ChanServ changed the topic of ##yamahasynths to: Channel dedicated to questions and discussion of Yamaha FM Synthesizer internals and corresponding REing. Discussion of synthesis methods similar to the Yamaha line of chips, Sound Blasters + clones, PCM chips like RF5C68, and CD theory of operation are also on-topic. Channel logs: https://freenode.irclog.whitequark.org/~h~yamahasynths
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<Wohali>
cr1901_modern1: looks like we have 77 orders?
<Wohali>
+ mine = 78.....
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<Wohali>
2 duplicate orders for qty 1 each
<Wohali>
that still leaves us 1 short. :(
<Wohali>
cr1901_modern1: so the only option I could see would be to tell whomever placed the very last order "sorry, you missed the cutoff," or I order 100 boards and we keep some stock, I sell them at a lsightly higher rate.
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<Wohali>
cr1901_modern1: i need tog et the order in tomorrow, so, let me know what you prefer. I'll get pricing info as well.
<andlabs>
massive success
<andlabs>
:V
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<Wohali>
cr1901: you there?
<cr1901>
Wohali: For only two mins
<Wohali>
20:08 <Wohali> 2 duplicate orders for qty 1 each
<Wohali>
20:08 <Wohali> that still leaves us 1 short. :(
<Wohali>
20:10 <Wohali> cr1901_modern1: so the only option I could see would be to tell whomever placed the very last order "sorry, you missed the cutoff," or I order 100 boards and we keep some stock, I sell them at a lsightly higher rate.
<Wohali>
cr1901: so what do you think we should do, boot someone out of the order, or bump it up to 100? the extra boards I'd have to eat the cost on and sell later.
<cr1901>
Do you have a preference for which option you want to do? I guess I could only purchase 1 board to make it an even 75
<Wohali>
not crazy about doing that, but especially not crazy about bumping someone out of the order
<Wohali>
well my order isn't in there
<Wohali>
so we need 74 boards
<Wohali>
+ mine that isn't lsited
<cr1901>
I'd rather take two boards off the two ppl who ordered 5, tbh :P
<Wohali>
vs. last person to place an order loses? That seems unfair to me.
<cr1901>
I guess I'll reopen the form tomorrow and make sure to observe it more closely
<cr1901>
I don't really like either option presented either
<TD-Linux>
did you take payment? it's very likely at least 1 person won't pay
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<TD-Linux>
also I don't know what pcb house you picked but many of them send extras
<Wohali>
actually that's a good idea. I'll post the actual Paypal form and limit the inventory to 75.
<Wohali>
i won't get extras from this one.
<Wohali>
cr1901: you ok with that? ^^^
<cr1901>
Yes, fine with me
<cr1901>
crisis averted :)
* TD-Linux
guesses jlcpcb
<Wohali>
great, i'll get the order in tonight and get you the link to share with the list soon
<Wohali>
yup
<cr1901>
The Silly Valley ad machine has been targeting jlcpcb heavily to me
<Wohali>
no point in on-shore for this
<cr1901>
guess I should take a look
<Wohali>
i have other chinese options tho like allpcb
<whitequark>
i like dirtypcbs personally, but for smaller orders
<Wohali>
seeed took 2 extra *months* to send me b oards last time, so they are no longer on my short list
<Wohali>
whitequark: does dirtypcbs do gold fingers + chamfer?
<whitequark>
oh, right
<whitequark>
iirc no
<Wohali>
didn't see it on their form.
<whitequark>
sorry, i forgot it's a cardedge
<Wohali>
even without that, dirtypcbs wants ~$100 US more than jlcpcb list price
<cr1901>
and OshPark would likely want $250 more than the dirtypcbs prices
<Wohali>
oshpark is *not* where you go for big orders.
<Wohali>
you go to oshpark if you want purple pcbs in very small quantity and have an aversion to overseas
<cr1901>
It's what I'm used to, okay? Don't judge me :P
<Wohali>
anyway. will get this order off tonight. :)
* cr1901
is silently judged
<Wohali>
nah. i just wish my local PCB houses (like, physically local to me) hadn't all closed up shoop.
<TD-Linux>
cr1901, no, oshpark is fine!
<whitequark>
oshpark is rather expensive
<TD-Linux>
I use it all the time
<TD-Linux>
the square inch charging makes it *awesome* for small boards
<TD-Linux>
and horrible for big boards like the snark barker
<Wohali>
if you live outside of the US oshpark isn't a great choice either.
<cr1901>
All very valid points
<Wohali>
since shipping becomes a big delay and cost concern
<TD-Linux>
europe has aisler which is similar
<TD-Linux>
my default is pcbway, they are very similar to jlcpcb though. slightly more expensive, will do really weird shapes
<Wohali>
isn't pcbway == allpcb?
<Wohali>
trying to recall
<TD-Linux>
looking at the websites, probably
<Wohali>
yeah, they're good too
<Lord_Nightmare>
Stilett0: do you know 23 other people who want a snoot bloober pcb?
<cr1901>
Lord_Nightmare: I posted on vogons in the thread about the run
<cr1901>
I appear to have gotten 0 interest
<cr1901>
maybe b/c I'm not part of the in-group or something :P?
<Wohali>
TD-Linux: heh, for this order, jlcpcb also coming in $100 cheaper list price.
<TD-Linux>
you could just order 100 and let more orders trickle in
<Wohali>
yeah, but I'm fronting that dough. I will think about it.
<cr1901>
I dont blame Wohali one iota for not wanting to be a makeshift JIT inventory system
<cr1901>
err, I think I got that backwards
<Wohali>
eh, it's $60 more for another 25 boards. I might do it.
<TD-Linux>
AOT inventory system
<cr1901>
well "JIT inventory" is an actual technical term in operations research
<cr1901>
Idk if AOT inventory caught on
<Wohali>
fine, I'll get 100 boards. Per-board price is about a quarter cheaper, whcih will cover the cost of fully testing the boards with flying probes (vs. random test).
<Wohali>
I may not be able to get the actual purchasing portal done before my trip, just because I want to have accurate shipping estimates. I'll decide later tonight.
<Wohali>
(I have a bunch of small boxes I can repurpose as packaging material, but only by not assembling them and just folding them. They're only like 4x6 assembled.
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<Wohali>
cr1901: OK, PCBs ordered. I'll have them by end of next week, latest.
<Wohali>
ej5: do you recommend the chinese 80c51 clones or your code?
<ej5>
do you mean the sb 2.0 dsp chips from china/ebay/utsource?
<Wohali>
yes
<ej5>
either one works fine, i haven't found any compatibility problems with the provided hex file
<Wohali>
you suggest the 2.0 dsp chips have more functionality
<ej5>
the hex file was dumped from a crappy cheap chinese card and RE'd/modded by me to work on the snark barker
<ej5>
the 2.0 dsp chips are going to be more accurate to the original
<balrog>
yeah unfortunately the only real SB dumps we have are very recent ones, ones that are way too new for these cards
<balrog>
the 2.0 DSP chips aren't easily dumpable
<ej5>
implant rom and all that
<ej5>
i've got some ideas, and i've partially reverse engineered that variant of 80c51
<whitequark>
you could send me them
<ej5>
current plan is to configure it to use an external memory, feed it NOPs, and then probe each bit of the ROM output before the transmission gate that puts it on the data bus
<whitequark>
i am gearing up to dump implant roms
<whitequark>
directly that is
<balrog>
how exactly?
<ej5>
TBH if you have bought the ones from utsource, they seem to be legit
<whitequark>
balrog: stain or possibly sem
<balrog>
whitequark: oh nice
<whitequark>
currently setting up a lab
<balrog>
and yeah, utsource seems to be reselling recycled crap
<whitequark>
well, a contractor is doing that
<ej5>
i've never heard of the staining working, at least that's what digshadow says
<whitequark>
i am in contact with digshadodw
<balrog>
ej5: oh it's worked but it's tricky to pull off
<ej5>
balrog, actually the packaging looks super clean, i don't think these were pulls, i think they were excess inventory
<balrog>
oh hah
<balrog>
wonder where it came from then
<ej5>
hong kong or singapore most likely, whatever was left over from creative's last sb 2.0 build
<Lord_Nightmare>
PSR-170 is from mid 90s, PSS-170 is from 1986/87
<Lord_Nightmare>
i'm thinking of the latter
<Lord_Nightmare>
PSR-270... i don't know how that differs from PSR-170
<Lord_Nightmare>
i have little experience with the PSR series
<andlabs>
yeah this is exactly the same register setup as the 6800
<andlabs>
8-bit A/B, 16-bit X PC SP, exact same flags register
<Lord_Nightmare>
andlabs: let me state again: your keyboard does NOT USE an hd6301, i was confused
<Lord_Nightmare>
i mixed up the pss-170/270 and psr-170/270
<Lord_Nightmare>
the latter are much later keyboards
<Lord_Nightmare>
my brother owns a psr-220, which is also AWM or AWM2 based
<Lord_Nightmare>
like the 270
<andlabs>
yeah that's ok
<andlabs>
I was just curious about what that MCU was
<Lord_Nightmare>
afaik psr-230 is a psr-220 with lighted keys and different firmware
<Lord_Nightmare>
but same case and same lcd
<andlabs>
PSR-270 is a mid-90s ... not-professional keyboard with MIDI support
<andlabs>
and a basic sequencer
<andlabs>
nad lots of effects and loops
<Lord_Nightmare>
psr-220 and 230 are same idea
<Lord_Nightmare>
non-professional
<andlabs>
ok
<Lord_Nightmare>
they do support midi
<andlabs>
anyway good night for real
<Lord_Nightmare>
i don't know if they support aftertouch but they do support key velocity
<andlabs>
and Im still not sure what aftertouch even is but we can talk about that tomorrow
<Lord_Nightmare>
post-keyon velocity change (i think)
<Sarayan>
re
<Sarayan>
iirc velocity is the speed when you press the key, aftertouch the speed when you release it
<Sarayan>
(re)
<Wohali>
generally no
<Wohali>
aftertouch is pressure after the key is pressed down
<Wohali>
velocity is generally attack velocity
<Wohali>
release velocity is rarely supported
<Sarayan>
ok then :-)
<Lord_Nightmare>
nukeykt: the vrc7 patch stuff got commited to mame. cam900 didn't credit you directly, but i did, so it will be in the readme for the next release
<nukeykt>
Cool, thanks :)
<Lord_Nightmare>
(now i need to see if hertzdevil will add it to the next 0cc-famitracker release, whenever that is...)
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<Sarayan>
do we know if the AWM2 exists as an independant circuit?
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<Wohali>
Sarayan: it does, yes. look at the sy99 service manual
<Wohali>
awm2 is a separate chip from the afm2 chip
<Sarayan>
nice
<Sarayan>
swp20 is 32 voices of awm2 + meg, swp30 is 64 voices of awm2 + meg
<Wohali>
now if we can get people interested in not just opl2/opl3 :P
<l_oliveira>
I am a OPM/OPN nut
<Wohali>
man, those chips are just not my style at all (opl/opn) but that's what i get for coming to fm synthesis as a musician, not as a gamer i guess :)
<l_oliveira>
OPN and OPM are almost the same thing on how they make the music. The difference is that OPN has less voices and a few extra features which give it some extra flexibility (in exchange for having less voices it gets the AY-3-8910 functionality)
<l_oliveira>
the way the chips are controlled are completely different, though
<l_oliveira>
realtime software conversion on a Z80 based computer
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<Wohali>
yeah, not really my style
<l_oliveira>
You're more into sampling, right?
<l_oliveira>
Exciting times as people get more and more grasp of these chips using data meant for other hardware directly on them becomes feasible
<Wohali>
No, I lik(ed) the DX1 when I had one, and I do own an SY99 and a TX81Z/TX816, but I find these soundtracks impoverished and nasal, I actually find them painful to lsiten to most of the time :( I respect that people did great things with very restricted hardware, but I don't enjoy that sort of music
<l_oliveira>
well, I had a similar opinion to you before I starting having access to FM music from Japanese composers by the late 90s. My opinion on these chips changed completely.
<l_oliveira>
Then I started to think "wow OPL is trash"
<Wohali>
My favourite Yamaha synths are pre-FM, from the 70s. :)
<l_oliveira>
Even then with OPL chips there are plenty of very nice music, it depends on who is programming it basically. But OPM and OPN are more capable than OPL obviously
<Wohali>
I don't mean to pick a fight. Perhaps it's best for me to say it's just..."not for me." :)
<l_oliveira>
SY77 and SY99 are cheats though because they have programmable waveform for their FM synthesizer heh
<l_oliveira>
We're not fighting, are we?
<Wohali>
TX81Z had 8 waveforms too, as did some other chips
<Wohali>
and 77/99 you can use them in pure FM mode without programmable waveforms. AFM != AWM.
<l_oliveira>
Most times people use these SY series on sampling mode, no?
<Wohali>
Depends. I don't.
<Wohali>
at the time the waveform playback stuff was new, so of course it was the hotness.
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<rainwar>
I love FM synthesis when done well. Making FM patches is very difficult though, requires a lot of skill and patience... so most FM music ends up sounding bad :(
<rainwar>
hey I guess I should ask here, has anyone ever seen any proper documentation of ESFM?
<rainwar>
Like they have their product brief sheets that kinda briefly mention it, and describe all sorts of registers but not ESFM (!)
<rainwar>
I think I have the actual register interface mostly figured out from disassembling the ESFM midi driver, but I haven't started testing the hardware yet (still waiting for some parts in the mail): https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=37497&start=120#p738552
<rainwar>
but I was wondering if anyone knows of any prior documentation of it, or emulation of it!
<rainwar>
or actually even knowing any DOS games that actually made use of it might be helpful
<rainwar>
but as far as I could find, pretty much the only use of true ESFM (rather than just OPL3 backward compatibility mode) was its Windows MIDI drivers?
<Sarayan>
Never heard that acronym until today :-)
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<rainwar>
I think the ESS chips might have been the most popular SoundBlaster clone in the mid-late 90s
<rainwar>
When I had one I always thought it was just an OPL3, cause that's all most software would use out of it
<Sarayan>
oh, non-yamaha fm
<Sarayan>
now that's rare :-)
<rainwar>
72 operators, in semi-arbitrary 4-op configurations, I think.
<Sarayan>
neat
<Sarayan>
I wonder if it's hardware or dsp
<rainwar>
I feel like it was about 5 years too early to be a DSP
<Sarayan>
possibly so
<rainwar>
but I don't really know
<Sarayan>
soundblaster was a mcu, but calling it a dsp may be stretching it
<rainwar>
The SB Live Value I got around 1999 was definitely a DSP, and its OPL3 support was very much an emulated software version
<rainwar>
ha ha it was fun to plug my guitar into it and just play with the effects it had
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<rainwar>
woot! VRC $F bit 1 definitely seems usable for LFO reset! Wonderful
<Wohali>
i knew someone with one, but he's dropped off the face of the earth
* Wohali
sends an email to the last address she has on file for him
<Ultrasauce>
that led display...dayum
<Wohali>
yeah
<Wohali>
it was seriously awesome in person
<Wohali>
A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
<Wohali>
recipients. This is a permanent error.
<Wohali>
well, that sucks.
<Sarayan>
okay, inputs in vl70 work now
<Sarayan>
and leds too
<Lord_Nightmare>
rainwar: nukeykt's tests prove that the vrc7 0xF and the opll 0xF are definitely not the same, at least bit 0 isn't the same
<Lord_Nightmare>
its possible the other bits are?
<Lord_Nightmare>
vrc7's dac test is done a completely different way than opll
<rainwar>
I just finished testing them, posted some results in that thread.
<rainwar>
...and right now I'm re-recording the patch test now that there's finally a real LFO reset capability!
<Lord_Nightmare>
does bit 1 reset the lfo on the opll also?
<Lord_Nightmare>
i strongly suspect it does
<Lord_Nightmare>
since it resets the lfo on the OPM/ym2151
<Lord_Nightmare>
it actually does two things on the ym2151; it freezes some stuff when it is level-high, and resets the lfo on high-to-low transistion
<rainwar>
I don't currently have a YM2413 so I couldn't say
<Wohali>
l_oliveira: it's more that I wouldn't generally do an entire song out of *just* FM. Doesn't have to be sampling, could be the rest of my band on stage, recorded audio tracks, or other kinds of (non-sampled) synthesizers. I like variety :)
<Lord_Nightmare>
rainwar: lfo reset is actually really handy, since you can do some interesting effects by forcing a reset every 60hz