ChanServ changed the topic of ##yamahasynths to: Channel dedicated to questions and discussion of Yamaha FM Synthesizer internals and corresponding REing. Discussion of synthesis methods similar to the Yamaha line of chips, Sound Blasters + clones, PCM chips like RF5C68, and CD theory of operation are also on-topic. Channel logs: https://freenode.irclog.whitequark.org/~h~yamahasynths
<cr1901_modern> Lord_Nightmare: Anyways, I can't promise this was the chip I was thinking of, but connecting https://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/en/MCP2210 to the ymf825 basically gets you a free interface from a laptop w/ minimal components
<TD-Linux> chance that's just a PIC with preloaded firmware
<whitequark> that's not arbitrary EP types
<whitequark> that's HID
<cr1901_modern> I know
<cr1901_modern> maybe I _thought_ it was arbitrary endpoint types
<cr1901_modern> when it wasn't
<cr1901_modern> and the part I'm thinking of doesn't actually exist
<cr1901_modern> Maybe it was all a dream
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<nickso> does anyone use the fb01
<cr1901_modern> Someone mentioned it recently, according to my browser history... but I don't have one :(
<nickso> oh ok
<cr1901_modern> I think someone was looking to RE it?
<nickso> what does RE it mean
<cr1901_modern> reverse engineer
<nickso> ohh
<nickso> i kinda want a tg77
<cr1901_modern> I mean, I'd like a dx7 or similar to keep around the house, but I don't feel like paying $200 for one
<cr1901_modern> especially when I don't have the space/time such a synth deserves
<nickso> yeah i dont have much room for big synths
<nickso> or big consoles
<cr1901_modern> TD-Linux: It could be a PIC w/ preloaded firmware. _I_ don't personally mind using the PIC compiler, but I know for a number of ppl using a PIC == "black mark of disapproval"
<cr1901_modern> nickso: Anyways, welcome hope you enjoy your stay! How'd you hear about this channel?
<nickso> i saw it in the channel list
<cr1901_modern> ah cool
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<cr1901_mobile> I'm useless for work tonight...
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<whitequark> deprocessed that aztec card
<whitequark> now i have one opl3 and yac512
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<cr1901_mobile> Hmmm... any docs on yac512?
<cr1901_modern> whitequark: The orange cat? https://twitter.com/whitequark/status/1104920954474516481 ._.
<Wohali> yay cats
<whitequark> yeah there's a datasheet
<whitequark> yes, the orange cat
<cr1901_modern> Music in the background: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPo2vYTldY8
<cr1901_modern> Avant-garde Slovenian music
<whitequark> do we need any translation from japanese?
<whitequark> i know an excellent translator
<cr1901_modern> If they are willing, I don't think a second pair of eyes would hurt
<whitequark> automated?
<whitequark> hm
<cr1901_modern> Not sure
<whitequark> so you want a review?
<cr1901_modern> whitequark: Yes it is autotranslated
<whitequark> that's 56 pages, wouldn't be very cheap
<whitequark> but, hm
<cr1901_modern> ahhh fair
<whitequark> can you explain exactly what you want to achieve
<whitequark> and i can talk
<cr1901_modern> Something on par w/ the existing English application manuals for OPL2, OPM, and OPL3. Enough to get started.
<whitequark> i.e. the existing automatic translation isn't enough?
<cr1901_modern> whitequark: Let me get back to you on that one. It's been quite a while since I read this datasheet. >>
<whitequark> it looks surprisingly readable for an autotranslation to me
<cr1901_modern> I only brought it up because it was the first thing I thought of
<cr1901_modern> As in "no official Yamaha-endorsed manual exists"
<cr1901_modern> sorry
<whitequark> i'm currently cataloguing all Yamaha parts i'm interested in
<whitequark> the mame doc dump is dirty
<cr1901_modern> "no official Yamaha-endorsed English* manual exists"
<whitequark> just a dump of pdf
<cr1901_modern> mame doc dump?
<whitequark> doesn't have codenames, doesn't have yamaha indexing
<whitequark> someone dumped something called "mame-docs" into my library's incoming
<cr1901_modern> hmmm
<whitequark> that has a lot of yamaha pdfs
<whitequark> uhhh, around 250
<cr1901_modern> jesus
<cr1901_modern> wonder if it was that person who has a contact at Creative
<whitequark> no
<whitequark> this was long time ag
<whitequark> *ago
<cr1901_modern> Anyways, "Yamaha-endorsed" isn't necessarily an indication of quality, as I'm sure you can attest to :)
<whitequark> sure
<whitequark> current state of the directory in my library
<whitequark> there's a 16386 line excel file in mame-docs dump called "ym2203_phase_increment.xls"
<cr1901_modern> The YM2612 English docs are provided as part of the Genesis manual that Sega sent to developers. They are known to be flat-out wrong. I wonder if someone was able to get a copy of the Japanese equivalent of the Genesis manual.
<cr1901_modern> yea, probably someone hooked it up to an oscilloscope back before it was known that most members share the same ROM tables
<cr1901_modern> This is a good collection you've got going
* cr1901_modern makes a copy for his own use... because sharing is caring
* cr1901_modern copies that floppy
<whitequark> i'm actively adding and renaming those files still
<cr1901_modern> ahh well I'll just delete the zip and replace w/ a new one
<cr1901_modern> when ready
<whitequark> jesus christ
<whitequark> one of the mame-docs files is a zip archive with a path inside starting with "Documents and Settings"
<whitequark> and there's an html inside
<whitequark> in shift-jis, of course
<cr1901_modern> Came from an XP machine?
<cr1901_modern> ahhh
<whitequark> hm, ymf276 doesn't even have a pinout
<whitequark> how the fuck am i going to hook it up
<whitequark> horrible idea.
<whitequark> glasgow "expansion board" that has a really long SOP footprint
<whitequark> and each pin of the footprint is connected to a small iCE40 used as a crossbar
<cr1901_modern> Yes I have thought of this idea before
<cr1901_modern> err, well I _think_ I know where you're going
<cr1901_modern> Some of them should be connected to mosfets on the voltage rails, so the pinout can dymanically be changed
<cr1901_modern> "Universal" FM synth breakout
<whitequark> the voltage rails would be jumpered
<whitequark> you'd put 0Rs where voltage rails should be
<whitequark> or maybe even just solder blobs
<cr1901_modern> But then each footprint is tied to a specific synth and the voltage rail pins can't be changed by simply changing some FPGA outputs
<whitequark> you solder the synth on
<whitequark> or socket it in, same difference
<cr1901_modern> >SOP footprint
<whitequark> sure
<cr1901_modern> oh...
<whitequark> i mean most of my synths are SOP
<cr1901_modern> I somehow converted that to DIP in my head
<cr1901_modern> as most of my synths are DIPs (including the weird 64-pins w/ 0.05" pitch)
<whitequark> the fuck is that
<cr1901_modern> these
<cr1901_modern> These were a gift from marshallh if memory serves...
<whitequark> oh
<whitequark> oh yeah i have those in my list
<whitequark> i would bend the pins underneath the DIP and solder it on like a PLCC
<whitequark> then use a non-insane footprint to interface with it
<cr1901_modern> haha, right... these chips are also a doozy because they require RAM for their sample buffers... don't remember if it's SRAM or DRAM (not that it makes a difference in 2019)
<whitequark> ugh, OPN2C has an analog mixer
<whitequark> lmao, sublime text can't do shift-jis
<whitequark> ... why is the docs for OPN3 comes as a diff from docs for OPNA
<cr1901_modern> BAHAHAHA
<cr1901_modern> what the fuck
<whitequark> YMF288(OPN3-L)とYM2608B(OPNA)の違い
<whitequark> i swear to god
<whitequark> oh the OPL3-L has a proper datasheet
<whitequark> er
<whitequark> but that's YMF289
<whitequark> what hte fuck????
<whitequark> oh that's OPL3-L not OPN3-L
<whitequark> aAAAAAAa
<whitequark> a HANDWRITTEN APPLICATION MANUAL?!
<whitequark> sdfjskdlfsd
<cr1901_modern> Descent into despair
<whitequark> OPFM-L
<cr1901_modern> How appropriate
<whitequark> no i made that up
<cr1901_modern> it fooled me :P
<Lord_Nightmare> cr1901_modern: sdip64 sockets are easy to get and hard to search for
<cr1901_modern> yes indeed, I always forget their name before I need them
<whitequark> looks like this is FM MUSIC 2
<cr1901_modern> another issue w/ ym2610 interfacing is that I did the math once and it _really_ pushes the limit of attaching to an FPGA board as a bus powered device
<whitequark> lol what the fuck
<whitequark> it just doesn't have the LSI CATALOG No
<whitequark> it's ... missing
<cr1901_modern> Is Yamaha the _worst_ vendor doc organization you've seen, or just pretty bad?
<whitequark> i mean, at least they have catalog numbers.
<whitequark> sometimes.
<Lord_Nightmare> its a combination of bad docs, missing docs, erroneous docs, and people scanning copies of copies of copies of docs which had the catalog number missing from the title page, or (in the ym2151 case) the whole title page missing
<TD-Linux> their electrical specs are bad
<cr1901_modern> "System Grand"
<whitequark> YM2151 is LSI-2121512
<Lord_Nightmare> and whoever came up with the OPx lettering where X is either a letter like L or a letter pair like LL or a lettter and a dash and another letter...
<whitequark> i found a copy with the title page
<Lord_Nightmare> MAKE UP YOUR DAMN MINDS
<whitequark> the worst thing about OPx is that well
<cr1901_modern> Fun game... figure out which letters of the English alphabet are _not_ used.
<Lord_Nightmare> yamaha had an OPLLP and an OPLL-P which are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PATCHSETS
<whitequark> there's OPN, OPNA (different chip), OPN2 (different chip), OPN2-L (low power) and OPN2C (CMOS)
<whitequark> Lord_Nightmare: which YM* numbers are OPLLP and OPLL-P
<Lord_Nightmare> i honestly need to recheck
<cr1901_modern> Mind your OPLLPs and OPLLQs
<Lord_Nightmare> one of them is ym2420
<whitequark> YMF281 says "OPLLP"
<Lord_Nightmare> and the other is ymf281
<whitequark> YM2420 is undocumented
<cr1901_modern> There's at least one chip that's a DRM'd version of another one
<Lord_Nightmare> ah, that's rpobably right then
<whitequark> >
<whitequark> Almost same as YM2413, but only F-num register is upside down.
<whitequark> excuse me what
<cr1901_modern> oh wait
<Lord_Nightmare> yes ym2420 is a DRM'ed ym2413
<Lord_Nightmare> the f-num register bit order is backwards
<cr1901_modern> oh, I thought the pinout was different
<Lord_Nightmare> theres also ym2164 OPP vs ym2151 OPM which are ALMOST the same, except the test register is moved around
<whitequark> so which one is OPLL-P
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<Lord_Nightmare> i guess ymf281
<whitequark> no that's OPLLP
<Lord_Nightmare> though i suppose its really opllp and wikipedia is wrong
<Lord_Nightmare> i'll have to fix that
<cr1901_modern> OH holy shit
<whitequark> the datasheet says OPLLP clearly
<whitequark> without the dash
<cr1901_modern> the hyphen makes a difference ._.?
<whitequark> but the abstract says "Operator Type LL"
<whitequark> so it might still be OPLL-P
<whitequark> aboslutely incomprehensible
<cr1901_modern> Lord_Nightmare: Want to add a page to the wiki that's essentially a "OPx to part number" decoder :P?
<cr1901_modern> and vice-versa
<cr1901_modern> whitequark: Is there any possibility you could grab a "SN76489A"? This is _not_ an FM chip. But most Genesis music used the "SN76489A" in tandem with the YM2612 (as will be reflected in the VGM file)?
<cr1901_modern> s/?/./
<whitequark> are these counterfeited?
<cr1901_modern> which chips?
<whitequark> SN76489A
<cr1901_modern> No, Idk why I put them in quotes
<cr1901_modern> Oh, I'm not sure... paging Lord_Nightmare
<whitequark> ok sure
<cr1901_modern> Oh cool, I forgot Snow Bros was YM3812... sounds great on the gateway
<cr1901_modern> whitequark: Btw, something you might find amusing. There's this old Genesis game I like called Sword Of Vermilion. Not a great game by any standards, but kickass music. >>
<cr1901_modern> One of the tracks has a... problem when played on Genesis hardware.
<cr1901_modern> The music driver programmer programmed the pitch to increase each time the music looped.
<cr1901_modern> But never added a termination condition to reset the pitch
<cr1901_modern> If you keep playing the song long enough, the poor YM2612 emits horrifying sounds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaXsqKHnzxg
<cr1901_modern> until it overflows and loops back down to the lowest pitch
<whitequark> lol
<cr1901_modern> About 40 minutes of listening, the chip makes it back to the starting pitch
<cr1901_modern> but... the instruments are still worse for the wear
<Lord_Nightmare> those sn76489a chips, i can't tell if legit or not
<Lord_Nightmare> i'm not familiar with the correct markings on those
<Lord_Nightmare> i think those are remarked
<Lord_Nightmare> but i'm not sue
<Lord_Nightmare> sure
<whitequark> hmm
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<cr1901_modern> ej5: Do you know of any home computers that used the Philips chips used in the Sound Blaster/CMS?
<cr1901_modern> Or would they be completely obscure chips if Creative didn't use them?
<ej5> hmmm, there was one machine that used it
<ej5> can't remember offhand
<ej5> it's in the wikipedia article ;)
<cr1901_modern> ahhh
<cr1901_modern> why would I check that first when I can ask someone else first :)?
<ej5> sweet, internet browser works
<mofh> cr1901_modern: which Phillips chips specifically?
<cr1901_modern> Hmmm TIL that Sound Blasters after 2.0 don't _have_ these chips
<cr1901_modern> I didn;t know vcfed had an IRC channel
<cr1901_modern> Might need to stop by... wanted to ask mbbrutman something, but since AIM is gone, I only have email to contact him lol
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<TD-Linux> where is it?
<cr1901_modern> slashnet
<TD-Linux> wow now that's retro