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<DJ-AN0N>
Is it OK if I delete the line "Gateway": "/ip4/127.0.0.1/tcp/8080"?
<DJ-AN0N>
It's only local stuff, right? And I don't use it/
<DJ-AN0N>
I think...
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<DJ-AN0N>
Oh never mind, I found the documentation about it.
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<mntr0[m]>
hey guys, i wanted to share some important insight. openbsd is hugely lacking in network filesystem capability but is WAAAAY more secure than linux. i need you guys to make a native openbsd port of ipfs along with pledge implementation (kernel level system call filtering) because if you do that then ipfs will be in my ecosystem of semi-audited code and it will become a candidate for a full audit by independent ninjas. i
<mntr0[m]>
predict ipfs will be in openbsd base one day but more importantly ipfs will become the gold standard for decentralized filesystems as a result of doing this the same way openssh is ubiquitous among operating systems now.
<mntr0[m]>
whomever ports a stable and secure and decentralized filesystem to openbsd will become king of the filesystem world. i predict that ipfs and hammer2 will take over the world together. one can hope and dream.
<ansuz>
what's bsd?
<vandemar>
mntr0[m]: I'm confused. Does go-ipfs not work? Do you want better integration (I think that's still a WIP on every OS, not just openbsd)? and, let's be honest, openbsd is a rounding error in server market share
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<dash>
also, ipfs isn't a filesystem...
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<ansuz>
it's in the name tho
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<dash>
ansuz: it's a filesystem in the same way that a seahorse is a horse, yes ;-)
<dash>
ansuz: does ipfs not work on openbsd?
<dash>
oh, er
<dash>
@mntr0:matrix.org: does ipfs not work on openbsd?
<mntr0[m]>
dash: ipfs is a distribution engine to create a distributed filesystem on top of a local one such as zfs
<mntr0[m]>
dash: yes it does. it runs but thats not good enough. it needs to be pledged and it needs to be peer reviewed or it will break everybodys process and security model.
<ansuz>
so, how many users does openbdsm have?
<ansuz>
is 2019 the year of bdsm on the desktop?
<mntr0[m]>
ansuz: in the big boy world (over 1 million servers, telecoms, military, etc) openbsd is almost 100% saturation of the market but they all use openbsd as a small but most critical part of the infrastructure
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<ansuz>
among my friends "the big boy world" tends to be a red flag as the place where you don't want to be
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<mntr0[m]>
dont look at desktop share as of now. if you wa t to think of home users then try to think of a future where your openbazaar instance would be 1000 times more secure. that said, the openbsd marketahare of desktops for out of band and critical management stations the market share is not huge but also growing. dont look at raw headcount numbers. every openbsd workstation is worth 100,000 home user workstations to the future of
<mntr0[m]>
ipfs.
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<ansuz>
so, would you say it's going to the moon?
<ansuz>
is there a coin I can buy?
<mntr0[m]>
becuase of who uses that station and what they use it for. for example that 1 openbsd management station might manage 500,000 servers. the guy who uses it might push ipfs to 500,000 servers just because it runs on his 4 obsd boxes.
<ansuz>
you probably want to be careful not to put your openbazaar private keys on ipfs
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<dash>
@mntr0:matrix.org: sounds like you should have no problem finding funding for this project
<mntr0[m]>
ansuz : ok dude im just trying to share my industry insight as a guy who hasnt run any infrastructure with less than a million servers since i graduated from school many years ago and i wish ipfs was ported to openbsd to address my concerns which i think are not just valid but critically insightful to the future of your project if you want it to replace openssh and shell scripts on hundreds of millions of servers by guys like
<mntr0[m]>
me and also have a developer base that will probably enthusiastically audit the shit out of your code. thank you for your time.
<dash>
(personally I'd rather see ipfs on genode but that's a rather blue-sky dream right now :)
<mntr0[m]>
dash: i never have funding issues ;)
<ansuz>
oh, it's not my project
<ansuz>
I just hang here to watch out for people who think they're really important
<victorbjelkholm>
mntr0[m]: you'll get peoples attention better if you raise this on discuss.ipfs.io or the issue tracker for go-ipfs. Messages here are easy to miss
<victorbjelkholm>
always good with more audits of our code :)
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<mntr0[m]>
i dont think im really important. i think ipfs could be really important. you talked about market share so i decided to tell you how it is. maybe you guys have more experience than me but for my billion of dollars worth of infrastructure (i manage not own) i would like ipfs to be ported properly to openbsd so i can make it part of my ecosystem that currently is too secure for ipfs as-is.
<mntr0[m]>
victorbjelkholm: thanks ill do that.
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<ansuz>
just taking the piss, mate
<ansuz>
you do you
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<cyberwolf[m]>
0/, why do you use ipfs to post pictures?
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<cyberwolf[m]>
in the sense of what for
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<mntr0[m]>
cyberwolf: its more for things like openbazaar
<natewalck>
@mntr0[m] Which company?
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<natewalck>
Millions of servers?
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<natewalck>
I don't disagree with your points though
<natewalck>
if bigger companies get on board, that gives free security and code review for the project, which makes it better
<cipres>
the /api/v0/files/cp API call seems to return an empty string on success
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<cipres>
also what would be the difference between /api/v0/file/ls and /api/v0/files/ls ?
<mntr0[m]>
natewalck: cant say what company but i guarantee you the openbsd userbase is definitely misunderstood and unappreciated in the filesystem space because of "server count". please just read this top to bottom word for word with an open mind and you wont regret just how fast it will want to make you want a port of ipfs to openbsd. you want that developer base using ipfs just as much as i do whether you know it or not buddy.
<cipres>
mntr0[m]: what's the problem for running ipfs on openbsd ?
<cipres>
i've used netbsd in the past, great system although i know there has been some conflicts between the two communities
<cipres>
and we owe a lot to the openbsd people ...
<mntr0[m]>
cipres: i want a pledged port that went through peer review for porting on openbsd or it doesnt pass my requirements and i have to continue using scp plus shellscripts
<natewalck>
@mntr0[m] American company or no?
<mntr0[m]>
natewalck: cant say
<natewalck>
Heh.
<cipres>
mntr0[m]: ok so it's about the protocol's security, i understand your concerns
<r0kk3rz>
scp? not even rsync?
<natewalck>
I am familiar with most big american companies
<mntr0[m]>
natewalck: but dont worrynits not export restricted
<natewalck>
:)
<mntr0[m]>
;)
<natewalck>
Most non-american companies get overlooked, which is unforunate
<natewalck>
unfortunate*
<cipres>
mntr0[m]: in my opinion, it won't be long before some security audit is done on the protocol and go-ipfs
<natewalck>
@mntr0[m] You do have to understand the skepticism though. Someone barges in saying "I've not managed less than a million servers since school and they all run openbsd"
<natewalck>
seems pretty....unlikely...at least without backup data
<mntr0[m]>
cipres: system architecture in this case dictates if its not in openbsd ports we dont run it on any operating system because we have to run it on everything and unported unpledged software is a downgrade in our openbsd system security and thats unacceptable for obvious reasons i cant share but you know obviously openbsd has only a core set of critical security use cases. this is a very common concern in openbsd shops but we
<mntr0[m]>
just happen to be really frustrated with our use cases. btw we do use rsync because its in ports.
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<natewalck>
Ah yea, I totally get that system
<natewalck>
you don't want to use something that may disappear over night
<natewalck>
(because of lack of dedication to your platform, etc)
<natewalck>
Well, not lack of dedication, but lack of pledge like you said
<mntr0[m]>
natewalck: no no no.... the point is they all HAVE openbsd in the environment not they ALL run openbsd... but openbsd is the deciding factor for what we chose to run on linux and freebsd etc
<natewalck>
That seems like an odd way of making business decisions
<mntr0[m]>
pledge is a kernel feature in ooenbsd and rsync is pledged but ipfs isnt.
<cipres>
mntr0[m]: maybe you can motivate the openbsd team to start learning Go and audit the code
<natewalck>
Ahhh, I see. Pledge is a sandboxing mechanism
<natewalck>
got it
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<natewalck>
I agree with @cipres. If it is something you really want, a pull request is a good first step
<mntr0[m]>
cipres: file system scalability and enterprise architecture are not priorities for openbsd. they are priorities for ipfs.
<natewalck>
If openbsd doesn't prioritize scalability and enterprise architecture, that sounds like a poor decision in an enterprise environment, no?
<mntr0[m]>
are you kidding? nothing else passes our security requirements. not even close.
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<natewalck>
I see. So you use OpenBSD for very specific endpoints, but linux/freebsd for others that require scaling
<mntr0[m]>
openbsd is literally the only option outside of exotic shit from lucent or something
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<natewalck>
Either way, if you have enough money for millions of servers, can you not spare a few dev cycles to add support for pledge to go-ipfs?
<natewalck>
Be a good citizen of open source software :)
<mntr0[m]>
basically we have a heterogeneous environment but openbsd is the lowest common denominator for all our software choices because of the porting security process and also pledge support which is a kernel feature that filters system calls. go supports pledge. ipfs has a huge opportunity because openbsd doesbt do distributed filesystems now (except sone ghetto openafs nonsense nobody would use in production because Kerberos is
<mntr0[m]>
stupid)
<mntr0[m]>
natewalck: nope. we can continue using mtree and scp and rsync. i am just a fan of ipfs and i know there are many like me that would go to management right away if ipfs was pledged and ported to openbsd like fucking RIGHT AWAY.
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<mntr0[m]>
a lot of guys at a lot of companies. seriously go ask #openbsd if they think a distributed anonymous encrypted secure file system would be a valuable port for openbsd if you pledged the code for ipfs. see what fucking happens.
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<natewalck>
Most big companies I know of use cent, rhel or Ubuntu
<natewalck>
At least ones that are active in open source
<natewalck>
I agree though, IFPS would be a game changer for OpenBSD.
<natewalck>
Did you submit a feature request on GitHub?
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<mntr0[m]>
the security team uses openbsd and if something is safe on openbsd it becomes a top priority candidate for literally everything at that company. openssh is a great example. when is the last time you used telnet anywhere?
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<mntr0[m]>
the reason why openssh took over the world is because every admins management station was running openbsd (at places like department of energy and nasa and shit)
<mntr0[m]>
dont worry about server count worry about admin count. the big boys all run ooenbsd on their jumpoffs and shit.
<cjd[m]>
hey mntr0 :)
<mntr0[m]>
cjd🔒: hey sexy
<vandemar>
the reason it took over the world is that it got ported to other OSes...
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<mntr0[m]>
vandemar: yes... but in this case openssh is an openbsd project goal and distributed filesysyems is an ipfs project goal. thats why openbsd doesnt have a distributed filesystem and ipfs doesn't write crypto libraries like libressl or crypto algorithms like blowfish.
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<mntr0[m]>
so my personal opinion looking at tge ipfs target audience is that ipfs devs shoukd port to openbsd and i even suggest using openbsd as your development platforms so your security supply chain and tool chain is more secure.
<mntr0[m]>
thats just IMHO
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<mntr0[m]>
i want to see ipfs using libressl and pkedge support running on openbsd and then the world will finally be in balance for all humanity
<mntr0[m]>
err pledge(8)
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<lgierth>
mntr0[m]: there is no ssl in ipfs
<lgierth>
from what i know, go-ipfs should build for openbsd just fine
<lgierth>
it's just not an officially supported platform yet
<lgierth>
(sorry about ansuz's trolling earlier)
<lgierth>
actually there might be ssl usage soon (for the websockets transport, but also simply as a crypto channel) but we'll be using go's stdlib tls impls there
<vandemar>
I kinda wish it would use noise/sodium/nacl instead, but I don't know if there are go bindings for those
<mntr0[m]>
lgierth: ok i was just assuming about ssl. pretty much talking out my ass for no good reason.
<mntr0[m]>
vandemar: all good choices but libressl has the advantage of being a closer drop in for openssl which allows for greater platform portability in the sense that you can compile for your preferred libraries and most systems already have openssl so if you use libressl that gives other people sone advantages... ooenbsd forked ooenssl for that reason. nacl and sodium and stuff are totally reasonable too. i just hate openssl.
<lgierth>
vandemar: the go stdlib primitives are fine. good people working on them
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<vandemar>
oh, just the primitives, not tls1.2/1.3?
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<lgierth>
and go stdlib means it's written in go and comes with all the portability of go (and the added bonus of: no memory issues as in C)
<lgierth>
oh yeah tls1.2/1.3 too
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<vandemar>
I mean, will ipfs be using tls or will it be using the crypto primitives directly?
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<vandemar>
or unknown/not planned yet?
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<lgierth>
for tls, it'll use go's tls impl, but there's other places where we just use crypto/* and x/crypto/* primitives
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<kpcyrd>
mntr0[m]: ipfs works nicely on openbsd, there is documentation in the repo. Adding pledge(2) would be a matter of a single line and changing it until it works, but I assume if there are security issues, it's logic bugs that are not caught by pledge.
<kpcyrd>
mntr0[m]: adding it to the ports tree would be a good idea, but way harder due to the non-standard build process
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<kpcyrd>
also, the precompiled database migrations are an edgecase that you need to take into account
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<lgierth>
we're still working on making that a good planning process. we're currently building working groups that are narrower in scope and can do their planning on their own
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<mntr0[m]>
kpcyrd: thank you so much for all the information. i dont know much about ipfs internals at all. i would LOOOOVE to see you guys adopt openbsd as one of your primary platforms if not your primary development platform as a lowest common denominator and i think that would put ipfs in a whole new class
<mntr0[m]>
this is something everybody needs
<mntr0[m]>
you need to focus on the critical corner cases and because ipfs is a security product your target audience us heavily invested in openbsd for their most important systems (if not their most numerous systems)
<lgierth>
almost all the ipfs devs are on linux and osx
<lgierth>
so "primary dev platform" is pretty sure a moon shot :)
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<lgierth>
but i'm all for openbsd being officially supported
<lgierth>
we just don't have much openbsd expertise ourselves
<mntr0[m]>
so in my example i have more printers than openbsd boxes but those openbsd boxes dictate how i choose software for a million servers
<lgierth>
every now and then when we break something somebody from openbsd-land shows up with a patch
<lgierth>
(often it's kpcyrd, thanks :P)
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<mntr0[m]>
lgierth : if your project decides it wants to put effort into official openbsd support the openbsd community will explode with contributions i PROMISE you. this is something we all have been kind of avoiding for far too long (everybody knows this headache) and we really like ipfs
<lgierth>
hehe thank you :)
<mntr0[m]>
if you want me to help with introductions and advocacy i would be happy to give everybody the good news in the obsd chans
<natewalck>
@lgierth Perfect, thanks!
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<lgierth>
mntr0[m]: this will probably be a good topic for a working group once the working group process is nailed down
<lgierth>
as i said currently we don't have expertise with openbsd, and it'd be a waste of time to drop everything and learn it from scratch
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<lgierth>
but i'm all up for supporting a working group that works on making it an official platform
<lgierth>
ci, releases, interfacing with openbsd package managers (i have no idea how liberal packaging is over there)
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<mntr0[m]>
lgierth: cool. btw i think youll be surprised how simple openbsd is. you will probably have to forget more fluff than learn new stuff. obsd is basic unix.
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<lgierth>
yeah that's what i hear - but currently the investment is bigger than the pain :):)
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<paralin>
mntr0[m]: any comments on openbsd vs gentoo?
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<paralin>
ok, stupid question
<paralin>
i'll read up a bit more
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<kpcyrd>
lgierth: setting up openbsd in a vm is easy, the defaults are pretty much good to go. Package management is done in 3 ways: 1) the base system. This is for essentials that are shipped by default on every openbsd system 2) the ports tree, I think freebsd and OSX have a similar system. Basically a giant makefile that describes how to build the source into a package for your system. 3) pkg_add. This is what most
<kpcyrd>
people use, basically precompiled packages from the ports tree. If your software is added to the ports tree it's going to show up here as well.
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<kpcyrd>
I wrote a build for ports for one of my rust projects in about a day using the manual, code and ripgrep as a reference. The catch is that I was able to use mod_cargo, which translates my usual cargo workflow into the openbsd ports system. This is going to be different for ipfs.
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<kpcyrd>
the way source artifacts are managed is similar to gx, but it would still require quite some effort to write a translator
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<kpcyrd>
CI for openbsd is tricky, you would either have to run your own build system that has openbsd workers, run qemu on travis or have an account at https://sr.ht/
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<kpcyrd>
mntr0[m]: I'd say openbsd is currently "mostly supported" by ipfs. It works and it's easy to get a patch merged if something breaks
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