ChanServ changed the topic of #nmigen to: nMigen hardware description language · code at · logs at
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<MadHacker> re: the above bits, I really like nMigen generally, but the with If/with Else: statefulness bothers me somehow.
<MadHacker> I can't think of a better alternative, but it feels almost morally wrong to rely on just order to attach the Else to the If. :D
<MadHacker> Python offering "if" overrides definitely required. :)
<whitequark> MadHacker: I agree with you conceptually
<whitequark> there are multiple reasons context managers are used rather than migen's If()/Else()
<whitequark> first, it's pep8-compatible
<whitequark> second, it makes writing FSMs a lot more elegant (no NextValue)
<Sarayan> wq: I like nmigen + cxxrtl, it just works :-)
<MadHacker> Yeah, I spent some time trying to find a better way. Short of putting the Else inside the If (which is extremely confusing) I really couldn't improve on it.
<Sarayan> and the phase signal structure is beautiful
<MadHacker> So I totally understand why it's done the way it is; it's just one of those unfortunate wrinkles in pragmatic systems.
<whitequark> MadHacker: i mean, the whole thing exists in python
<whitequark> if i wanted it to be elegant, i'd embed it in ocaml
<whitequark> which incidentally i did seriously consier and reject
<MadHacker> Heh. Fair. :)
<whitequark> Sarayan: sweet
<whitequark> i really need to bring it all upstream
<MadHacker> Python's productive, if nothing else, and the learning curve is gentle.
<Sarayan> python is kinda horrible in places, but you don't need these places for nmigen
<whitequark> i respectfully disagree, but your perspective is different from mine
<whitequark> you tend to not see all the horribleness while just using it
<Sarayan> Oh sure, I mean as a pure user
<whitequark> as a language designer your job is, in general, to consider every possible case, even degenerate, weird, useless etc ones
<whitequark> and a lot of a difference between an elegant language and one that isn't much is hiding there
<Sarayan> And for thing that are in practice simple
<whitequark> so you can go for years without ever touching those parts, but when you *do* hit them, you hit them *hard*
<whitequark> unlike a lot of things in programming the feedback loop there can take literally decades, which makes it really challenging
<Sarayan> yeah
<whitequark> i'm pretty sure many of the decisions in make in nmigen today will come back to haunt me, and i just have to live with it, too
<Sarayan> Welcome to c++ I could say :-)
<whitequark> ugh
<Sarayan> mwahahaha, usb over ip, really?
<Sarayan> at that point it's simpler to stick some pi as a server and driver
<Sarayan> I've added what in practice a ethernet capability to my usb printer with a pi2 I had in a corner and cups
<MadHacker> I have some of those ultra-wideband wireless USB hubs here.
<MadHacker> They actually work OK.
<Sarayan> uwb? It's everything else around that stops working?
<MadHacker> At least for my devices, it's well behaved in actual use, just quite short range.
<whitequark> MadHacker: wow, do you have a few unicorns in your closet, too?
<MadHacker> whitequark: ~pretty much...
<MadHacker> I have a lot of weird hardware. I'm not quite the person *all* of @foone's aliexpress gizmos are targetted at, but close.
<whitequark> yes but WUSB specifically.
<whitequark> I wasn't even sure if they ever shipped silicon for that
<MadHacker> Oh, definitely. It works, and it works pretty well, given the range limits.
<MadHacker> They're still available if you look around a bit!
<whitequark> huh, so kind of like those wireless PCIe extenders
<Sarayan> wireless pcie, but of course
<whitequark> it was a super short lived 60 GHz thing
<Sarayan> 60GHz, push in a little power and you'd sure end up short lived (nd well done)
<whitequark> huh?
<Sarayan> You're well into radiative heating range there
<Sarayan> aren't you?
<MadHacker> The trick was it was a tiny amount of power and veeeeery wide bandwidth.
<whitequark> yeah but not at the kind of power levels these thigns work at
<whitequark> i mean
<whitequark> consider that a microwave can legally radiate a total of 100W from all sides combined
<Sarayan> sure, it was a joke
<MadHacker> Just pulse coded, from what I remember. Straightforward on/off.
<MadHacker> That's a combination of a wireless USB set and a displaylink GPU; the GPU side also has a USB A port for other gadgets.
<MadHacker> I pulled the displaylink bits off mine for other reasons, but it works fine as a plain wireless USB device.
<MadHacker> It's veeeery line-of-sight though.
<Sarayan> it does video-over-usb on the laptop side?
<MadHacker> The laptop just sees it as a USB hub (modulo drivers).
<MadHacker> And there are some drivers involved, ISTR.
<MadHacker> The far end, with the displaylink bit in it, just acts as a normal USB displaylink device.
<MadHacker> Literally identical to what you'd get if you plugged a displaylink dongle into your laptop directly.
<MadHacker> The fact that the hub isn't totally transparent is presumably due to the USB ACK/NAK short turnaround issue.
<MadHacker> There does need to be some sort of driver.
<Sarayan> do yo know if the barco clickshare is displaylink?
<MadHacker> Sarayan: No idea, sorry.
<Sarayan> You sure you don't have one behind the unicorn?
<MadHacker> Preeetty sure.
<Sarayan> damn
<MadHacker> Unicorns are the national animal here in Scotland anyway, not a shortage. ;)
<Sarayan> huhuhu
<Sarayan> "Barco ClickShare Button R9861500D01 devices before 1.9.0 have Insufficiently Protected Credentials. The root account (present for access via debug interfaces, which are by default not enabled on production devices) of the embedded Linux on the ClickShare Button is using a weak password."
<Sarayan> so there's a linux running in the button, but of course
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<MadHacker> I'd like to know how they debug the UWB and 60GHz hardware, TBH. It's not like 60GHz scopes are common.
<MadHacker> Got to be a pain to diagnose any issues on the RF side.
<Sarayan> I guess that's what you have people like azonenberg for
<MadHacker> Mine'll do 100GSs/ but it's still only 4GHz input bandwidth. Much downconversion required or something.
<MadHacker> That, or million-quid scopes.
* zignig finally has to learn a new programming lang. Rust tutorials here we come.
* zignig has some free time ATM , weirdly.
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<kc5tja> whitequark: Yes, I read the logs from time to time. Maybe not as often as I should or when I'm actively waiting on a response to help answer a problem.
<whitequark> kc5tja: ah ok, I had a few things I wanted to reply but you already quit
<whitequark> next time I will
<Degi> Huh microwaves can legally radiate 100 W? That means my stacked acetone can microwave is within legal limits lol
<whitequark> this came up some time ago, maybe awygle mentioned it?
<Degi> Hm I have this microwave made from two acetone cans which I estimate at up to a few tens of watt of radiation when its badly fitted and unloaded (though that went down a lot when I added more solder around the copper mesh window, it had some gaps)
* kc5tja sighs
<kc5tja> I really wish that /quit day job was a command that had the more preferable effect. :/
<kc5tja> In any event, day job beckons.
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<awygle> Don't think it was me
<awygle> More relevant health metric is gonna be power density surely
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<_whitenotifier-3> [nmigen-soc] jfng synchronize pull request #12: event: add EventSource and InterruptSource. -
<_whitenotifier-3> [nmigen-soc] jfng commented on pull request #12: event: add EventSource and InterruptSource. -
<_whitenotifier-3> [nmigen-soc] codecov[bot] commented on pull request #12: event: add EventSource and InterruptSource. -
<_whitenotifier-3> [nmigen-soc] jfng edited pull request #12: Add event management primitives -
<_whitenotifier-3> [nmigen-soc] jfng reviewed pull request #12 commit -
<_whitenotifier-3> [nmigen-soc] whitequark commented on pull request #12: Add event management primitives -
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