ELLIOTTCABLE changed the topic of #elliottcable to: #softwaredevelopmentaccordingtoelliott
<devyn>
I was going to make a web-based administration panel with a shell for my server
<devyn>
I thought about using client certificates
<devyn>
but I think I'll just go with google authenticator + password
<purr>
<devyn> optimization is orgasmic
<devyn>
:D
<joelteon>
hmm
<joelteon>
I'm going to write a library of some kind for client certificates
<devyn>
to do what
<joelteon>
for yesod authentication I supposed
<joelteon>
suppose
<joelteon>
present tense
<devyn>
ok just make sure you don't expose any timing attacks or anything lol
<purr>
lol
<joelteon>
i don't know how to not do that
<joelteon>
maybe i'll research it
<devyn>
most important thing is: don't do any of your own crypto
<joelteon>
nah i won't
<joelteon>
but
<joelteon>
i'm not sure if using an HTTP header as authentication is bad
<joelteon>
since it'll be set by nginx and can't be overridden by the user...maybe
<joelteon>
maybe I won't make this into a library
<devyn>
Kerberos does that so it's fine, but client certificates are under HTTP/application-level
<devyn>
handled by SSL itself
<joelteon>
yeah
<joelteon>
i know
<devyn>
so you really shouldn't ever need to do that...
<joelteon>
i'm assuming people are using a reverse proxy for this
<joelteon>
because
<joelteon>
it's optional
<joelteon>
people can still use https if they don't have a certificate
<joelteon>
tehy're just not "logged in'
<joelteon>
"
<joelteon>
"
<devyn>
oh I see what you mean
<joelteon>
they're just not "logged in"
<devyn>
with a reverse proxy
<joelteon>
yeah
<devyn>
that would complicate things
<devyn>
you definitely could just send the certificate as a header though
<joelteon>
well nginx has it built-in for example
<joelteon>
it's insanely easy
<devyn>
as long as user headers can't override it
<joelteon>
why would it matter if they can override it
<joelteon>
if it's the wrong certificate they can't log in
<devyn>
because nginx would be the one verifying the cert and decrypting
<devyn>
if you just trust that
<devyn>
then the user could override
<devyn>
and forge
<joelteon>
forge a request to where the upstream is listening on?
<devyn>
I'm just saying that nginx *must* set that header
<joelteon>
yeah i agree
<devyn>
if the user sends a req to the reverse proxy with X-Client-Certificate or whatever
<devyn>
that shouldn't make it through
<joelteon>
it's either NONE or SUCCESS
<devyn>
it should be overridden
<joelteon>
then DN or whatever is passed too
<devyn>
...well your application needs to know which certificate it was
<joelteon>
right
<joelteon>
yeah what i'm saying is
<joelteon>
"X-Client-Verified" is *always* passed by nginx
<joelteon>
and I guess X-Client-DN actually is too
<joelteon>
so it's fine
<devyn>
sorry what's X-Client-DN
<joelteon>
that's the certificate metadata
<joelteon>
common name, etc.
<devyn>
oh okay
<devyn>
yeah
<joelteon>
i don't even think chrome supports client certificates
<devyn>
it does
<devyn>
I've used them
<joelteon>
well what am i doing wrong
<joelteon>
i wonder
<devyn>
if you're on OS X then your certificate *must* be in Keychain Access
<devyn>
registered to that website
<devyn>
I think
<devyn>
maybe not the last part
<joelteon>
well it works on safari
<devyn>
hmm
<joelteon>
so the preference exists
<devyn>
so then what happens in Chrome
<joelteon>
400 bad request from nginx
<joelteon>
sec
<joelteon>
oh shit
<joelteon>
i had to restart chrome
<joelteon>
oh no
<joelteon>
it didn't work anyway
<joelteon>
>_>
<joelteon>
"No required SSL certificate was sent"
<joelteon>
which doesn't mean it's the wrong cert, it means chrome didn't sendi t
<devyn>
hmm
<joelteon>
I'll ask the internet
<joelteon>
that's what I always do
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<devyn>
god Star Citizen is impressive
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<joelteon>
ok that wasn't so bad
<joelteon>
I started up our production app and evaluated Symbol.all_symbols.length
<joelteon>
52,006
<devyn>
ahaha
<devyn>
lately I've started using #count for collections of things instead
<devyn>
makes more sense to me
<devyn>
than length
<devyn>
just an alias though
<joelteon>
i wish ruby didn't have so many exact duplicate method names
<devyn>
>Its the funny Russian concept of "Добровольный!принудительный" aka voluntary-compulsory. You don't HAVE to go, but someone will be keeping a list of who does.
<prophile>
and just use your CLI programs natively
<devyn>
I saw that, but really I'd only want the terminal emulator part
<devyn>
the whole point is to get access to my server
<prophile>
install ssh :D
<devyn>
hahaha
<devyn>
that would take forever
<devyn>
and I don't know whether it even has net access
<prophile>
actually I suspect it would install reasonably quickly
<prophile>
the lack of net access would be the real problem, yeah
<devyn>
and no persistence so I'd have to set it up again every time... unless I can make an image and host it somehow
<devyn>
anyway that would just be ridiculous, so no
<devyn>
not doing that
<devyn>
:p
<prophile>
I had a kernel panic in the browser once
<prophile>
I love being able to say that phrase with a straight face
<devyn>
haha
<devyn>
now ideally I'd just do this in <canvas> and have it working in 5 minutes, but that wouldn't allow text selection or good text rendering
<devyn>
so, ridiculous numbers of <span>s it is then
<devyn>
:p
<prophile>
you could do it in SVG
<devyn>
can you select text in SVG in web browsers?
<prophile>
yup
<devyn>
hmm
<devyn>
nah I'll just do spans
<devyn>
haha I love Wikipedia's comment on SGR=20
<devyn>
SGR=20: Fraktur. hardly ever supported
<devyn>
why would terminals have fraktur support
<devyn>
why
<joelteon>
that's awesome
<prophile>
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
wat
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hi
<purr>
ELLIOTTCABLE: hi!
<devyn>
I talked to her. understandably she seems pretty sad.
<devyn>
think I'll just leave her alone for a few days
<devyn>
or until she starts talking to me again
<devyn>
on her own
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I feel so ill.
<devyn>
ELLIOTTCABLE: you said you've had a bad week. what happened?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Nothing in particular. My emotional state and stability have been steadily downhill for a while, now. Month, several months, of ‘bad weeks.’
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Harder to count or track the bad days. Pretty easy to track the good ones. They've been rare, recently.
<devyn>
life is shitty sometimes. I too haven't really felt myself lately
<devyn>
starting to realize how important it is to go out and spend time with people once there aren't really as many pressures for that to happen externally
<devyn>
two of my best friends are off far away, so I can't really hang out with them
<devyn>
and one is just so busy that she doesn't talk to me very often
<devyn>
(that one is not of the two; she still lives here)
<devyn>
I'm starting to make some more friends at college
<joelteon>
i'm really really bad at making friends
<devyn>
I think I'm just not all that interested in most people
<devyn>
maybe that doesn't matter, but I just can't put up with superficial crap
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'm really on the rocks with my bff and/or ex. Shit's hard, and not going well.
<alexgordon>
hi ELLIOTTCABLE
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
And the way I'm feeling about it all, *makes* me feel even worse. I feel like I'm a horrible person, on a daily basis. Pretty depressed, no motivation to do anything.
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE :(
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
To boot, I haven't found anything that really excites me or motivates me, since I got bored of trying to pretend to be a good programmer.
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: real life getting you down?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
At the very least, I would *get out of bed* in the morning (metaphorically. laptop!) when I wanted to work on Paws every dya.
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: help me with furrow!
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Now I have fuck-all to do, and the only thing that gets me out of bed, after hours of Kindle-reading or Hulu-watching, is the dogs getting antsy and making me worried they'll piss on my floor if I don't drag myself out of bed and take them out.
<devyn>
I know, all day I've been feeling like that because I'm not really sure how to support people who are going through difficult things, and am afraid that the best answer is just "leave them alone"
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: and/or fuck things
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
wat
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
help you fuck things?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I don't even know what you look like.
<devyn>
help alexgordon to fuck things?
<devyn>
lol
<purr>
lol
<alexgordon>
no
<alexgordon>
I don't need help :P
<devyn>
WELL YOU'VE GOT MY HELP ANYWAY
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I picture you as extremely ascetically thin and lanky, maybe 6'2" and 63 kilos, with freckles and bright red hair.
<devyn>
>:D
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
long, unkempt, bright red hair.
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: hahaha
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: no.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
so, in response, no, alex, I want no part of your threesome.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
also you're old.
<devyn>
ELLIOTTCABLE: that's closer to me except I'm not as tall and not a redhead, also no freckles :/
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: pretty sure you have no idea what I look like then
<prophile>
it's close to me except I'm actually a 900ft crustacean from the paleolithic era
<devyn>
lol
<alexgordon>
I think we established that I look like someone from the arctic monkeys
<alexgordon>
although never having seen the arctic monkeys I can neither confirm or deny these rumours
<joelteon>
and apparently not having access to google image search
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I've got a musician doppelganger, too.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Can't remember who it is, but it's creepy. Been reminded twice; once in high-school, and once about a year ago.
<alexgordon>
joelteon: good idea. I guess the resemblance isn't that strong really
<alexgordon>
but I don't have red hair
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
OH MY GOD HE'S THE DUDE IN THE BACK
<alexgordon>
although my hair isn't _that_ long. is it? maybe it is
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Alex Factoid #312: His eyes are glowing, featureless white orbs.
<alexgordon>
O_O
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Alex Factoid #312.b: Aforementioned eyes are also pixelated.
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: anyway I was suggesting that _you_ fuck something, not me
<alexgordon>
surely one cannot be bored of fucking
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Eh. That's actually pretty much my life story, right now. About the only thing that makes me feel valuable, skilled, or worthwhile, is sex.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yes I know exactly how unhealthy that sounds.
<alexgordon>
sounds healthy to me
<devyn>
lol
<purr>
lol
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: what is the meaning of life, if not fucking?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
creativity
<alexgordon>
express it through fucking!
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
meaning of *life* is reproduction. We're humans. We do a fuckton more than reproduce. That's sort of what makes us valuable and unique.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Any animal can make babies. *Humans* can give those babies iPhones.
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: ok then, the meaning of life is happiness. decide what makes you happy, and structure your life around it
<joelteon>
I have devyn on facebook
<devyn>
so does ELLIOTTCABLE
<devyn>
what, did you think you were special, joelteon
<devyn>
:)
<joelteon>
no
<alexgordon>
is that you devyn?
<devyn>
alexgordon: it is
<joelteon>
i'm one of the few people on earth that has facebook
<alexgordon>
devyn: surreal
<alexgordon>
devyn: I'm still going to imagine you as the word "devyn", in blue
<devyn>
hahaha
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
joelteon: wat.
<purr>
beep.
<devyn>
hahah
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: personally I enjoy writing code more than even sex, although that may be because I'm not very good at the latter
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I actually agree.
<devyn>
idk, my job has taken a bit of enjoyment out of it I think
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
But code has stopped *fulfilling* me. It's very … social, for me; and at some point, years later than it should have, it actually got through my thick skull that nobody except me *likes* my code.
<alexgordon>
devyn: programming, like sex, is no fun if you're doing it for someone else
<devyn>
...yeah, that makes sense
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
That moment, it really stopped fulfilling me, stopped driving me. I've been in a bit of a lurch, since, trying to figure out what to do with my time.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
disagree *immensely*
<alexgordon>
devyn: actually that's linus' joke isn't it
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
anybody who *doesn't* do sex for somebody else, is bad at sex. ddis
<devyn>
that is also true
<devyn>
I wasn't saying he was right about that part
<devyn>
:p
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: I was thinking more along the lines of doing it for a pimp, but whatever
<alexgordon>
"Software is like sex; it's better when it's free"
<devyn>
idk, I think if you asked prostitutes some would probably say they do it because they enjoy it
<devyn>
as long as they're in comfortable situations in life
<alexgordon>
devyn: damn you canada
<joelteon>
good ones make fucking shittons of money
* alexgordon
has never seen nor met a prostitute
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I've known several intimately.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
er,
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
not in the way that implies.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
like, friendships.
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: you truly are House
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
then again, I knew a *lot* of … disadvantaged people, in my time in NC.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I am the least Housey thing possible
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I won't touch any sort of drugs, and my posse of followers neither competed for positions, nor are they paid to do whatever I say.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
the moment I get hooked on opioids and you all start working for me, we can talk.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
actually, related:
<alexgordon>
also, alcohol is a drug yo
<devyn>
alexgordon: but I mean think about it, you're a hot girl who enjoys sex a lot, and you can get paid lots of money by only the wealthiest customers to do it
<devyn>
sounds like a good gig if you're into that kind of thing
<alexgordon>
devyn: fat old men
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
glowcoil: when you off for summer? I'd like to “come back” and take one more concerted stab at Paws before I get too deep into other interests / forget everything I know about computers.
<devyn>
alexgordon: money
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
ditto alexgordon
<devyn>
alexgordon: and it's still sex
<alexgordon>
devyn: fat old men
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
who says you have to say yes to the fat old men?
<devyn>
that's true too
<devyn>
if you're not struggling for money
<devyn>
you can choose who you serve
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
in reality, there's a *very* large number of rich, reasonably attractive men (of all ages) who live a lifestyle addicted to easy sex.
<alexgordon>
interesting
<alexgordon>
well, you'd know
<devyn>
hahahaha
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
ones that don't have the knowledge, or the desire, to *work* to get laid: to maintain a relationship at this point in their lives, or even to try and play the game involved in netting one night stands.
<devyn>
honestly I can't really imagine ELLIOTTCABLE being into prostitutes
<alexgordon>
nah me neither
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
you don't have to be *physically unable to net someone of the opposite sex*, for a prostitute to be your go-to.
<alexgordon>
devyn: he's far too thrifty
<devyn>
alexgordon: crack whores it is
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
actually, …
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I mean, there was Angela. She sort of looked like one.
<devyn>
lol
<purr>
lol
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<alexgordon>
how the hell did we get on to talking about hookers?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
blame devyn. I usually do.
<devyn>
actually, it was alexgordon
<alexgordon>
it was?
<devyn>
but I admit it's usually my fault
<alexgordon>
oh right, it was
<devyn>
19:03:55 <+alexgordon> ELLIOTTCABLE: I was thinking more along the lines of doing it for a pimp, but whatever
<devyn>
that started it
<devyn>
:p
<joelteon>
it's amazing how much french i don't speak
<devyn>
joelteon: it's amazing how much you don't know
<devyn>
I mean really humans
<devyn>
get it together
<alexgordon>
joelteon: yeah, or mandarin
<joelteon>
the amount of french i don't know borders on 100%
<devyn>
the amount of things I don't know comes very close to 100% too
<alexgordon>
I don't even know a _single_ word of the most spoken language in the world
<alexgordon>
how sad is that
<devyn>
alexgordon: not even ni hao, or xie xie?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Microscopes are fuckin' cool, yo.
<alexgordon>
devyn: nope, what does that mean?
<devyn>
alexgordon: ni hao = hello. xie xie = thank you
<alexgordon>
devyn: thanks, now I'm not so ignorant - until I forget that
<joelteon>
oh I knew ni hao
<joelteon>
phew!
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon, glowcoil, devyn.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
talk to me real quick.
<devyn>
'kay
<devyn>
hi
<purr>
devyn: hi!
<alexgordon>
lol
<purr>
lol
<devyn>
<3 purr
<purr>
Let it be known that devyn hearts purr.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
<3 purr
<purr>
Let it be known that ELLIOTTCABLE hearts purr.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
#bandwagon
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
So. you down for a month's concerted work on Paws, at its final state of design?
<devyn>
ELLIOTTCABLE: I'll have to be brought up to date, but sure, I could go for that
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Frankly, I don't have the energy, or desire, to evangelize, or keep working on it as an overall project. But I *would* like to walk away from this field as a whole with one final product.
<devyn>
ELLIOTTCABLE: and can you pleeeease try to use actual CS terms this time? :p
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
the current spec does, afaik
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
work to be done there, and code to be written.
<devyn>
'kay, where is it
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
er
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
-spec @ devyn
<purr>
devyn: Paws' half-arsed Version 10 specification <http://ell.io/ihQzs>
<devyn>
awesome
<devyn>
thanks
<devyn>
I'll read it
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: thing is, it's not well spec'd enough for someone to make an implementation
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but don't worry about that right now. Zero desire to talk Paws itself at this particular moment.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Just want to figure out a time I can drag you three into one place for a month or so.
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: so I don't see how it could be finished without motivation on your part
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: oh, I do have motivation. I meant *tonight*.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
not to mention that glowcoil's understanding has always been pretty complete, afaict.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
He's got other directions he wants to go with it, but hey, if I weren't involved, then I don't see why he couldn't do that.
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: I'm intending on taking a holiday soon, since I'm 90% burnt out
<devyn>
ELLIOTTCABLE: I mean it's a bit difficult since I've got work and school every day and I'm only around fairly late in the evening
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: we should all meet up in hong kong or somewhere and hack on paws ;)
<devyn>
ELLIOTTCABLE: I can do my best though
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
devyn: aren't you out of school for the summer at some point? that's what I was assuming.
<devyn>
maybe, if I don't take a summer term
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: hong kong loolwat
<devyn>
still not sure about that
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
come to the U.S. I'm down to spend a month or something in the Bay Area, or wherever you'd want to hang. :P
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: they drive on the left
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
or you could come to Chicago, fuck knows why.
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: nah I want to go to hong kong. it's a nice city
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
really?
<devyn>
I don't really get that much vacation from work... if I asked they might let me come back after a month with no pay I guess
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
isn't that in China, or some such place where everybody's basically still a barbarian? :P
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: nah, used to be british until ~15 years ago
<devyn>
alexgordon: you do not want to work on anything in hong kong. it's humid and hot as fuck all the time
<devyn>
also it's like half nice buildings and half ghettos
<devyn>
side by side
<devyn>
source: friends from hong kong
<alexgordon>
devyn: sure if you live there
<devyn>
we're talking like 40's though with 100% humidity
<devyn>
it's like India
<alexgordon>
I know... I survived summer in london 2013 ;)
<devyn>
so why the hell would you want to put yourself through that intentionally?
<devyn>
:P
<alexgordon>
devyn: it was fine if you had aircon
<alexgordon>
which nobody does here
<devyn>
same here
<devyn>
we have a pretty temperate climate
<devyn>
-3 ~ 28 most years
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
no A/C!?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'm from *Alaska* and everyone had A/C.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
jesus.
<devyn>
wtf why would you need A/C in Alaska
<prophile>
just in case
<alexgordon>
o_O
<devyn>
I mean, we had an air conditioner, but we sold it because we didn't really need it
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: summer starts in like, may I think
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
somebody slap glowcoil in the nutsack, unless he's hungover
<devyn>
hahsajhdkljashda
<devyn>
right
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
oh. speak of the devil
<devyn>
as you said that
<devyn>
hahaha
<devyn>
ELLIOTTCABLE: your spec is wonderfully formal. I am enjoying it.
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: i feel like the *most* important part of paws is specificying the networks of dependencies that make up a program, and viewing programs as fundamentally, on the bottom-up level, sequences of dynamic-language-style bytecodes, is a mistake, I feel
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: like Hands would be made up of a lot of micah's favorite things, like beautiful multiple dispatch/semantic datatypes + cool module/program partitioning things, as well as lots of cool generator-comprehension-style things
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: and so that's not really the design you would choose for Paws
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: but either way, I feel like the basic syntax of Paws is in the wrong direction
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: we can go with everything's-a-hash dynamic language shit, and no-syntax-shit, as long as we make our statement-level syntax fundamentally reflective of Paws' paradigm
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I didn't understand much of that :P
<glowcoil>
ok so you know how Paws is so heavily influence from Io
<glowcoil>
and shit
<glowcoil>
like
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
statement-level syntax?
<glowcoil>
nothing-is-there dynamic languages
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
no i got that part
<glowcoil>
whereas Hands would be a more Micah-ish thing
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I meant, the bytecodes? what?
<glowcoil>
but yeah like
<glowcoil>
in Paws you view a program as
<glowcoil>
a sequence of expressions
<glowcoil>
evaluated sequentially
<glowcoil>
and I think that's a big mistake
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
ahhhhhh
<glowcoil>
<3 port blue
<purr>
Let it be known that glowcoil hearts port blue.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
we talked a bit about this a looooong time ago.
<glowcoil>
yeah
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<glowcoil>
I think it's literally the *most* important thing to discuss about paws rn
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
basically, you're looking for an evolution of what we once talked about and I discareded
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
the diagonal evaluation thing, yah?
<glowcoil>
yeah
<glowcoil>
like
<glowcoil>
we can have a thing that's not hacky, that's perfectly semantic and intentional
<glowcoil>
and still isn't weird
<glowcoil>
but this will inform any "cPaws" implementations or whatever
<glowcoil>
as well as anything above that
<glowcoil>
like, we can build whatever type system/OO system/insanities/whatever on top of this
<glowcoil>
but to make a nanopaws this is still necessary and important
<glowcoil>
also, I feel like we should make scope and names less Io-style
<glowcoil>
just because name binding is the way to create a network
<glowcoil>
two statements in a row, <- is a function or method or w/e
<glowcoil>
and then name is a ghost or whatever that print blocks on when trying to use it
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
wat
<glowcoil>
or whatever
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
fuck me, I don't even remember Paws' nominal syntax :x
<glowcoil>
this is not it
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I remember there being arrows or something that everybody I hated?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
oh, that's not what you're talking 'bout. k.
<glowcoil>
yeah you wanted to use unicode harpoons for assignment
<glowcoil>
but tha'ts not important here
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
oh k
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
go on
<glowcoil>
so basically we're doing everything as sequences of expressions in a row, that sometimes block
<glowcoil>
what I want is like
<glowcoil>
make name-binding explicitly part of the syntax
<glowcoil>
so the parser knows about <- or whatever
<glowcoil>
what I want is:
<glowcoil>
in the end, the ordering of statements doesn't matter
<glowcoil>
unless we have some kind of construct
<glowcoil>
where internall they do
<glowcoil>
like a seq-block
<glowcoil>
or whatever
<glowcoil>
but so you have to explicitly say when something blocks on something else's return value or completion
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
so, lots of Haskellness
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I *hate* that /=
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but, that said, I see the why, and the appeal.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
just a personal thing.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
thought:
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
this would be something **fucking great** to explore something less textual, with.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
fuck name-binding, make it actual-value-binding. Some sort of visual editor (three dismensional, for shits 'n giggles?), where actual code / snippets / functions / modules / object-definitions, whatever, are linked to the places they're used, without a name acting as an intermediary
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
then those linkages are what also control evaluation-order and concurrency and dependance, in the interpreter
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
er, runtime
<prophile>
Haskell is > j00
<joelteon>
what's j00
<devyn>
you in 13375p34k
<joelteon>
oh
<joelteon>
i thought it was a version of J
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
glowcoil: I getcha.
<joelteon>
which didn't make any sense
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I definitely see the appeal. I don't know, talk real syntax to me?
<joelteon>
they're for different purposes
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'm happy to help with Hands in any way that you want me to, by the way.
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Doubt I can *code* up to your standards, but I obviously now have three years' background in brainstorming and cutting through bullshit ideas to make a usable language. For whatever *that's* worth, I'm here if you want me. (=
<glowcoil>
turned out to sound like shitty filter automated buildups in like fuckin
<glowcoil>
bigroom house
<glowcoil>
or fuckin trance
<glowcoil>
;_;
<glowcoil>
I've worked on this song too long today
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
… he says, as I'm listening to Avicii.
<devyn>
alexgordon: well anyway imagine you're trying to transmit energy by pumping water... the point isn't to supply water though, it's to supply energy; the water just goes through a turbine and right back to the power station
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
10PM on a Sunday too late to have my subs on?
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: lol yeah
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: not a big fan tbh
<devyn>
alexgordon: that's kind of why there are two wires. electrons work that way, kinda
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I've got my timing *down* for the rest of the week, but Sundays throw me.
<alexgordon>
devyn: does it?
<alexgordon>
this isn't direct current, it's alternating
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
It's the weekend, but other people are probably trying to get to sleep for work on Monday, right? or are nursing hangovers from Saturday night?
<glowcoil>
I want to make melancholy cyberpunk future garage
<glowcoil>
not bigroom house
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
so idffk what the subwoofer etiquette is here.
<prophile>
AC vs DC doesn't make any difference actually
<devyn>
alexgordon: well idk anything about alternating as I said
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
as usual, if I don't have definitive arguments otherwise … the answer is always crank 'em up to 11. <3
<devyn>
I would assume it would be similar
<alexgordon>
devyn: lol but that's what we use
<devyn>
yeah I know :p
<prophile>
take a snapshot at a particular point in time and there will be net flow
<prophile>
and the amount of current going into any particular part of a circuit is always exactly matched by the current coming out of it
<devyn>
I guess the idea behind AC is that it just changes direction back and forth, yes?
<prophile>
(kirchhoff's current law)
<glowcoil>
OH i know what to do
<prophile>
devyn: sinusoidally, yes
<devyn>
yeah
<devyn>
I thought so
<glowcoil>
not automating a low pass cutoff
<glowcoil>
automating the dry-wet on a reverb!
<glowcoil>
or just
<devyn>
prophile: so then is it just because that wave isn't quite perfect and you still get electrons accumulating too much?
<glowcoil>
only-reverb for a while
<devyn>
or something?
<glowcoil>
then reverb-and-original
<glowcoil>
i can also apply some like
<glowcoil>
vinyl distortion for more distance
<glowcoil>
what do you all think
<glowcoil>
vinyl distortion is my new favorite effect
<glowcoil>
:p
<prophile>
it's nothing to do with the wave being imperfect - even a perfect wave still obeys kirchhoff's current law
* glowcoil
gets food
<prophile>
this is conservation of charge
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
glowcoil: re: business, you're talking about the summer, yes?
<devyn>
prophile: ...okay, still not really sure why that makes it so we can't just use one wire
<prophile>
because the current at the end of the wire has to "go somewhere"
<prophile>
also because electrical potential is all relative
<prophile>
and you need voltage to provide any power, so the voltage has to be relative to something
<devyn>
ah, and you can't just have something that instantly has a potential indefinitely
<prophile>
just so
<devyn>
I see then
<prophile>
you _could_ use the earth of course
<prophile>
and in that circumstance you actually can use one wire - only it's not really one wire because your current is returning to the source through the earth
<prophile>
and this causes bush fires in australia
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Is it worth me finding my laptop while drinker.?
<devyn>
I'm not sure about the two low beats
<devyn>
but other than that it's excellent
<devyn>
good job glowcoil
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: sure, it's definitely the biggest thing I've made :p
<glowcoil>
devyn: what two low beats?
<devyn>
like when it's like bom-bom
<glowcoil>
in the beginning?
<devyn>
lol
<purr>
lol
<devyn>
yes, it repeats a few times
<glowcoil>
like before everything has come in?
<devyn>
no
<devyn>
no
<devyn>
well
<devyn>
before any snare
<glowcoil>
yeah i was just questioning that myself
<glowcoil>
i'll probably keep it to one at a time or at least much fewer double-hits
<glowcoil>
for that part
<glowcoil>
i'm really happy because i have a lot of direction for where it's going to go
<glowcoil>
some voices are going to come in in the main part
<glowcoil>
slowly evolving and adding elements
<glowcoil>
eventually i have these particular forms of distortion that sound really really cool that will build and build on the drums and the chords and the bass
<glowcoil>
as well as vinyl crackle and shit
<glowcoil>
and then it will just build and build until it disintegrates
<glowcoil>
and then have like, rain
<glowcoil>
and like melancholy glowing chords
<glowcoil>
for a short ending
<glowcoil>
lol
<purr>
lol
<glowcoil>
:p
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Hi
<purr>
ELLIOTTCABLE: hi!
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I like butts
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
A lot.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I like butts more than code, and I like code a lot. #drunkgrammer
<devyn>
too bad alexgordon is no longer here
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<purr>
<elliottcable> “I dropped a lot of Reddit in college. I still shudder when I see an arrow.”
<glowcoil>
literally about to throw up at the comments
<glowcoil>
so many fucking white male libertarian hackers
<glowcoil>
unironically quoting ayn rand
<glowcoil>
agghh making music is hard
<purr>
<IamTash> what's klined, hobbits?
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<purr>
<elliottcable> IT WAS AN ARDUOUS TASK ... BUT I HAVE FOUND PORN INVOLVING CLOACAS.
<whitequark>
glowcoil: well he does have a few points
<whitequark>
omg wtf so much backlog
<whitequark>
so
<whitequark>
devyn: "voluntary-compulsory" yeah, a lot of such self-contradictory statements as USSR legacy and sometimes just as very russian things in general
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: your grounding setup is fine
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: what exactly do you want to CNC?
<whitequark>
an internal combustion engine? that is... very hard to be honest
<whitequark>
you need to ensure that your CNC can indeed cut the material you want to use... aluminum?
<whitequark>
you need to understand the physics which makes an engine work
<whitequark>
you need then to apply the physics considering the limitation of your machine, i.e. a tiny working area
<whitequark>
then using all that, you need to design one in a CAD. that's prolly the easiest part.
<whitequark>
after you design one in a CAD, again keeping with the limitations of your machine--that it has 3 axes; industrial CNCs used for same purpose use 5 axes--you need to generate a toolpath for that
<whitequark>
CAM (generating toolpath) is one of the hardest ever parts of such machining task, at least for me, because it's hugely dependent on a lot of factors, it includes a lot of math and time investment (if you poke the CAM software itself), and if you get it wrong you either break your tool/workpiece or just get result of unsatisfactory quality with very little explanation of *why* it is fucked up
<whitequark>
I've tried to write a dead simple CAM recently, for milling stencils for producing silkscreen on boards. it's like trying to tackle a type inferencer after you wrote a hello world in pythong
<whitequark>
note that none of the above even includes the *combustion* part, that's just what you'd need to make a useless model with a rotating axle and opening/closing valves
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: start with cutting tiny cylinders out of your material, that'll teach you *a lot* about machining with your tooling
<whitequark>
don't forget about proper endmills. buy a bunch (you'll break them a lot) of carbide TiAlN coated endmills
<whitequark>
really unsure which diameter would suit your machine. 1mm is the smallest non-superthin (superthin = $$$ and LOTS of breakage) cutter I could find
<whitequark>
but it may well be above what your machine can accomodate
<joelteon>
ok, I found the BEST combination of enchantments in minecraft
<joelteon>
unbreaking 3, efficiency 4, and fortune 2
<joelteon>
i mined an emerald ore and got 3 emeralds out of it
<whitequark>
glowcoil: more specifically, like, I don't deny that there is a rather huge problem in western tech scene--that would be absurd--and I don't quite like all of his post
<whitequark>
but I find it also patently clear that quite a few social movements are created not out of necessity to correct injustice, but rather of a necessity to belong to a cohesive group and having a worthwhile cause to fight for
<whitequark>
in other words, bored white middle class men and women feel they need to do something.
<whitequark>
eco* and green* are usually a good indicator, but there are others
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<purr>
<prophile> "love truncheon"
<whitequark>
e.g. think about all the "lowering carbon footprint of your family" fashion: not only it is insignificant globally, but is also strictly a game for the rich
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<glowcoil>
whitequark: sure yeah i'll agree some things don't really help and are done to feel better
<glowcoil>
whitequark: but in that post, he dismisses basically all feminism and social justice
<glowcoil>
whitequark: on principle
<whitequark>
glowcoil: I would phrase "are useless or actively detrimental to the issue by distracting and confusing those not being actively engaged in it"
<whitequark>
rather than "don't help and are done to feel better".
<glowcoil>
whitequark: sure but I wouldn't say that's a way in which you *agree* with the post
<glowcoil>
whitequark: the post sees those unproductive/distractive things, but he gives the same criticism to actively helpful and productive things
<glowcoil>
which is *more* harmful than those unproductive/distractive things
<whitequark>
I see what you mean
<whitequark>
yeah ok, I probably don't agree with esr and he's quite a bit more venomous than he should have been
<whitequark>
nor do I agree with armchair social justice though
<whitequark>
*shrug*
<purr>
¯\(º_o)/¯
<glowcoil>
i feel like even armchair social justice does a small nonnegative good in the world
<glowcoil>
by spreading the ideas
<glowcoil>
and if you say that it's actively harmful to people being convinced, that's bullshit
<joelteon>
oh that article is excellent
<glowcoil>
no matter how fucking immaculate your social justice PR strategy is, people will be actively angry at it
<glowcoil>
and fucking assassinate you
<glowcoil>
joelteon: in what way...?
<whitequark>
glowcoil: not all ideas are worth spreading. it is sad when people become actively hostile to an entire movement after interacting with mainly its most radical and loud parts
<joelteon>
glowcoil: it's accurate and succinct
<whitequark>
ie, I've seen people seriously equating "feminism" with "radical feminism"
<joelteon>
also i'm a fan of the prose
<glowcoil>
joelteon: it's not at all accurate
<whitequark>
which basically are only similar in their name
* whitequark
assumes joelteon is trolling
<joelteon>
that's never a safe assumption
<whitequark>
no, but it conserves my brain cells
<glowcoil>
every paragraph is filled with fallacious phrasing
<glowcoil>
like, phrasing painting its subjects as Others
<whitequark>
glowcoil: don't feed
<glowcoil>
appealing to inherent social biases in the reader
<joelteon>
the comments are bad though
<joelteon>
i'll agree with that
<joelteon>
swings too far in the other direction
<joelteon>
but he's right about the whole oppression olympics thing
<glowcoil>
the comments are gag inducing
<glowcoil>
but the post itself is not much better
<glowcoil>
from someone who styles himself as such a logical person
<joelteon>
yeah, cognitive dissonance will do that to you
<glowcoil>
so
<glowcoil>
The most conspicuous thing is that these women ooze “privilege” from every pore. All of them, not just the white upper-middle-class academics but the putatively “oppressed” blacks and transsexuals and what have you. It’s the privilege of living in a society so wealthy and so indulgent that they can go years – even decades – without facing a reality check.
<glowcoil>
so apparently blacks and transsexuals
<glowcoil>
transsexuals who get beaten to death
<glowcoil>
and not even talked about as human
<glowcoil>
blacks who get *systematically* stopped-and-frisked
<glowcoil>
who are systematically targeted by the war on drugs
<glowcoil>
like
<glowcoil>
fucking white well to do straight male libertarian ESR
<glowcoil>
has never experienced any of these things
<glowcoil>
so he can entirely dismiss them
<glowcoil>
like that's such a fundamentally shitty paragraph i don't know where to begin
<joelteon>
yeah, sucks that the act of skepticism invalidates his opinion
<joelteon>
poor guy
<joelteon>
anyway, pretty sure he's talking about twitter feminists
<glowcoil>
joelteon: what are you getting at?
<joelteon>
you're confusing it with "all blacks" or "all transsexuals"
<glowcoil>
I am not at all confusing it with that
<glowcoil>
just because someone has access to twitter doesn't mean they don't suffer from racism or the fundamental dehumanization our society subjects transsexuals to
<whitequark>
joelteon: not all opinions are equally important though
<whitequark>
I find his quite unimportant, as it cites neither relevant personal experience nor verifiable sources
<glowcoil>
joelteon: also what are you getting at re "act of skepticism invalidates his opinion"
<joelteon>
oh that was a jab from the kafka argument thing
<joelteon>
anyway i'm not 100% sure we're talking about the same groups of people here
<joelteon>
i'm not denying the existence of oppressed people in society
<joelteon>
that would be kind of dumb
<joelteon>
but the discourse on twitter, tumblr, etc. *does* sound a little unreal
<joelteon>
there are legitimate complaints
<joelteon>
and then there are people whose end goal is to live in some kind of sterile echo chamber
<joelteon>
like tumblr feminists who want to ban the words "stupid", "lame" etc because they're "ableist"
<joelteon>
whether or not that's a good idea, i don't give a shit
<joelteon>
but it's incredibly trivial
<joelteon>
and by implication, insulting to people who are actually persecuted
<joelteon>
not the people who get called stupid
<glowcoil>
joelteon: here's a fact:
<glowcoil>
humanity can only solve *one* problem at a time
<joelteon>
anyway, my interpretation of the article is that he was targeting it at *those* people
<glowcoil>
so, if some people are being killed
<glowcoil>
and osme people are being objectified
<glowcoil>
*all* 7 billion people
<joelteon>
ok that's a weird incorrect statement
<glowcoil>
have to focus on the killed people
<glowcoil>
and entirely ignore objectification
<glowcoil>
so, twitter dicourse about objectification is harmful
<glowcoil>
it makes people get killed
<glowcoil>
and is bad
<joelteon>
ok...
<joelteon>
wait a minute
<joelteon>
do you mean a single human can solve one problem at a time
<joelteon>
or all humans
<whitequark>
it was sarcasm
<joelteon>
oh ok
<joelteon>
oh he was doing a thing
<joelteon>
ok
<joelteon>
i got it now
<joelteon>
you're right, twitter discourse about objectification is harmful
<joelteon>
it makes people get killed
<joelteon>
so they should stop
<glowcoil>
:
<joelteon>
i dunno where you're going with that
<joelteon>
but ok
<prophile>
I think we should kill all the humans
<joelteon>
wait
<joelteon>
you're saying that it doesn't matter whether people are complaining about a problem that doesn't exist
<joelteon>
because other people can fix the ones that do exist
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<glowcoil>
joelteon: well, I disagree that it's a problem that doesn't exist
<glowcoil>
joelteon: but saying "worse things are happening elsewhere" is not at all a valid reason to tell someone to stop talking about a particular problem
<glowcoil>
joelteon: first of all, racism, transphobia, and sexism in american society are serious problems and in no sense are they "problems that don't exist"
<glowcoil>
joelteon: but also, even though there are "arguably worse" things happening elsewhere like people being killed and shit
<glowcoil>
joelteon: that's the stupidest fucking reason in the world to tell someone to stop talking about feminism etc.
<purr>
<whitequark> why are all countries gay dudes
<joelteon>
eh, it kinda depends on what twitter feminists are arguing about
<glowcoil>
I would say that that's the wrong attitude to have
<joelteon>
because a lot of them are arguing about things that don't exist
<glowcoil>
we're not deciding whether twitter feminists, as a whole, are being productive or not
<glowcoil>
I don't think that's a worthwhile thing to decide
<joelteon>
i thought that was the point of the article
<glowcoil>
yeah, I think the article is fundamentally useless and misguided
<glowcoil>
in the particulars
<joelteon>
oh ok
<joelteon>
well i think we can agree on that
<glowcoil>
but it's symptomatic of a disgusting attitude
<joelteon>
well that's the thing though
<glowcoil>
like, if you have the attitude of instinctively searching for ways to question and disbelieve people who argue for social justice
<glowcoil>
you will find what you want
<glowcoil>
and you will, overall, harm the cause of those who are oppressed
<joelteon>
we'll have to agree to disagree on that point
<glowcoil>
so listen to this
<glowcoil>
in that article, and what you were saying as well
<glowcoil>
there was a lot about problems that don't exist
<glowcoil>
and that people should stop focusing on problems that don't exist, and focus on the real problem
<glowcoil>
well, focusing on people focusing on problems that don't exist is one further level of uselessness
<glowcoil>
so, esr writing that post is even *less* helpful to the world than twitter feminists
<joelteon>
this conversation is even less helpful than that
<joelteon>
you're focusing on a person focusing on people focusing on problems that don't exist
<glowcoil>
sure
<joelteon>
if that's a bad thing, why did you link the article
<glowcoil>
because esr has kind of a cult following
<glowcoil>
and because i had a visceral reaction of disgust to it
<glowcoil>
and felt compelled to vent about it
<joelteon>
okay
<glowcoil>
see, I'm not arguing that
<glowcoil>
arguing about things being useless is inherently useless
<joelteon>
i wouldn't expect you to
<glowcoil>
i'm saying, by esr's own logic, his own post is useless
<joelteon>
well it got him a lot of pageviews
<joelteon>
but anyway
<glowcoil>
well that's what he's accusing twitter feminism of!
<glowcoil>
doing things for visibility rather than the greater good
<joelteon>
maybe by adding another layer of meta-discussion he thinks he can help the root cause
<joelteon>
i.e. the one that's about actual stuff
<glowcoil>
well, I'm adding a layer of meta discussion
<joelteon>
not about people complaining about stuff that isn't about the actual stuff
<glowcoil>
and I'm thinking I can help the root cause in some small amount
<joelteon>
hopefully
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<devyn>
whitequark: you gonna move here now? :p
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<whitequark>
devyn: huh?
<devyn>
whitequark: exchange rate is apparently getting pretty bad...
<whitequark>
ah, yes
<whitequark>
funny thing, I'm now glad I have about the same amount of BTC than I have RUR
<whitequark>
because at the current exchange rate of BTC/USD and USD/RUR this gives me a sizable advantage
<whitequark>
requires some hoops to cash out though