ChanServ changed the topic of ##yamahasynths to: Channel dedicated to questions and discussion of Yamaha FM Synthesizer internals and corresponding REing. Discussion of synthesis methods similar to the Yamaha line of chips, Sound Blasters + clones, PCM chips like RF5C68, and CD theory of operation are also on-topic. Channel logs: https://freenode.irclog.whitequark.org/~h~yamahasynths
<cr1901_modern> well that rules me out lol
<Wohali> hm, i have an MS
<cr1901_modern> I DNF'd
<ej5> cr1901_modern, it's for making the current mirror more symmetrical by reducing the base current draw from the reference side of the mirror
<cr1901_modern> I see... cool!
<cr1901_modern> so it's to compensate for unmatched transistors
<cr1901_modern> like a "super" current mirror or something
<ej5> it's called a buffered feedback current mirror
<ej5> btw if you want an analog IC design text, you can't go wrong with http://www.designinganalogchips.com/
<ej5> very approachable
<cr1901_modern> I have a 2010 edition of Sedra and Sm- oh, this is a free textbook
<fseidel> ej5: might give that a shot. I always wanted to take analog courses in both undergrad/ms but never had the space in my schedule
<fseidel> thanks for the rec!
<cr1901_modern> I got an A-minus in electronics. I did not deserve that A-minus then; I _did_ get better at analog by the time I graduated, but I have trouble remembering stuff like how to calculate hfe and the sat/linear equations for a mosfet
<cr1901_modern> hfe has some temperature correction in the divisor if memory serves
<ej5> it's kinda approximate anyway
<ej5> BJTs are really voltage dependent current sources, but the base has this nasty parasitic diode that allows current to flow to the emitter
<cr1901_modern> I've always modeled it as current controlled current source
<cr1901_modern> In part b/c that's what "Beta testers" on multimeters measure
<TD-Linux> sedra and smith is very lacking in practical designs
<cr1901_modern> I thought it was a good textbook- it's one of them I actually still consult :P
<cr1901_modern> Sedra and Smith is good for the math, Horowitz and Hill is good for "you need to get shit done"
<TD-Linux> yeah I guess normally what I want is "pls spoonfeed me a topology"
<cr1901_modern> needs more gummel poon
<ej5> ebers/moll separates out two currents in the CE path, iDE and iDC
<cr1901_modern> (I know, Ebers moll is a superior model to "current controlled current source" :P. But the exponent makes the math hard lmao
<ej5> hard for simulation tools to solve also
<cr1901_modern> You can't even solve exactly for the voltage through a diode and resistor in series (or "you can, but not through algebra").
<cr1901_modern> ej5: Everything numerical is difficult IMO :(
<Wohali> ej5: i learned from sedra and smith, sedra is (well, was) a prof here at university of toronto
<Wohali> also horowitz and hill
<Wohali> for digital, some older stuff that isn't really useful anymore but i still enjoyed
<Wohali> like um
<Wohali> weste & eshraghian
<Wohali> have only skimmed camenzind
<cr1901_modern> I... didn't pay attention during VLSI class LOL
<cr1901_modern> I was more interested in doing Linux From Scratch because past me was an idiot
<Wohali> ...linux didn't exist when i was in uni :P
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<cr1901_modern> ... ahhh...
<cr1901_modern> presumably BSD wasn't opensourced either, except maybe 386BSD
<Wohali> slackware came out right towards the end of my time there
<Wohali> bbiab
<cr1901_modern> :)
<Lord_Nightmare> ej5: snork borkler
<ej5> yes?
<Lord_Nightmare> someone mentioned random words starting with s and b
<Lord_Nightmare> "S-word B-word"
<Lord_Nightmare> back to serious stuff, is there a plan for another run of those cards? I may be interested in one.
<Wohali> i am happy to get the pcbs made if there are enough orders
<Wohali> need min. 10
<cr1901_modern> perhaps we should make a list of ppl interested
<cr1901_modern> LN, me, and wohali (presumably) are 3
<cr1901_modern> fseidel: Interested in a snark barker run?
<cr1901_modern> Wohali: are you open to using google docs to collab? I've seen it used for a run on VOGONS: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13OJBXpRHn-KDlaMZbKcI_Y_q7ryPN61SusrwA4v4NVc/edit?usp=drive_web&ouid=106770994001936749649
<cr1901_modern> I could make a tweet on hellsite for more collaborators- or not
<Foone_> I'd help advertise it
<cr1901_modern> The offer to get boards made might be limited to ppl in here :P. So I want to be sure first.
<Wohali> i'm fine with whomever, i don't care about google docs or not, set up a google form/survey thing so ppl can put in their mailing info & # of boards
<Wohali> 1. get enough names 2. people pay
<Wohali> 3. i order them
<Wohali> 4. i ship them
<Wohali> busy rn but can talk more later
* cr1901_modern nods
<Wohali> ej5: where's the repo so I can check that i can load/read the design?
<ej5> afk for a while...
<Wohali> tu
<Wohali> cr1901_modern: will check the files tomorrow, i have a quieter day then. too much to get done tonight
<cr1901_modern> Wohali: Ack. I'll send you the form link then.
<cr1901_modern> To take a look before I send it off
<Wohali> you can share the sheet with wohali@gmail.com
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<cr1901_modern> Done
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<Wohali> cr1901_modern: also, pick a pcb soldermask colour: green, red, yellow, blue, white black
<Wohali> note, green is best
<cr1901_modern> green of course
<Lord_Nightmare> green
<Wohali> kk
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<Lord_Nightmare> red would look sort of cool, and oshpark's purple isn't bad either but that wasn't offered as an option
<cr1901_modern> I'm partial to blue as a secondary
<Lord_Nightmare> yeah blue looks neat, its sort of common on prototype or low-run boards from the 80s
<Lord_Nightmare> a light, 'smurf blue' color
<cr1901_modern> Blue is what I've seen used on ISA cards made in the 2000s-2010s
<cr1901_modern> See: Anything Sergey Malinov has put out
<cr1901_modern> it's blue
<Lord_Nightmare> red tends to be on gamer cards and stuff, also some of those cheap 'transistor tester on an avr' boards from china
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<Lord_Nightmare> yellow was used on NeXT boards
<cr1901_modern> https://github.com/skiselev/isa8_backplane Hoooooooly smokes
<cr1901_modern> how did I not know about this
<Lord_Nightmare> oh neat! a host board for those isa SBC things
<Lord_Nightmare> the original host boards are hard to find
<cr1901_modern> https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/Y8dcyt5m mmm, a bit too expensive right now, but def on my radar
<Wohali> Lord_Nightmare: i'm not doing oshpark, it'll be cheaper. I use blue for all my personal stuff
<Lord_Nightmare> ISA is also a pretty reliable connector and a decent* standard
* cr1901_modern concurs
<Lord_Nightmare> * if you ignore ibm's bullshit with edge triggered irq lines at least and do proper level triggering, that is. that's the biggest flaw in ISA
<cr1901_modern> Wohali: What's special about green, is it cheaper?
<Wohali> ISA is fine, though for lower pin count I prefer MTA156, esp. if ther'es going to be any analogue content
<fseidel> cr1901_modern: I don't have a machine to put it in, but CMU's computer club may be interested, I'll bring it up this weekend
<Lord_Nightmare> eurocard connectors are way better than ISA reliability wise
<Lord_Nightmare> but i don't think there's a bus standard other than NUBus which used eurocard connectors
<Wohali> for the thru-hole construction of this, not a huge problem, but when you get into SMT stuff it matters a lot
<Wohali> Lord_Nightmare: CompactCPI
<Wohali> PCI*
<fseidel> I feel like pink or neon green silkscreen on a blue soldermask could look neat, never seen a board like that though
<Lord_Nightmare> eurocard connectors have 3 rows of pins and cant flap around like isa cards can
<cr1901_modern> okay, lots of ppl seem to be leaning towards blue :P
<Wohali> i worked for an OEM that built a lot of CPCI gear
<Wohali> cr1901_modern: do a runoff in the form
<Wohali> green and blue, only choices
* cr1901_modern nods
<cr1901_modern> ... what's a runoff?
<Wohali> run off vote
<Wohali> two round voting
<Wohali> never heard of that?
<cr1901_modern> ahhh okay
<cr1901_modern> if I have I forgot
<cr1901_modern> Form updated :D!
<Wohali> blue is sliiiightly more expensive but not much
<Wohali> under $1 a board
<cr1901_modern> Well we won't know the true price anyway until everyone signs up
<cr1901_modern> just a max
<Wohali> right
<Wohali> the most expensive the boards will be, if I pull out all the stops on fabbing, si about $10CAD a board, plus S&H
<cr1901_modern> WOW :o... that's such a good price
<Wohali> :)
<Wohali> sorry, $10 USD
<cr1901_modern> Still a wonderful price
<cr1901_modern> oshpark would be charging like $150 for 3 boards
<cr1901_modern> (and I _like_ oshpark)
<Wohali> that's gold plated fingers, 2oz copper, chamfered border like recommended, blue soldermask, etc.
<fseidel> so total price is $10/board?
<Wohali> at most, plus whatever it costs for me to pack & ship them out
<fseidel> how much do you think shipping to pittsburgh, PA would be?
<Wohali> i'll have to get an estimate together tomorrow, won't be more than another $10 for sure
<fseidel> cool, just let me know
<cr1901_modern> Does the computer club have an ISA machine?
<fseidel> many
<fseidel> 2 5150s + a few assorted x86 boxen
<cr1901_modern> This never panned out, but as a joke we were planning to use my 486 Packard Bell as a sign up for an IEEE event or something
<cr1901_modern> I use to have the original monitor w/ it too. But then it started smoking
<fseidel> oof
<cr1901_modern> (through normal use I might add)
<fseidel> packard bell stuff tends to be crappy, right?
<cr1901_modern> indeed! But I love it anyway :D
<cr1901_modern> So I took it over to a friend's house and we smashed it in
<cr1901_modern> and probably breathed some bad noble gases
<cr1901_modern> (never smash vintage hardware unless it's beyond repair)
<fseidel> "monitor smoke, don't breath this" - the 'Will It Blend' guy
<fseidel> *breathe
<cr1901_modern> vita mix lost a lawsuit to that guy
<fseidel> oh really?
<cr1901_modern> according to wiki anyway
<cr1901_modern> and my family loves vita mix because it can be used to cook soup LOL
<fseidel> yeah, my uncle used to brag about making soup with his vitamix
<fseidel> what an odd feature
<Wohali> i am so tired :(
<cr1901_modern> I know that feeling
<Wohali> cr1901_modern: this is fine for pass 1, for pass 2 obviously I'll need shipping addresses/etc, which I can run thru PayPal I guess. Let that handle the GDPR side of things, since it's part of doing a business transaction with ppl
<Wohali> maybe add a field for destination country
<Wohali> so I know roughly where things are going
<cr1901_modern> Wohali: My original draft _had_ shipping address. Want me to put that back in?
<Wohali> Added
<Wohali> i think htis is fine
<cr1901_modern> Idk how the paypal side of things is gonna work... I have two accts (one personal, one business). Does Paypal allow you to collect payments that are reserved for a specific product (as well as shipping info, etc)?
<Lord_Nightmare> i can't answer that, you need to consult paypal docs
<Wohali> yes, it does, i can deal with it
<cr1901_modern> awesome
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<whitequark> hm
<whitequark> so, OPLL has an integrated DA converter, *but*
<whitequark> it says that it outputs OPLL test data to D0/D1 pins with certain bus state
<gruetzkopf> VMEbus uses "proper" DIN41612 eurocard connectors
<gruetzkopf> instead of the 2mm pitch ones cPCI uses
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<Wohali> gruetzkopf: sure, but it's eurocard-like :)
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<cr1901_modern> I don't know about OPLL, but the VRC7 (OPLL derivative) requires a semi-involved analog frontend to actually get music
<cr1901_modern> of course schematics from Famicom carts are online so you just copy from those :P
<cr1901_modern> One thing I'm curious about is whether OPLL uses implant ROM from the presets
<Wohali> cr1901_modern: btw, go ahead and launch survey whenever you want.
<cr1901_modern> https://twitter.com/cr1901/status/1106294734136446984 Tweet for those who want to RT (RTs appreciated)
<cr1901_modern> Thanks Foone_! Hopefully gets more traction now
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<ej5> just RTd
<cr1901_modern> Tyvm
<cr1901_modern> https://twitter.com/muramasa_ninja/status/1106312209552957440 Wohali: What's the answer to this? ENIG?
<Wohali> ENIG-RoHS
<Wohali> gold fingers with 45 degree chamfered border
<whitequark> "MADE IN ANGER" lmao
* Wohali goes to solder a bit
<cr1901_modern> Yup, have fun :D! Thanks agaiN!
<cr1901_modern> whitequark: There's a number of easter eggs on the board... and a video (I forget the link) showing each one off
<cr1901_modern> The Adlib clone looks much more like a legitimate Adlib (though a collector would still be able to detect a clone)
<cr1901_modern> ej5: >The soldermask color can be whatever you like, but hot pink is preferred.
<cr1901_modern> WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ME SOONER!
<whitequark> custom soldermask color is possible, any pantone color
<whitequark> but
<whitequark> $$$$$$
<whitequark> something like 1000 eur setup cost iirc
<cr1901_modern> The gh repo should just have a hot pink soldermask photoshopped
<ej5> yeah there are people on the VCF forums that still won't talk to me because of that adlib thing :P
<cr1901_modern> I think I was the one who started the thread on it, so that might've been my fault a bit :P?
<ej5> there was a different thread too
<cr1901_modern> Just think- you wouldn't have felt compelled to make a cheaper clone if ppl didn't sell them for unfair prices
<cr1901_modern> You can EASILY make your own on protoboard ISA for a fraction of what you're expected to pay
<TD-Linux> ej5, I gauge success on how butthurt the retro collecting community becomes :)
<whitequark> what adlib thing?
<cr1901_modern> I posted about it on VCF because I was excited, and a number of posts were accusing ej5 of making it easy to pass off clones as originals
<whitequark> you literally just look at the pcb substrate
<whitequark> old substrate was fucking junk
<ej5> yeah people were super pissed :P
<whitequark> you cant find a board house bad enough to actually reproduce an adlib quality pcb
<whitequark> they dont exist anymore
<cr1901_modern> I mean, adlib isn't a difficult card to make on your own (this is not a slight against your work ej5)
<ej5> of course, i also cloned the ultra rare IBM extender/receiver card pair
<cr1901_modern> either*
<gruetzkopf> ej5: ooh
<gruetzkopf> for the 5161?
<ej5> posted that on VCF, nobody gave a shit
<whitequark> lol
<ej5> yeah for the 5161
<TD-Linux> obviously all original adlib cards need to be graded and encased in VGA hermetic cases
<cr1901_modern> VGA?
<cr1901_modern> Not the video standard I'm guessing
<gruetzkopf> hmm i could maybe use that
<TD-Linux> cr1901_modern, google it
<gruetzkopf> i have a XT clone board and another case with a more modern industrial 14-slot isa backplane
<cr1901_modern> ej5: Anyways, even if VCF is pissed and are a ultra grumpy gatekeepers, _I'm_ proud of the work you've done :3! You've done a great public service!
<cr1901_modern> a bunch of*
<ej5> thanks man :)
<ej5> gruetzkopf, the IBM cards work fine in passive ISA backplanes, with one caveat: the 14.318KHz oscillator is not provided
<gruetzkopf> yeah but that's no trouble
<cr1901_modern> MHz?
<ej5> *coughs* MHz
<gruetzkopf> i have a good handful of those in DIP14
<cr1901_modern> https://github.com/skiselev/isa8_backplane Oh right I found this yesterday
<ej5> you could make a little tiny ISA card that just wires the oscillator output to the proper pins
<cr1901_modern> I guess a good "remix" would be to add the 14 MHz oscillator
<ej5> yep
<cr1901_modern> Call it the "5171-ATX"
<ej5> yeah so the IBM card is a little funny because it requires BIOS support
<gruetzkopf> hmm, and here i am, having built a 8 slot XTbus backplane from perfboard and magnet wire
<cr1901_modern> gruetzkopf: Nothing wrong w that... just I have no patience :P
<ej5> it's not just a couple of bus buffers, it actually can be configured to insert an additional wait state for memory reads
<cr1901_modern> ... HAHAHA
<gruetzkopf> neat
<cr1901_modern> so it's doing memory reads across a 1 meter long cable?
<gruetzkopf> hmm, so obviously you have the schematics
<gruetzkopf> doing a 16bit variant would be fun
<cr1901_modern> 5 ISA slots sounds like a lot, but I've found that I run out of them too quickly
<cr1901_modern> So I just use multifunction cards and not really care about anachronisms in my 5150
<cr1901_modern> gruetzkopf: Actually that's an interesting q
<cr1901_modern> if the schematics were avail, I wonder if the actual PCBs differ
<cr1901_modern> MTM scientific did a full clone of the IBM 5150
<cr1901_modern> They found the PCB does _not_ match the schematics provided
<cr1901_modern> unfortunately, I don't think they documented the differences of "expectation vs reality"
<ej5> there are some differences
<gruetzkopf> https://photos.app.goo.gl/xkzsozrCKAD94paa6 my oldest PC stuff is this stuff i dug out of a industrial controls dumpster
<cr1901_modern> http://www.mtmscientific.com/pc-retro.html >SORRY: SOLD OUT
<cr1901_modern> Noooooooo!
<cr1901_modern> Ahhh well
<gruetzkopf> also great fun, because i have a NEC V20 and NEC V25 emulator
<ej5> yeah mistakes in the schematic are detailed in my git repo: https://github.com/schlae/ibm-extender
<gruetzkopf> if you ever want to singlestep your DOS programs
<cr1901_modern> Oh lucky
<cr1901_modern> I had the opportunity to get a 486 ICE
<cr1901_modern> for $350
<cr1901_modern> I _almost_ did it, but decided against it because I had no long term plan to utilize it
<gruetzkopf> i could have totally used it :D
<cr1901_modern> "Microtek MICE-V 486"
<gruetzkopf> like, i'm trying to get a specialised controller with 2oo3 486DX2 up..
<cr1901_modern> gruetzkopf: Here, happy birthday https://www.ebay.com/itm/MICROTEK-MICE-SUPPORT/111930667741?hash=item1a0f9672dd:g:ph8AAOSwP~tW4EzU&frcectupt=true
<cr1901_modern> If you _do_ buy it here and now, please take pictures for me :P
<gruetzkopf> POD doesn't look complete
<cr1901_modern> dunno, Idk much about ICEs. I was taking said seller's word that it was complete (this was off Ebay)
<cr1901_modern> https://photos.app.goo.gl/AdfuV54zS8ozPTY16 This looks like a custom made board
<gruetzkopf> yep
<cr1901_modern> all the jumpers remind me of the inside of a VCR (remember those, kids?)
<gruetzkopf> i traced the stuff inside the company i got it from
<gruetzkopf> was test automation
<gruetzkopf> the CERDIP on the left is ADC
<cr1901_modern> I have a parallel port card w/ custom electronics to turn it into a DAQ unit
<cr1901_modern> including ADC
<gruetzkopf> this board connected to *another* board with 8085 stuff
<cr1901_modern> was a gift from a professor "free to a good home"
<gruetzkopf> prof "free to a good home" is always good to know
<cr1901_modern> Space permitting, my room is always a good home for vintage electronics
<cr1901_modern> if I can't fix it, I'll make sure its constituent components live on :P
<gruetzkopf> reminds me to properly fix my A2000, at the moment it's only hosting a siemens 368 pc-on-isa-card
<cr1901_modern> https://photos.app.goo.gl/3vtof2wb4yz2VCa79 Gee I wonder what speed this runs at
<cr1901_modern> (The clone I had ran at 8 MHz, but it didn't last long)
<gruetzkopf> completely nonobvious, right
<gruetzkopf> i have a fun card in it right now which don't have a pic of
<gruetzkopf> year2000 RTC card, complete with option rom!
<cr1901_modern> hahaha, nice!
<ej5> i think the ROMs in my A4000 are dying
<cr1901_modern> I like how one of the lots is "unpopulated"
<cr1901_modern> slots*
<gruetzkopf> yeah, the one at half pitch
<TD-Linux> ej5, rest in pieces. are they standard
<cr1901_modern> like what the hell are they for?
<gruetzkopf> no clue
<ej5> you can replace them with 27C400s
<cr1901_modern> maybe it was debugging
<gruetzkopf> but this box needs a FPU
<ej5> which i don't have, so i gotta figure something out
<TD-Linux> nice. a couple days ago I made a flash to 64mbit (42 pin) rom adapter
<cr1901_modern> I think I have an FPU I'm not presently using?
<TD-Linux> if you want to be cool and use flash you can make a 40 pin version https://github.com/tdaede/toshiba-64mbit-adapter
<ej5> yeah they use a "standard" 40 pin 16-bit ROM pinout, but it needs two of them
<cr1901_modern> I also have a compaq portable I I'm not presently using b/c the damn keyboard is busted
<ej5> oh shit TD-Linux i met you last night
<ej5> also Graham says hi :P
<TD-Linux> unfortunately it's level translators everywhere so a 27c400 is probably smarter
<TD-Linux> ej5, oh yeah I guess I only mentioned my irc handle briefly :)
<ej5> yeah it finally clicked
<gruetzkopf> i need to fix my toshiba t3100
<cr1901_modern> gruetzkopf: I've been developing an app using whitequark's 486 laptop... I have an ssh account that connects to the machine via CTTY
<cr1901_modern> it's... actually kinda fun
<cr1901_modern> Like I plan to use that programming style to develop old apps from now on instead of DOSBOX
<gruetzkopf> yeah
<cr1901_modern> Of course, won't work for GFX stuff, but that's okay
<cr1901_modern> At some point I'll just pipe CGA to a USB video "picture-in-picture" thing
<gruetzkopf> fun fact, a LARGE amount (like 20%) of german train traffic is in the hands of 486
<TD-Linux> oh yeah if you can find 5v flashes that's nice too
<cr1901_modern> Legacy infrastructure that's battle-proven?
<TD-Linux> a lot of repros like that are just using 3.3v flashes at 5v. which "works"
<TD-Linux> (that one looks to be a legit 5v flash)
<gruetzkopf> the legacy infrastructure is all relays
<gruetzkopf> over half of the network.
<cr1901_modern> So why need the 486s then?
<cr1901_modern> Why can't they replace relay controllers with a Rasp *smacked*
<gruetzkopf> its two gens newer signal box
<cr1901_modern> err, Broadcom devboard
<gruetzkopf> +tech
<gruetzkopf> and even the _current_ gen still has 486es as IO processors
<cr1901_modern> I _think_ 486s are still made?
<cr1901_modern> or they stopped being made recently
<gruetzkopf> (from AMD, in TQFP, complete with Win95 logo)
<cr1901_modern> I think the Management Engine is a 486- oh...
<cr1901_modern> of course, what was I thinking :P
<cr1901_modern> awesome, we already passed the 10 board threshold
<cr1901_modern> and I haven't even added my name to the list yet LOL
<cr1901_modern> ej5: Do you know of any online 3dprint service which could do the volume wheel for me?
<cr1901_modern> i.e. "their printer is good enough"
<ej5> i've had luck with 3dhubs, find someone using the formlabs form2
<ej5> be sure to use paypal instead of CC, just in case
<cr1901_modern> right...
<cr1901_modern> easy enough since I don't _have_ a CC :P
<cr1901_modern> only a debit
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<Wohali> i bet shapeways would be fine
* cr1901_modern nods
<cr1901_modern> I only plan to buy the board for now- and the 8051 chip
<cr1901_modern> I can use it as an excuse to add 8051 programming to opentl866
<cr1901_modern> Stilett0: Do you remember where the original VOGONs thread for getting a Snark Barker was?
<cr1901_modern> oh neverming, it's the same thread that ej5 started
<cr1901_modern> I just missed the post