ChanServ changed the topic of ##yamahasynths to: Channel dedicated to questions and discussion of Yamaha FM Synthesizer internals and corresponding REing. Discussion of synthesis methods similar to the Yamaha line of chips, Sound Blasters + clones, PCM chips like RF5C68, and CD theory of operation are also on-topic. Channel logs: https://freenode.irclog.whitequark.org/~h~yamahasynths
<Lord_Nightmare> not sure how relevant this is, but if anyone plans to run a patreon in the future, you should throw together a page and submit and launch it NOW, since after midnight pst tonight (in about 5.5 hours), the rate of take patreon has of all incoming donations goes WAY up from 5% to something like 8%
<Lord_Nightmare> and if you launch a page now, even a placeholder page, you get locked into the old rates
<Lord_Nightmare> and its free
<cr1901_modern> No plans, but I've thought about it
<Lord_Nightmare> you may as well do it, just put something really general in for what you're creating
<Lord_Nightmare> creating "documentation on vintage yamaha fm synthesizer technology"
<Lord_Nightmare> then you need a paragraph description, a profile graphic ("CR1901" in courier font on a white background is fine for this) and a titlebar background graphic which you can throw together in gimp or inkscape in 15 minutes
<Lord_Nightmare> and that's it
<Lord_Nightmare> once you launch it, its done, you're locked in. you can just leave it like that with no tiers or anything
* cr1901_modern will quietly do this tonight
<cr1901_modern> did you make a patreon page already?
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<Lord_Nightmare> I did, and i know several other people who did
<cr1901_modern> cr1901 is "occassionally drawing polygons and otherwise perpetually complaining about shit"
<Lord_Nightmare> that works
<Wohali> oh, not a bad idea. i'll get to that
<cr1901_modern> Lord_Nightmare: Mind walking me through this please?
<Lord_Nightmare> let me see...
<Lord_Nightmare> first off, do you have a patreon patron/backer account? if not, create one.
<Lord_Nightmare> then go to patreon.com/create
<Lord_Nightmare> and the page should tell you what you need to do
<cr1901_modern> Lord_Nightmare: Yes I have a pateron backer acct
<cr1901_modern> Lord_Nightmare: Launched https://www.patreon.com/cr1901
<cr1901_modern> I assume this means I'm locked into the old rates?
<cr1901_modern> (How would I check :P?)
<Lord_Nightmare> yep that's it
<Lord_Nightmare> you're locked in
<Lord_Nightmare> if you launched your page and it stays launched
<Lord_Nightmare> as long as its befoe 11:59PST
<Lord_Nightmare> pm
<cr1901_modern> Cool... now if/when I ever decide to publicly launch this, ppl can throw away their money to me :P
<cr1901_modern> (okay more seriously, ppl paying me would be a decent incentive to get my shit together)
<Nerionaya> I publicly launched a patreon today and then didn't link to it in the public launch, because if people want to give me money I'm going to make them work for it lol
<Nerionaya> but good to have the option of the lower fee if things change in the future
<Lord_Nightmare> yep, that's why i did it as well
<Lord_Nightmare> this will cause a one-month big boost to patreon's userbase, i'm sure, but it will vanish next month
<Lord_Nightmare> well, creator-base
<cr1901_modern> (Linked time) Gotta say, I was not aware the YM2612 could create sounds like this: https://youtu.be/FXRCROVCSrI?t=672
<cr1901_modern> It's like a AT modem
<Lord_Nightmare> i'm not sure that's accurate to hardware, since the glitch was run in an emu, wasn't it?
<Lord_Nightmare> depends how accurate the emulator was
<Wohali> Lord_Nightmare: do i have to Submit for review?
<Wohali> (Patreon)
<Lord_Nightmare> yes, but the 'review' is done automatically by some sort of ... i'm not sure what. ai? unless it gets flagged
<Wohali> ok
<Lord_Nightmare> its usually instantly approved
<Wohali> i did it
<Wohali> approved
<Lord_Nightmare> and then you hit the 'launch' button
<Lord_Nightmare> and then you're done
<Wohali> wee
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<Sarayan> *probably* the western digital pll: https://patents.google.com/patent/US4808884A/en
<Sarayan> I must admit I haven't tried to understand the wd1772's yet
<cr1901_modern> Afaik, the WD PLL is very similar to the synchronous counter approach suggested by the NEC apnote I linked yesterday
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<superctr_> <cr1901_modern> (Linked time) Gotta say, I was not aware the YM2612 could create sounds like this: https://youtu.be/FXRCROVCSrI?t=672 <- those are broken PCM samples
<superctr_> Obvious since the drums were replaced
<cr1901_modern> Oh well that's no fun :P
<cr1901_modern> I wanted to be create AT Modem sounds from FM operators
<superctr_> probably a pointer in Z80 memory got corrupted
<superctr_> causing it to feed random ROM data to the YM2612
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<fseidel> wow, that is pretty cool
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<fseidel> your very own SEGAPCM :-)
<superctr_> seems a bit expensive
<Wohali> you're paying for his resaerch, i guess. obvs. the hardware isn't difficult.
<Wohali> but managing sample-accurate like that is not easy
<superctr_> i think you can do all this with a pi zero
<superctr_> including the latency
<Wohali> would like to see that code! When will it be ready? :D
<superctr_> when you buy me a pi zero
<superctr_> and the best thing
<superctr_> most of the code already exists
<Sarayan> segapcm, isn't that full ttl?
<superctr_> the only thing to add would be sample triggering through midi, i2c, spi or whatever you need
<cr1901_modern> >when you buy me a pi zero <-- c'mon now, it's 5 bucks plus 20 to make a usable system :P
<superctr_> sure, that's a lot cheaper than the $80 + whatever else you need for this
<cr1901_modern> I'm just saying- there's prob more overhead to getting donations for a pi zero than there is to just buying one yourself and eating the loss :P
<superctr_> but you get a much more powerful SoC compared with the M7 micro in this thing, you won't get a dac though
<superctr_> i'm not expecting anyone to actually buy me a pi zero
<superctr_> i don't need one, i already have one :p
<Wohali> it's the8 synchronous mono channel outputs that is the useful thing
<superctr_> i just think it's a bit strange, i feel sampler hardware is pointless when a cheap SoC can do the same thing
<superctr_> fair point regarding the 8ch output, the sega PCM doesn't have that either though :P
<fseidel> the quality may be interesting, I seem to recall that the original Pi had terrible audio quality
<fseidel> I assume the Zero is no different?
<superctr_> the pi zero has no built in DAC
<superctr_> you'll have to get one separately, so there are a few options to choose from
<superctr_> regarding quality
<fseidel> either way, probably cheaper than $80
<Sarayan> adjusting control points is boooooooooooooooring
<superctr_> the thing is that i think the pi zero would have no problems mixing hundreds of voices simultaneously
<Sarayan> ctr: if they're at the exact same frequency
<fseidel> so IIRC, isn't most stuff on Sparkfun like this
<superctr_> i think the 32 you get from the micro in this tsunami board is the best it can do
<fseidel> i.e. convenient but monstrously overpriced?
<superctr_> i suppose
<superctr_> you could use whatever resampler algo that the tsunami uses Sarayan
<superctr_> it's not going to do any fancy resampling either
<fseidel> these were the guys selling an STM32 with a python interpreter for like $50
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<Wohali> fseidel: I mean, SOIC-to-DIP adapter boards still sell for like $8-$20. So, yeah, agafin, you're paying for convenience.
<Wohali> But in this case I feel it's more like Teensy vs. Arduino. Roughly the same HW, but you're getting far better code.
<whitequark> you can get very cheap adapter boards from the usual suspects in china
<Wohali> But $70? Yeah, I'd probably contact the dev directly and ask what it'd cost to license his sw for cheaper for an embedded solution
<whitequark> like you can get TSSOP48 adatpers for less than $10
<superctr_> i think the software would be pretty simple
<superctr_> it's an mcu streaming samples from an sd card to a dac over some serial protocol, probably SPI or I2C
<Sarayan> sd cards are flow, so you need to manage some caching
<Sarayan> slow
<superctr_> it's an I2S dac anyway
<superctr_> buffering is also not hard
<superctr_> it depends on how much latency you want to (not) have
<superctr_> also, i almost forgot
<superctr_> while we were talking about SegaPCM, you can make your own just with a bunch of discrete logic chips https://vgmrips.net/w/images/5/5a/Space_Harrier_Sound_Board.JPG
<superctr_> and a single GAL
<whitequark> tha'ts a lot of chips
<superctr_> the entire right side of that board is the PCM player
<superctr_> left side
<whitequark> ahhh
<cr1901_modern> Reminds me how on bootleg Super Mario Bros arcade boards, the PPU would be done using discrete logic
<cr1901_modern> but the sound would be done- badly- using a z80
<superctr_> sound is often considered "less important" on arcade bootlegs
<superctr_> when they bootleg games with custom sound chips, they don't bother cloning it
<cr1901_modern> not to mention, the NES sound chip is on the CPU die
<cr1901_modern> probably a bit complicated to extract that out to discrete
<superctr_> just put a cheaper alternative there. in the early days it was probably a microcontroller or similar, but later they would just use OKI MSM6295 chips
<fseidel> cr1901_modern: wait, did they emulate the APU in software on a Z80?
<superctr_> no
<superctr_> they used 3x SN76489 (!)
<superctr_> my guess is that the Z80 would map APU register writes to the SN76489s
<superctr_> i would like to hear how it sounds but it doesn't seem like there's any sound working in MAME (and it is marked MACHINE_NOT_WORKING)
<cr1901_modern> z80 intercepted address lines of the 6502 to determine when a write to an audio I/O port occurred
<cr1901_modern> and then stopped the 6502 and took control to write the relevant data to the sound chips
<whitequark> nice
<cr1901_modern> superctr_: This is how it sounds (linked time) https://youtu.be/g8gZT1F9UkE?t=214
<cr1901_modern> The pipes are the most bastardized sound effect
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<TD-Linux> some bootlegs just would play a 10 second pcm sample of the music on loop
<Wohali> ok, Snark Barker is now officially visible at https://wohmart.com/ if anyone is still looking for one. I have about 40 boards left.
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<whitequark> wohmart.
<TD-Linux> how bad is it managing an online store? I currently sell things via forum PMs and would love it to be better
<whitequark> afaik if you're in the us the easiest way is to use something like shopify
<whitequark> at least i got that understanding while doing the research for the same
<whitequark> of course i'm not from us or eu so i can't actually do that
<TD-Linux> neat they support bitcoin. might try them. something self hosted might be nice too I guess
<Wohali> woh mart dot com.
<Wohali> TD-Linux: i just use paypal buttons, but if you don't mind spending the money for shopify monthly, it's very nice
<Wohali> you can self-host the shopify api
<Wohali> oh, i'm mistaken, sorry about that
<Wohali> either way, you don't really want to be self-hosting credit card stuff. PCI compliance is a bitch.
<TD-Linux> well yeah for cc/paypal there's going to be some proprietary software involved
<whitequark> avoiding paypal entirely is also a good idea
<whitequark> there's an alarming number of projects that died after paypal stole all their funds
<TD-Linux> at minimum I want to support at least one alternate payment system as to not entrench them
<whitequark> since you're in the us, you might want to look into square
<Wohali> if you want to go self hosted, there's magento. but be prepared for ugly code
<whitequark> i used prestashop for a non-public project
<whitequark> it was... okay
<whitequark> i mean it was pretty depressing but let's be real here, in ecommerce that's the best case outcome
<TD-Linux> I mean packing and shipping is going to be more depressing than whatever store I pick. I hope.
<Wohali> heh. stamps.com i guess for you
<Wohali> canadapost.ca has a similar tool i use for the snark barker
<Wohali> i already had a kitchen scale, so, it was pretty easy to get going.
<TD-Linux> yeah I guess I might soon hit volumes enough for endicia/stamps.com to make sense
<whitequark> TD-Linux: print the fucking labels
<whitequark> for the love of god
<whitequark> and the customs forms
<TD-Linux> whitequark, er I do, on a thermal printer with label stickers even
<Wohali> i just print on regular paper and stick on with clear tape *shrug*
<cr1901_modern> I got rid of my printer :3
<Wohali> hardcopy is useful!
<cr1901_modern> I was finally fed up w/ it. I go to the local UPS store if I need it.
<Wohali> that werks too.
<Wohali> of course i have old laserjets. they're built like TANKS.
<TD-Linux> I have a thermal printer, a dot matrix printer, and a 3d printer
<cr1901_modern> If I didn't get fined for it, I'd literally throw it out a window right now
* cr1901_modern still uses his printer for the scanner sometimes
<TD-Linux> currently for international labels I have to do some annoying reformatting to fit on 4x6"
<Wohali> ah yeah i have an imagewriter II
<Wohali> one of my oscopes has a thermal printer built into it
<Wohali> and there's the A0 sized plotter I don't power up much.