "having the irc network talk some different protocoll internally and only interface using the irc protocol": https://robustirc.net/
<sorear> gruetzkopf: some what nows?
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