ChanServ changed the topic of ##yamahasynths to: Channel dedicated to questions and discussion of Yamaha FM Synthesizer internals and corresponding REing. Discussion of synthesis methods similar to the Yamaha line of chips, Sound Blasters + clones, PCM chips like RF5C68, and CD theory of operation are also on-topic. Channel logs: https://freenode.irclog.whitequark.org/~h~yamahasynths
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<cr1901_modern>
ValleyBell: You may wish to update segaretro w/ what you just told me :P
<cr1901_modern>
for some value of "just"
<fseidel>
andlabs: just took a look, Doom RR has identical music to the release music
<fseidel>
(to my ears anyway, there may be some slight difference somewhere but it sounded the same)
<cr1901_modern>
Basically it sounds like ass. Literally.
<cr1901_modern>
The bootleg Duke Nukem 3D's soundtrack is worse tho IMO
<fseidel>
most TecToy games have abysmal soundtracks
<fseidel>
the duke port is actually pretty impressive, it's a shame no one at TecToy seems to have had any idea how to program FM
<cr1901_modern>
Looks like it genuinely runs at 60fps and drops a few frames here and there if it knows it can't finish in time
<andlabs>
is it actually duke3d though
<andlabs>
or is it custom maps
* cr1901_modern
shrugs
<cr1901_modern>
From what I can gather 3d on the Genesis alone tends to be a huge hack anyway- it's blitting pixel strips to the screen in a controlled manner, and not much of the model=>world=>view=>projection=>rasterize pipeline.
<cr1901_modern>
That's why you only see 3D walls :P
<Wohali>
it's all about the parallax
<fseidel>
it's basically wolfenstein 3d with a duke skin
<fseidel>
still pretty neat considering the fact that the genesis doesn't have a bitmap mode
<Lord_Nightmare>
doom 32x "mother of god, it's all toilet sounds!"
<fseidel>
but yeah, genesis duke3D (and wolfenstein by extension) aren't really 3D at all, they're 2D maps projected into 3D space, with distance from a wall determining the wall's height
<cr1901_modern>
contrast to, say, Star Fox, which has a true (fixed point) software 3d pipeline on the SuperFX chip
<cr1901_modern>
Not sure what SuperFX DOOM does... maybe a hybrid of the Genesis hack for the walls, and matrix muls for everything else?
<cr1901_modern>
I know the DOOM port for SNES* wasn't a source port
<Lord_Nightmare>
IIRC one of the DOOM ports, i don't remember which one, uses actual 3d geometry instead of sectors/etc
<Lord_Nightmare>
one of the console ports I think?
<Lord_Nightmare>
not sure
<fseidel>
PC Doom is all "fake" 3D
<fseidel>
so I'd assume FX doom is too
<cr1901_modern>
>PC Doom is all "fake" 3D
<cr1901_modern>
Wait WHAT?
* cr1901_modern
has never played Doom beyond the demo
<cr1901_modern>
So PC Doom doesn't do matrix calculations to position geometry?
<cr1901_modern>
I know it does BSP
<fseidel>
there's no height
<cr1901_modern>
(though, tbf you don't need 3d to do BSP)
<fseidel>
all the maps are 2D
<cr1901_modern>
... huh
<fseidel>
height is only an illusion baked into textures + enemy position
<cr1901_modern>
Then how are stairs implemented?
<fseidel>
they're just a hardcoded effect
<fseidel>
you can never end up on top of another area
<fseidel>
because the maps are really 2D
<fseidel>
think of the stairs as an interesting floor texture
<cr1901_modern>
I'd have to see a video to understand
<cr1901_modern>
but well, illusion shattered
<fseidel>
it's REALLY convincing :-)
<fseidel>
the easiest way to see it is to notice that when you get on an elevator and change levels, you always exit on a different side
<fseidel>
it's because you can't be standing over the area you were in
<cr1901_modern>
so if I go up the "stairs" and turn around, why does the map look like it's lower than me?
<fseidel>
it's a graphical trick
<cr1901_modern>
or why do I perceive a height difference*
<fseidel>
they do some perspectiev calculations
<fseidel>
but all location data is stored on a 2D grid
<fseidel>
(brb)
<cr1901_modern>
hmmm
<ej5>
yeah i think they store a height field for each sector
<ej5>
probably floor height and ceiling height
<ej5>
then when you ray cast and you hit the edge of a sector, you check the relative heights to figure out if you need to keep going or not
<ej5>
iirc dark forces used a similar engine but they extended it so you could have overlapping areas
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<fseidel>
yeah, that's how it works
<fseidel>
the other thing to notice is the area of e1m1 where there's an enemy high up in that room right before the door to the secret area
<fseidel>
you can't look up to hit him, but shooting straight kills him
<fseidel>
because hit detection is done on vertical columns
<cr1901_modern>
>Publication date: August 1995 ._. ... wow, I was... *counts* 5 back then
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<cr1901_modern>
nukeykt: This is a stretch, but have you ever looked into how OPN music can be played on OPL3 (and better than the Genecyst implementation of that concept)?
<cr1901_modern>
Mainly b/c I think it's funny :)
<nukeykt>
Nope. OPL3 does not have all algorithms that OPN provides
<cr1901_modern>
Even so, wondering how close you can get it to sound. Surely someone can do a better job than that trainwreck in Genecyst
<ValleyBell>
You could probably get a bit closer by manually tweaking instruments.
<cr1901_modern>
ValleyBell: Based on what you said, GEMS tempo is inversely proportional to the VSYNC rate?
<cr1901_modern>
If I were doing a driver, there would be a second level of indirection- all commands would be done for "n units of time", and how long 1 "unit of time" is would be a user-adjustable RAM variable.
<cr1901_modern>
>While the YM2612 can be set to interrupt a CPU when a timer reaches zero, sadly Sega did not make this connection on the Mega Drive, requiring timers to be checked in software. <-- Also, go to helL Sega
<cr1901_modern>
Maybe that explains why SMPS repeats everything every 5 VSYNCs to do PAL correction rather than using a timebase w/ superior granularity
<Lord_Nightmare>
nukeykt: thanks for the vrc7 info, this definitely works, but the address map seems very weird in the grounded-pin-15 mode, there might be a timing issue with the probing setup though
<nukeykt>
What's weird with address map?
<Lord_Nightmare>
not sure yet. stuff doesn't do what it should when writing to different offsets. might be a problem with the test jig
<nukeykt>
In this mode VRC7 is basically YM2413 without rhythm output pin and with different patches. Number of voices increases to 9 unless you enable rhythm mode
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<ValleyBell>
cr1901_modern: Actually, there some variants of SMPS Z80 that use the YM2612 timers.
<ValleyBell>
About GEMS tempo: The sequences use "Beats per Minute", because that's what is commonly used in music tools.
<ValleyBell>
One beat has 24 ticks.
<ValleyBell>
and GEMS can only advance 0 or 1 ticks after each VSYNC
<ValleyBell>
thus you can't play faster than 150 BPM
<ValleyBell>
(150 BPM at 24 ticks per beat equals 60 ticks per second)
<ValleyBell>
For a custom sound driver, having custom "ticks per beat" resolutions might be nice, but that just makes the code a lot more complicated and/or slower.
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<andlabs>
also as for channel 3 multi-frequency mode
<andlabs>
I actually know of one notable song that uses it
<fseidel>
oh neat, I never knew that was doing the special 3 channel mode
<fseidel>
I was always surprised that feature was so rarely used, it seems very useful
<andlabs>
considering that it was using all six channels of audio available on the YM2203 period, it didn't have much choice, apart from using one of those harmonized voices
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incomprehensibly is now known as glowcoil
<cr1901_modern>
incomprehensibly is an amazing name... glowcoil's pretty good too :P
<glowcoil>
thanks lol, i've been incomprehensibly on irc for a long time but glowcoil matches what i am elsewhere
<cr1901_modern>
Assuming you're here b/c of the Snark Barker tweet
<glowcoil>
yeah
<cr1901_modern>
Over 30 ppl signed up. For around 50 boards ._.
<glowcoil>
that's awesome
<andlabs>
that was fast
<andlabs>
were either of them lgr or the 8-bit guy?
<cr1901_modern>
no
<andlabs>
:V
<cr1901_modern>
lgr was tagged in but seemed to ignore it... ahhh well
<andlabs>
well he is a busy man
<andlabs>
I think
<TD-Linux>
some of those people may be after assembled boards instead
<cr1901_modern>
I shouldn't be annoyed, but I was annoyed to find out lgr keeps most of his vintage stuff in a public storage unit where he makes his videos
<cr1901_modern>
Objectively, ppl can do what they want w/ their vintage collection.
<andlabs>
the only part of that sentence that concerns me is the "public" part
<cr1901_modern>
s/public//
<cr1901_modern>
I was thinking of Public Storage the brand
<cr1901_modern>
andlabs: I can't find where I talked about it in my own logs, so let me just give a TLDR...
<cr1901_modern>
His videos are meant for a general audience, and I can't really get into them knowing that they (over in some cases)simplify what's really happening. And I know I can't point that out in good faith without people rightfully pointing out I'm being pedantic.
<andlabs>
that's ok
<cr1901_modern>
So I just avoid his content to avoid the temptation to "well ackshually"
<andlabs>
you aren't the only one who does that
<andlabs>
he doesn't try to be flat out wrong which I can appreciate
<andlabs>
but no, I'm not entirely convinced he can explain FM synthesis like he said he wanted to do months ago and never got around to
<andlabs>
then again
<cr1901_modern>
His "how 8 bit sprites work" video is demonstratably wrong from the screencap YT chose alone
<andlabs>
he'd probably limit himself to OPL, because AdLib/SoundBlaster
<cr1901_modern>
there aren't 3 sprites on the screen in the screencap
<andlabs>
I didn't grow up with OPL
<andlabs>
I don't particularly care
<cr1901_modern>
hah
<andlabs>
honestly I sometimes imagine if the PC got the short end of the stick
<cr1901_modern>
I mostly grew up w/ the Genesis chip
<TD-Linux>
I grew up with none
<andlabs>
OPM and OPN was on every other platform (except amiga and atari st)
<andlabs>
(and macintosh)
<andlabs>
(and wow the west was super short changed)
<andlabs>
I do appreciate the 8-Bit Keys episodes featuring OPL-based keyboards
<cr1901_modern>
Maybe it was an "East vs West market"
<andlabs>
because it makes me feel like Yamaha had secret sauce FM voices that sounded above and beyond what most OPL soundtracks sound like to me
<TD-Linux>
it's more that the west had cheaper computers
<cr1901_modern>
They're bad, but at least official English docs for OPL exist
<glowcoil>
music theory youtube is the same way
<andlabs>
like
<andlabs>
seriously
<glowcoil>
my music friends all hate the big youtubers for the same reasons
<andlabs>
the 100-voice keyboards that use a YM2413
<cr1901_modern>
TD-Linux: As bad as the datasheets are, Yamaha wouldn't have done that w/o a market
<andlabs>
I would have been fooled
<cr1901_modern>
I think
<andlabs>
I would ahve to link his video to show an example though
<cr1901_modern>
OPM got an English datasheet b/c literally f***ing every arcade cabinet in the 80's had one
* cr1901_modern
exaggerates
<cr1901_modern>
But I think the first arcade board to use OPM was Atari System I, which was made in the west
<andlabs>
honestly I'm starting to wonder if we're all just overstating what four-op FM is capable of
<cr1901_modern>
overstating?
<andlabs>
maybe we're blinded by genesis nostalgia into thinking four-op FM is more capable of being a high quality professional sound producer than it actually is
<andlabs>
I can start hearing where an FM voice stops sounding realistic, for instance
<andlabs>
IDK
<andlabs>
maybe I'm talking nonsense
<cr1901_modern>
I don't think that matters all that much, when the stuff FM is good at creates the music that's most aesthetically pleasing to me. And it's music that can't be easily replicated any other way
<andlabs>
all I know is that I bought a Yamaha FB-01 (YM2151)
<andlabs>
and no one can stop me
<cr1901_modern>
I need just a plain midi keyboard for cheap
<cr1901_modern>
it just outputs MIDI messages to a host computer, and then some software redirects it to another MIDI device that has a YM2151 or whatever attached
<cr1901_modern>
I. Can. Not. Get. Work. Done. In. A. Tracker.
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<cr1901_modern>
Their UIs are awful
<andlabs>
then just get one o.o
<andlabs>
they haven't stopped making those, and I'm sure there are some cheap ones
<andlabs>
they're usually called MIDI Controllers, if you're having trouble finding them
<cr1901_modern>
this was a roundabout way of asking "do you have any suggestions. I'm clueless about MIDI"
<cr1901_modern>
thanks
<Wohali>
cr1901_modern: keyboard as in piano keyboard?
<cr1901_modern>
Wohali: Yes
<Wohali>
do you care how many ocatves?
<Wohali>
how much budget do you have?
<cr1901_modern>
2 is fine... low hundreds...
<Wohali>
do you care about full keys vs. half size?
<cr1901_modern>
I've never used a half size one, so Idk what the ergonomics would be like