Turl changed the topic of #linux-sunxi to: Allwinner/sunxi /development discussion - did you try looking at our wiki? https://linux-sunxi.org - Don't ask to ask. Just ask and wait! - https://github.com/linux-sunxi/ - Logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/linux-sunxi
<deskwizard> its a android thing
<deskwizard> well, i recently tried linux on my a20 and its much faster than android
<Emaranhado> nice!
<deskwizard> okay, do 'cat /etc/recovery.fstab'
<Emaranhado> I'm hoping to put a linux on this thing so I can use it for work, instead of carrying my laptop around
<deskwizard> nice :)
<deskwizard> lets make this real!
<Emaranhado> yeah!
<Emaranhado> no such file/directory
<deskwizard> okay, thought that might happen
<deskwizard> ill boot my board give it a minute
<Emaranhado> k
<Emaranhado> I really appreciate it =D
<Emaranhado> tanks
<Emaranhado> thanks*
<deskwizard> Glad to help man :)
<deskwizard> just keep in mind I probably dont know more much than you do
<Emaranhado> np
<deskwizard> (and english aint my first language, so if I'm not making sense let me know :P)
<Emaranhado> also not mine
<Emaranhado> so, if you don't get something I say, let me know =D
<deskwizard> will do hehehe
<deskwizard> what does it say if you say 'mount'
<deskwizard> does it list them or screw you over?
<deskwizard> lmao no OS on mine, thats going well lol
<Emaranhado> hahahaha
<deskwizard> tablet is a31, lets have a look
<Emaranhado> it does list some blocks
<deskwizard> oh
<deskwizard> *facepalm*
<deskwizard> ... mount /dev/nanda somewhere
<Emaranhado> nanda, no
<Emaranhado> but nandd, nande, nandh and nandi
<deskwizard> Exactly, we need to mount those 3 somewhere, one of them has your FEX on it
<deskwizard> I mean,
<deskwizard> one of the 3 that are not mounted, a b c
<Emaranhado> i see
<Emaranhado> can I mount that issuing the command?
<Emaranhado> like, no problems?
<deskwizard> yeah
<deskwizard> should be nandc
<deskwizard> (/boot)
<deskwizard> nanda is /bootloader, nandb is /Env and nandc is /boot
<deskwizard> in theory
<deskwizard> lo
<Emaranhado> D:
<Emaranhado> where should I mount it ?
<deskwizard> id make a folder in /sdcard like 'tmp' and mount it there
<Emaranhado> k
<Emaranhado> mount /dev/block/nandc /sdcard/tmp
<Emaranhado> Am I missing something?
<deskwizard> -t ext4 maybe ?
<deskwizard> whats it complaining about ?
<Emaranhado> no such file/directory
<deskwizard> about which one?
<Emaranhado> actually, sorry
<Emaranhado> it just give me the syntax
<Emaranhado> it says "Usage : mount [-r] [-w] [-o options] [-t type] device directory
<deskwizard> mount -o rw -t ext4 /dev/block/nandc /sdcard/tmp
<deskwizard> (remount system R/W: mount -o rw,remount /system)
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<Emaranhado> no such file or directory
<Emaranhado> and doesn't say which one
<deskwizard> 'ls /dev/block'
<deskwizard> is nandc in there
<deskwizard> ?
<Emaranhado> I tried proc/partitions/nandc too
<Emaranhado> ha, now a got an "operation not permitted"
<Emaranhado> I created a folder on the internal memory
<Emaranhado> and tried to copy it there
<Emaranhado> when I try "sudo mount (...)"
<Emaranhado> it gives me a message saying that /system/bin/bash/sh : sudo : not fount
<Emaranhado> so, I can't sudo my way?
<deskwizard> try just 'su'
<deskwizard> or su -c mount... etc
<Emaranhado> when I su -c mount
<Emaranhado> and put all the arguments
<Emaranhado> like -o rw etc etc
<Emaranhado> it gives me the same results as only writting it "mount" and hitting enter
<deskwizard> is the thing rooted?
<Emaranhado> yes
<deskwizard> mkay
<Emaranhado> root checker gives me the thumbs up
<deskwizard> okay, lets do something else for now
<deskwizard> check if this file exists: /proc/config.gz
<Emaranhado> nope
<Emaranhado> doesnt show on the ls
<deskwizard> too bad
<Emaranhado> xdg-open config.gz also not working
<deskwizard> try mounting nanda with ' -t vfat'
<Emaranhado> no such file/directory
<Emaranhado> I'm not that confident in the /proc/partitions/nandx
<deskwizard> no no
<deskwizard> '/dev/block/nanda'
<Emaranhado> same
<deskwizard> '/proc/partitions' is like a text file of the sort
<deskwizard> what does the fstab look like ?
<deskwizard> its mounting the other partitions, it may give us a clue
<Emaranhado> how can I see that?
<deskwizard> 'cat /etc/fstab'
<deskwizard> if that one doesnt work...
<deskwizard> lol
<Emaranhado> yay
<Emaranhado> doesn't
<Emaranhado> work
<Emaranhado> \io/
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<deskwizard> 'cat /systemetc/fstab'
<deskwizard> 'cat /system/etc/fstab'
<Emaranhado> nope
<deskwizard> makes no sense
<Emaranhado> vold.fstab?
<deskwizard> 'ls /' ?
<deskwizard> yeah
<deskwizard> maybe lets have a look
<deskwizard> notice the mount line for sdcard? ;)
<Emaranhado> ;D
<deskwizard> let me know if it works :)
<Emaranhado> =/
<Emaranhado> nope
<Emaranhado> it doesnt
<Emaranhado> let me check on that devices folder
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<Emaranhado> nope
<Emaranhado> can't "cd" it
<deskwizard> no you wont be able to cd it
<deskwizard> you should be able to do 'ls /dev/virtual/block'
<Emaranhado> nope
<Emaranhado> can't ls that
<deskwizard> ffs...
<deskwizard> idk man
<Emaranhado> jesus
<Emaranhado> just navigated there
<Emaranhado> and ls there
<Emaranhado> and it worked
<Emaranhado> IT FUCKING WORKED
<Emaranhado> D:
<deskwizard> finally ! :)
<Emaranhado> I see the nandx there
<deskwizard> okay
<deskwizard> now try to mount them with that path
<Emaranhado> I keep getting "no such file or directory"
<Emaranhado> jesus christ
<deskwizard> you sure the folder you want to mount into exists? :P
<Emaranhado> yes
<Emaranhado> I can navigate there
<deskwizard> mkay
<Emaranhado> cd /sdcard/tmp works D:
<deskwizard> how about 'ls -la /dev/block'
<deskwizard> those 'nandx' in there symlinks?
<Emaranhado> nope
<Emaranhado> root
<Emaranhado> all but the nanf
<Emaranhado> nandf is system
<deskwizard> thats the owner/group
<deskwizard> on the right side
<deskwizard> does it show like its linking to another file/directory?
<Emaranhado> nope, it doesn't
<Emaranhado> it has some parameters, like mount parameters
<deskwizard> uh
<Emaranhado> but doesnt have any paths or anything similar
<deskwizard> what do you mean mount parameters ?
<Emaranhado> let me show you
<Emaranhado> brw -xr-r
<Emaranhado> seems like parameters
<deskwizard> permissions
<Emaranhado> ah
<deskwizard> what happens if you type 'su' just those 2 letters ?
<deskwizard> does the terminal prompt change ?
<Emaranhado> yes
<Emaranhado> from $ to #
<deskwizard> what if you try to mount it now ?
<Emaranhado> same
<Emaranhado> no such
<deskwizard> mkay
<deskwizard> *sigh*
<deskwizard> ( what I'm coding isnt working either lol)
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<Emaranhado> hahahah
<Emaranhado> I know that feeling
<deskwizard> im sure we're missing some stupid little thing
<Emaranhado> which language?
<deskwizard> C/C++ arduino library for i2c port expander
<deskwizard> im making an alarm clock... dont ask
<deskwizard> lol
<Emaranhado> hahahahaha
<Emaranhado> been there
<Emaranhado> I'm waiting for my raspberry pi
<Emaranhado> so I can begin on my alarm clock
<Emaranhado> I mean, it's better to wake up listening to a nice song
<deskwizard> awesome!
<deskwizard> Exactly
<deskwizard> I bet we end up with the same thing, built totally differently hehe
<Emaranhado> yep
<Emaranhado> that's the fun of it!
<Emaranhado> I'm also wishing to automate my brewing proccess
<deskwizard> man
<Emaranhado> I've seen some wicked sensors
<deskwizard> Lets combine the 2!
<deskwizard> alarm know what time you wake up
<deskwizard> oh...
<deskwizard> you mean like beer right?
<Emaranhado> beer and mead
<Emaranhado> but yes
<deskwizard> I tought coffee
<deskwizard> lol
<Emaranhado> hahahaha
<deskwizard> but you gave me an awesome idea
<deskwizard> got some RF links on the way, I guess they taken now
<deskwizard> lol
<Emaranhado> wake up to drink some freshly made coffee?
<Emaranhado> hahahahah
<Emaranhado> nice!
<deskwizard> why know, the alarm know when youre gonna wake up, have it start the damn thing
<deskwizard> as awesome as it may, that doesnt solve any of our current issues
<Emaranhado> yep
<Emaranhado> it doesn't
<Emaranhado> but it takes some of the disappointment off
<Emaranhado> I didn't think it was going to be easy
<Emaranhado> but It never crossed my mind that I wouldn't even be able to mount a damn partition
<deskwizard> makes 2 of us man
<Emaranhado> I just typed mount -t ext4 /dev/block/nandc /sdcard/tmp
<Emaranhado> and got a "Invalid argument"
<Emaranhado> isn't ext4 available?
<deskwizard> okay
<deskwizard> yes
<deskwizard> but that doesnt mean thats what the partition uses
<deskwizard> try vfat
<deskwizard> or emmc
<Emaranhado> vfat gives me invalid argument
<Emaranhado> emmc gives me "no such device"
<deskwizard> okay so we need nanda because we want script.bin
<deskwizard> try nanda and vfat
<deskwizard> I should have googled it before
<deskwizard> 4 OSes at the same time might be a bit much
<Emaranhado> what
<Emaranhado> it didn't give me an error
<deskwizard> ;)
<Emaranhado> seriously about to cry
<Emaranhado> i see boot.ini
<deskwizard> tar it all
<Emaranhado> how do I/
<Emaranhado> i mean, how do I do that D:
<deskwizard> i dont remember the exact command by heart, just search for "tar.gz make archive command line"
<deskwizard> something like 'tar zfc boot.tar.gz /sdcard/tmp'
<deskwizard> but dont trust me on that one, double check before
<deskwizard> else it might fuck everything up and you'll blame me
<deskwizard> and I'll blame you for listening to me in the first place :P
<Emaranhado> found it =D
<Emaranhado> hahaha
<Emaranhado> tar not found
<deskwizard> busybox tar
<deskwizard> see why I'm sick of android? :P
<Emaranhado> I'm pretty much with ya
<deskwizard> I tried linux for like 10 minutes, changing the fex file actually worked, was a charm
<deskwizard> so I'm gonna go back to that next
<Emaranhado> jesus what
<Emaranhado> some pretty strange things on the terminal
<Emaranhado> D:
<Emaranhado> android is on drugs, i'm sure of it
<deskwizard> its fighting back heheh
<Emaranhado> it just drew something like a cloud
<Emaranhado> I mean, that's some serious acid backlash
<deskwizard> sounds like its not just android..... :P~
<Emaranhado> D:
<Emaranhado> it stopped, but doesn't seem finished
<Emaranhado> some weird things still hanging on the screen
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<Emaranhado> but well, I still see the screen, so that has to be a good signal
<deskwizard> i like your optimism...
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<Emaranhado> I'm not qualified to be an optimist
<Emaranhado> it's just that I usually prepare myself for the very worst
<deskwizard> so what happened with that tar command
<deskwizard> ?
<Emaranhado> there's some noise in the screen
<Emaranhado> the system isn't hanging
<Emaranhado> but the terminal isn't letting me input anything
<deskwizard> mkay
<deskwizard> hope you got the command right...
<Emaranhado> me too
<Emaranhado> ok, the terminal is back
<Emaranhado> but everything I type is written in gibberish
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<Emaranhado> @deskwizard what do I do with those files
<Emaranhado> finally got it out of android
<Emaranhado> just mounted a pendrive and copied the files over D:
<deskwizard> well, you put them up on github so I can have a look
<deskwizard> lol jk
<deskwizard> we need a little program
<deskwizard> we need 'bin2fex' so we can convert that script.bin file of your into a .fex file
<Emaranhado> ow, nice github blocked my several attempts to remember my password
<Emaranhado> k
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<deskwizard> This repository is empty.
<Emaranhado> yep
<Emaranhado> uploading everything
<deskwizard> oh okay hehee
<Emaranhado> @deskwizard done
<deskwizard> same here, not much to see without decompiling script.bin
<Emaranhado> how do I do that?
<Emaranhado> I downloaded the sunxitools
<Emaranhado> actually, I downloaded the project
<Emaranhado> should I compile it?
<deskwizard> yeah, you kinda have to
<Emaranhado> K, I'll have to do that tomorrow
<Emaranhado> I have to get up in 4 hours to go to work \o/
<deskwizard> Oh I see
<Emaranhado> thanks for everything, mate!
<deskwizard> hit me up when you get here tomorrow
<deskwizard> my pleasure !
<Emaranhado> seriously thank you
<Emaranhado> I mean, I felt pretty stupid doing this
<Emaranhado> just like an user =/
<deskwizard> we all did at one time or another ;)
<deskwizard> I do, all the time
<Emaranhado> it's good for the ego, I guess
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<Emaranhado> thanks again!
<Emaranhado> I'll get going
<deskwizard> youre welcome :) talk to you later
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<Emaranhado> I'll ping you tomorrow, if you got some time to help me again =D
<Emaranhado> thanks =D
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<wens> mripard: the clock people seem to want to move away from clock-output-names, and move the names into the driver
<wens> I don't think our driver would fit well with the new model
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<mripard> wens: reference ?
<mripard> they did not try very hard ... :/
<mripard> I don't really see an issue with that if they ask us to do so, it will just create a lot of boilerplate
<wens> i'm hoping not going that way
<wens> i wonder how they plan to migrate away from some of the functions that derive clock names directly from the DT
<wens> iirc they want to get rid of names as the basis for clock routing, but nothing solid has been posted yet
<mripard> which would be a good idea
<mripard> but that's a different story
<wens> the sunxi clk DT bindings already provide lots of routing data, even though some of it is in the driver, like the divs clocks or the audio pll
<mripard> yeah, but it is static routing
<mripard> and it's opaque
<mripard> we're using the name as we would use the struct clk or whatever they want to base the routing on
<mripard> we get it from the registration function, and pass it to the next
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<codekipper_> mripard: Hi Maxime,
<codekipper_> have you looked into the sun4i-codec capture?
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<codekipper_> just wondering if it's worth me looking into it?...I've put a few patches together and just the routing and widgets to go
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<mripard> codekipper_: yeah, I have a patch for it for the CHIP that works
<mripard> I just have to submit it
<mripard> but ENOTENOUGHTIME these days
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<codekipper_> mripard: cool....looks exactly like mine:P!
<codekipper_> i can look at the sun7i variations(dac tuning) and line in.
<codekipper_> ahhh you've already done the tuning bit
<mripard> codekipper_: it should work, but I never tested it
<codekipper_> I'll give it a go....
<ccaione> mripard: you guys going to fosdem?
<wens> i am
<ccaione> wens: long journey uh?
<ccaione> I'm not sure yet, still deciding
<wens> ccaione: yeah, but shorter trip this time, only a week
<mripard> ccaione: I don't know yet
<mripard> wens: nooo, just when I thought I was getting at the end of my patches backlog :(
<wens> mripard: i still have 10 on top of them lol
<wens> they've been sitting for a while due to ENOTIME
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<wens> the complete list is here: https://github.com/wens/linux/commits/sun9i-rsb
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<megal0maniac> Ooh! R28 p/m for a static IP. No L2TP needed
<megal0maniac> Sorry :/ Wrong channel
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<montjoie> does someone see something wrong with http://pastebin.com/j1nsBMGa, my u-boot wont autostart anything
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<TheLinuxBug> is that a rhetorical question
<TheLinuxBug> obviously its not detecting USB or network
<TheLinuxBug> so it won't boot
<ssvb> montjoie: do you have anything on the sd card?
<ssvb> montjoie: there is still no USB or Ethernet support for H3 in U-Boot
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<montjoie> ssvb: I can start uImage at hand so there something in mmc
<montjoie> but the kernel crash after http://pastebin.com/mTKXWDkF
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<ssvb> montjoie: you can try to downclock DRAM from 672 MHz to something lower
<ssvb> montjoie: for a rather conservative choice, just change it in U-Boot defconfig to 480 MHz
<codekipper> montjoie: looks like you're missing boot.scr/uEnv.txt on the card
<ssvb> codekipper: are these instructions better than http://linux-sunxi.org/Mainline_U-Boot#Boot ?
<montjoie> I miss boot.scr
<montjoie> ssvb: I will try the downgrade also
<ssvb> montjoie: OK, but the oops is still an indication that something might be not very reliable, and the DRAM clock speed is the primary suspect
<ssvb> montjoie: is your U-Boot from http://git.denx.de/?p=u-boot.git;a=summary ?
<ssvb> montjoie: or some other fork?
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<codekipper> ssvb: no....this was put together a few weeks ago when I managed to boot my OP2
<codekipper> just wanted to write something that could be cut and pasted to get a booting card.
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<ssvb> codekipper: things have progressed quite a lot in the last few weeks
<ssvb> codekipper: for example, jemk's u-boot repository still contains the code with problematic zq calibration
<codekipper> yeah...I've noticed but others on that thread have taken over the batton
<ssvb> codekipper: if montjoie used that u-boot branch, then this perfectly explains his kernel oopses
<IgorPec> ssvb: doing anything with / on musb driver?
<codekipper> I was looking at his u-boot pastebin. Have you experienced the kernell oops? I've not seen anything like that
<codekipper> well....nothing not caused by my hacks!
<ssvb> codekipper: it was discussed in the linux-sunxi mailing list, and the mainline u-boot repository now has a better dram init code for h3
<ssvb> codekipper: there is still a bit of mess with all these forum threads and repository forks for h3
<ssvb> codekipper: but hopefully things will converge pretty soon
<codekipper> ssvb: yeah..the last item in that thread mentions that. I've not booted my OP2 for a week or so
<ssvb> IgorPec: do you mean usb otg support for h3?
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<IgorPec> no, on A20 .. i am experiencing some weird behaviour. host mode, both kernels (3.4 and 4.4). I got "not enough bandwidth" on some devices
<IgorPec> ssvb: only on OTG port, on normal working o.k.
<jelly> ops: ir2ivps8 is one of logging bots, used to combine unauthorized public logs on web with ad serving and SEO
<ssvb> IgorPec: Hans de Goede is the USB guy
<ssvb> but the OTG port needs a separate driver, which is not available yet
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<IgorPec> ssvb: don't need OTG I'll try ping Hans, tnx
<ssvb> IgorPec: hmm, what do you need then?
<IgorPec> ssvb: host mode only
<ssvb> IgorPec: the USB host ports should already work on H3
<ssvb> IgorPec: but the OTG port needs a driver regardless of whether you want to use it in the device or host mode
<IgorPec> ssvb: they are working, yes .. just not completly properly ;) (need for A20)
<IgorPec> ssvb: musb ?
<IgorPec> ssvb; i got it working, i can use mouse, mount drive, etc.. but while trying to play music on external dac it crashes
<ssvb> IgorPec: what is not working completely properly? and on A20 or H3?
<IgorPec> ssvb: playing music on DAC on A20 while the exact HW plays O.K. via other USB ports
<ssvb> IgorPec: just post this information to the mailing list with a bit more details
<IgorPec> ssvb: i was thinking to do next ... thanks for your time anyway!
<ssvb> np
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<montjoie> ssvb: I use hand u-boot (branch sunxi-wip)
<montjoie> hans
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<montjoie> ssvb: it works http://pastebin.com/1a8cUMDu thanks
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<montjoie> but no network
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<dannym> Hmm... how does Linux handle the case when a special function of one of the gpios is in use? Is /sys/class/gpio/gpioxxx still supposed to be available for it as well?
<dannym> (Because PI12 seems to be available (and working) as gpio268 on LIME2 if clk_out_a is enabled and using PI12)
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<deskwizard> dannym, you mean like if a pin is set to a function in the fex file, like the lcd power pin for example?
<dannym> deskwizard, kinda, but using the mainline kernel. I have a tiny driver enable the clk_out_a. The gpio dir is still there afterwards. (I also tried enabling a clock with a typo and I get an error - so the other was presumably found)
<deskwizard> oh okay, I couldnt say on mainline
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<dannym> deskwizard, hmm... how was it with 3.4? (Technically, I have a 3.4 sd card somewhere)
<deskwizard> I can't tell you the EXACT name, but they showed as something along the lines of sys_gpio169 or whatever #
<deskwizard> iirc
<dannym> deskwizard, yes, it's the same on mainline. But some pins have an optional non-gpio function. What happens when you use that function? (for example if you use the CPU UART on a gpio pin)
<dannym> (I mean if, instead of bitbanging it yourself, you have a fixed-function block on the CPU do it)
<deskwizard> yeah yeah I see what you mean, like the UARTs, I2C, SPI etc..
<deskwizard> I don't know :|
<deskwizard> good one though
<dannym> (Do you use UART0? That has PB22, PB23. Do these still show up as gpio for you? They do for me and I *definitely* have my serial console on there... wtf)
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<Seppoz> wha is the gpio logic level?
<Seppoz> 3.3v?
<deskwizard> yes
<Seppoz> thx
<Seppoz> dannym: check the gpio function code for sunxi
<Seppoz> dannym: the last export bascially wins
<Seppoz> as it will setup the mux
<Seppoz> everytime you are accessing a gpio pin using stuff like port:PE07<1><default><default><0> the mux is set
<Seppoz> so the last driver/module doing this basically sets the mux function
<Seppoz> there is allways only 1 mux function per pin active. you can not have 2 at the same time (unless there is a mux for both functions)
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<Seppoz> so for example if you setup i2c to be used as i2c pin by the chip i2c hw stack you can not use it as gpio
<Seppoz> dannym: the fact that pins that are used for uart show up as gpio is a messed up fex file
<Seppoz> check your [gpio_para] and make sure it dont export the gpio fpr the sysfs
<dannym> Seppoz: I see. (It's mainline dts)
<Seppoz> oh well for dts i honestly dont know sorry
<Seppoz> but i suposse the muxing is the same
<Seppoz> so it should be the same
<Seppoz> muxing is a chip thing not a kernel thing
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<dannym> Seppoz: I see. But the kernel doesn't save me from myself? I'm trying that stuff right now and I can export a gpio of the UART where the console it.... errrrrr
<dannym> (I'm starting to get some inkling on why when I poke random gpios my hard drive shuts off...)
<Seppoz> can you post your dts
<Seppoz> should be in arch/arm/boot/dts/whateverboard.dts
<dannym> (it's sun7i-a20-olinuxino-lime2.dts adapted by me, starting from 4.4-rc1)
<Seppoz> note the include of sun7i-a20.dtsi
<dannym> Seppoz: and the include is http://pastebin.com/RnSgh8XY
<dannym> yeah
<Seppoz> i gues it has to do with the fact that its defined in PIO but thats a qquestion for somebody elese
<Seppoz> i gues it has to do with the fact that its defined in PIO but thats a qquestion for somebody else
<deskwizard> question, a20 hanging on boot when ethernet is not plugged... kernel or not?
<Seppoz> i suppose the pins need to be registered against the PIO subsystem for the drivers to access them
<deskwizard> ie. who do I complain to :P
<Seppoz> but just a guess
<Seppoz> deskwizard: probably udhpd from userspace
<Seppoz> there is an option that dont allow to interrupt dhcp requests
<Seppoz> and only continue after it gets an address
<Seppoz> but would need to see boot code
<Seppoz> log
<deskwizard> last couple lines: http://pastebin.com/f0d2jz6a
<Seppoz> looks like kernel
<deskwizard> thought so
<Seppoz> still think its userspace
<deskwizard> anyway ill look into it, i vaguely remember seeing a solution to that somewhere
<deskwizard> thx
<deskwizard> so how usable is sun7i on mainline ?
<Seppoz> you mean a20?
<Seppoz> or which particular?
<deskwizard> I thought A20 = sun7i
<deskwizard> olinuxino-a20-micro in particular :P
<dannym> deskwizard: very usable. Ethernet, Audio, Screen (if enabled in uboot), i2c, spi and uart work fine.
<deskwizard> console or gui?
<dannym> deskwizard: gui. There's a framebuffer thingie in mainline uboot, you have to enable that because there's no modesetting driver yet.
<deskwizard> mkay
<deskwizard> i can deal with that
<deskwizard> could even fail at doing the driver eventually lol
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<dannym> deskwizard: hehe you mean the motivation wouldn't be there anymore? :-)