ChanServ changed the topic of ##yamahasynths to: Channel dedicated to questions and discussion of Yamaha FM Synthesizer internals and corresponding REing. Discussion of synthesis methods similar to the Yamaha line of chips, Sound Blasters + clones, PCM chips like RF5C68, and CD theory of operation are also on-topic. Channel logs: https://freenode.irclog.whitequark.org/~h~yamahasynths
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<andlabs>
is there a secret store that sells only floppy drive bezels
<andlabs>
I can only find entire drives with or without bezel
<andlabs>
even with google
<cr1901_modern>
3d print one :P?
<andlabs>
if I could I'd have found that
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<Lord_Nightmare>
ej5: forth: where everything is a stack, except there's also a return stack, and fifos/mini-stacks.
<Lord_Nightmare>
its stacks all the way down
<Lord_Nightmare>
and ... honestly, I think its a pretty cool language
<Lord_Nightmare>
forth and lisp both force you to think in completely different ways about programming than is typical
<Sarayan>
LN: The problem with both is that their very different way of programming is also very not what current processors and memories like
<Sarayan>
It's hard to make them efficient
<superctr>
heh, Lisp is for those who like counting parentheses more than anything else, and Forth is for those who have never used a computer other than a HP calculator
<Sarayan>
? mean you do what .
<superctr>
HP calculators used RPN
<Sarayan>
I know that :-)
<Sarayan>
forth was interesting in that it was, interpreter included, more dense than an equivalent asm
<Sarayan>
hence some success for firmwares
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<andlabs>
[02:18:04] <Sarayan>It's hard to make them efficient
<andlabs>
never tell a lisp code rthat
<andlabs>
they will literally eat you
<andlabs>
I have a soft spot for forth tbh
<ej5>
it's all fun and games until you try to read the code
<andlabs>
forth is definitely easier to write structured programs in
<andlabs>
because it has actual if and while blocks that look like plain english
<andlabs>
with whitespace and what not
<andlabs>
my father used to use a chromebook and I wanted to port asileriot to a web page (it's a solitaire engine written in scheme with a C frontend)
<andlabs>
but now he uses windows so i should just install asileriotdirectly lol
<whitequark>
Sarayan: it's actually pretty easy to make a bytecode more dense than equivalent asm
<whitequark>
(or something bytecode-like)
<whitequark>
like, the usual reason to use bytecode, besides the ability to use some kind of jump table interpreter, is code density
<superctr>
portability i think is the biggest reason
<Sarayan>
wq: forth was the first one, I think where on scales of some kilobyts you could have more dense stuff interpreter included
<Sarayan>
even basic intepreters were usually around 8k at least, often 16
<Sarayan>
which is impressive given it was not particularly designed for that
<whitequark>
superctr: yup you're right, thanks for correcting me :)
<whitequark>
there's a bunch of equally good reasons
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<andlabs>
but how small can forth interpreters be?
<cr1901_modern>
smallest interpreter I know is SWEET16. Like 100 bytes?
<cr1901_modern>
It's also an order of magnitude slower than native
<superctr>
iirc sweet16 isn't complete though
<superctr>
it's more designed to complement the regular 6502 instructions
<cr1901_modern>
It still counts for me :P
<sorear>
I think this is mostly a matter of how hard you're going to lawyer "interpreter"
<cr1901_modern>
That's true. In the context of code density, Idk if SWEET16 was meant for increasing density, as opposed to convenience.
<sorear>
pretty sure it was
<sorear>
but 6502 baseline code density is kind of atrocious
<sorear>
the 1970s were a different time with different rules and as I said before I wish I understood half of it