<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: how do you like the cameras so far? from a user's perspective I mean.
<wolfspraul>
they are quite small and with the little metal hook should be easy to attach somewhere, true?
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: i _really_ care a lot in how i react when i move
<kristianpaul>
yeah, there is a space for a crew
<wolfspraul>
what do you mean with 'care a lot i how I rect when I move'?
<wolfspraul>
react
<wolfspraul>
you mean you like the feature as it is implemented in flickernoise now?
<kristianpaul>
i mean, i move camera then i watch on the screen my move
<wolfspraul>
and you think that's a good feature?
<kristianpaul>
well i dont is a flickernoise feature
<kristianpaul>
i was talking about camera with no flickernoise effects yet aplied
<wolfspraul>
ok but what is your point then?
<wolfspraul>
you like the fact that you can connect a camera to m1?
<wolfspraul>
you like to see yourself? :-)
<kristianpaul>
hahaah no no
<kristianpaul>
i mean i like see that if i move i.e. my arm i can see it just that on screen, and the movement is natural i mean not slowdown or something
<kristianpaul>
got my idea?
<wolfspraul>
so you want to say that if someone has a camera, they can enjoy m1 much better?
<kristianpaul>
sure
<kristianpaul>
oh yes !
<wolfspraul>
ok
<kristianpaul>
play audio is good at first but you eventually be bored
<kristianpaul>
video in, well you have lot to play with :-)
<wolfspraul>
also compare the different lenses I sent you, curious how you feel about those
<Fallenou>
01:13 < wolfspraul> you like to see yourself? :-)
<Fallenou>
who doesn't ?!!
<kristianpaul>
yeah sure, but with effects :-)
<Fallenou>
:p
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: for example I am wondering whether you think the wide angle lense makes sense
<Fallenou>
kristianpaul: you like to see the video running smooth with no lag, I guess that's what you meant
<kristianpaul>
btw you know what i care about when replacing lenses, i mean is not that way ccd-chip exposed some how?
<kristianpaul>
Fallenou: no lag, right !
<wolfspraul>
bah no, don't worry
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<kristianpaul>
ok
<wolfspraul>
the sensor is quite deep inside
<wolfspraul>
of course don't try to clean the sensor with a cloth or so
<wolfspraul>
just in a clean environment, at home, take the current lense off, put the new one on - done
<kristianpaul>
btw sharp one is tricky coloring images,
<wolfspraul>
tricky coloring images?
<wolfspraul>
I have trouble understanding you sometimes :-)
<kristianpaul>
I know :(
<wolfspraul>
you mean the colors are off/unnatural?
<kristianpaul>
he, i.e when you see some colored spots aorund the images
<wolfspraul>
what is the color difference to the sony ccd and cmos one?
<kristianpaul>
unnatural yes
<wolfspraul>
ok
<kristianpaul>
oh sure, sony looks more natural
<wolfspraul>
so about lenses, of course I think about costs a lot, because I want to decide whether/what to include
<wolfspraul>
basically the lenses are all cheap 80 cents to 2 USD
<wolfspraul>
but the wide angle one is more expensive, ca. 8 USD
<wolfspraul>
so that's a lot
<wolfspraul>
which means that the main thing I am interested in is whether you think the wide angle one is any good
<wolfspraul>
if not, we can decide whether the 6mm or 8mm or 12mm is better later, they are all cheap
<kristianpaul>
ha, how i identify wide one btw?
<wolfspraul>
the wide angle one is 2.1mm I think, 145 degree field of view
<wolfspraul>
it's short and has a big round glass at the top
<wolfspraul>
looks like a big eye looking at you
<kristianpaul>
shorter than the others?
<wolfspraul>
the others are longer/more like a narrow tunnel
<kristianpaul>
ok
<wolfspraul>
there is only 1 wide angle
<wolfspraul>
you can easily tell which one it is, I think
<kristianpaul>
second
<wolfspraul>
it's the short one with a big round eye looking at you :-)
<Fallenou>
hide ! quick !
<wolfspraul>
actually I should have marked the lenses better
<kristianpaul>
hmm wait i need a screwdriver for the lense change
<wolfspraul>
we may have trouble distinguishing the 3.6mm/6mm/8mm later
<wolfspraul>
but at least the wide-angle one is easy to identify
<Fallenou>
ok thanks, i didn't know there was a project already using Milkymist
<wolfspraul>
actually I read about the Apache Attic yesterday, I need to introduce that concept at Qi as well, and move Xue to the attic :-)
<wolfspraul>
oh definitely, there is
<wolfspraul>
only unfortunately I think Xue will die before it makes it into production
<wolfspraul>
and I sourced sensors too early, I am sitting on 600 USD of nice high-end Aptina sensors in Taipei, so stupid
<wolfspraul>
luckily I rarely make such mistakes
<Fallenou>
arg
<wolfspraul>
got carried away with excitement, I guess. then we checked the project and found that it's very very far from manufacturable state :-)
<wolfspraul>
no problem
<wolfspraul>
maybe it will be restarted, don't know
<wolfspraul>
you can contact andres about it
<Fallenou>
let's hope so
<wolfspraul>
he used to reply immediately, then it took a few days, last time 2 weeks, and no answer at all anymore to my last mail :-)
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: short lense is loosy
<kristianpaul>
i mean i'm screing it..
<kristianpaul>
and feel loose, also i can screw too much or i lost focus
<kristianpaul>
s/can/cant
<Fallenou>
:(
<kristianpaul>
trikky if i select some text and press del i dont behave as evryone would expect
<kristianpaul>
(patch editor)
<Fallenou>
personnaly with my french keyboard it does not behave as expected at all :p
<Fallenou>
and selecting "french" in settings changes nothing
<kristianpaul>
spanish one seems work.. hre
<Fallenou>
but anyway i am kind of used to type with qwerty keyboards now :)
<kristianpaul>
here*
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: ok, what is your point now?
<wolfspraul>
about the lense, screw, and focus
<kristianpaul>
focus is for near things
<wolfspraul>
the way these m12 lenses work is that you focus them by inserting (screwing) down to a certain (focused) point
<kristianpaul>
ie if you want do effects with your face only
<wolfspraul>
then you fasten the lense at that position with the screw
<kristianpaul>
ah i see
<wolfspraul>
the screw does not need to be tightened a lot
<kristianpaul>
ok
<kristianpaul>
screw, yeah was my fault i missed a bit tight
<wolfspraul>
in fact that will damage the threads
<kristianpaul>
oh, okay no too much tigh
<kristianpaul>
t
<wolfspraul>
yes, the only purpose is to hold the lense, which is already pretty stable because of the long thread
<wolfspraul>
you may even leave the screw out for home use, if you feel the lense is already tight/stable enough
<Fallenou>
gn8 guys
<wolfspraul>
focus by manually inserting the lense until it's focused
<wolfspraul>
for the long lenses, actually ;-) don't screw them all the way down, you may hit the pcb/lense and probably permanently damage/destroy the camera
<wolfspraul>
but it's quite deep down there, i cannot imagine you would screw the lense that deep. just I think this cheap camera has no mechanical protection against that.
<wolfspraul>
you could carve out a round circle on the pcb :-)
<wolfspraul>
wow
<wolfspraul>
andres has just come online!
<wolfspraul>
unbelievable
<wolfspraul>
must be some 6th sense
<kristianpaul>
i think
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: what lense do you have inserted now? is it focused?
<kristianpaul>
i have to said that my canon camera behave _much_ better usable ilumination that the sony one
<wolfspraul>
is the lense switching business clear now?
<kristianpaul>
yes
<kristianpaul>
right now, it have the short one, and yes i focused something in the living roon
<wolfspraul>
you mean even the sony ccd camera is bad/unusable?
<wolfspraul>
what canon camera are you comparing with?
<kristianpaul>
a470
<kristianpaul>
here i have fluorecent light btw
<wolfspraul>
also I'm wondering whether it's really 'usable illumation' or maybe something like brightness
<kristianpaul>
i dunno what kind of light is used in parties
<wolfspraul>
the sensor in the 1/3'' sony ccd camera is excellent
<kristianpaul>
bright, let me tune it by software and i'll tell
<wolfspraul>
maybe the quality is lost elsewhere, or it's not lost at all, just that the canon camera does some software tricks to make things look better
<kristianpaul>
oh yes !
<wolfspraul>
consumer cameras nowadays have a lot of software to make things look better
<kristianpaul>
brightness in sofware make all clear now
<wolfspraul>
which is actually a big problem for professional photographers, but that's another story
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<kristianpaul>
i was aboutt to ask that ;-)
<kristianpaul>
(remenber the life as you see it slogan from ..)
<wolfspraul>
I'm not complaining, they are focusing on what their customers want.
<wolfspraul>
so the sony ccd one is as good as the canon one now, with brightness adjustment?
<kristianpaul>
yup :-)
<wolfspraul>
a 1/3'' sony ccd censor definitely cannot be the bottleneck in our m1 system
<wolfspraul>
that's a very high end sensor
<kristianpaul>
oh yes
<kristianpaul>
now i can focus nicelly some objects :-)
<kristianpaul>
okay i'll move to the next bigger in heighe lense
<wolfspraul>
you just used the wide-angle lense?
<wolfspraul>
you should have 4 different ones I think
<kristianpaul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
first the one that came with the camera, I think it's 3.6mm on the ccd cameras
<wolfspraul>
then one shorter (wide angle) one, separate
<wolfspraul>
and two longer ones, separate
<wolfspraul>
I forgot the details actually.
<wolfspraul>
maybe the longer ones are 6 and 8, or 12 mm
<wolfspraul>
something like that
<wolfspraul>
they zoom into the distance
<wolfspraul>
for our application, either the one that came with the camera makes sense, or a more wide angle one even
<wolfspraul>
I would think...
<kristianpaul>
ha, higher one is fun
<kristianpaul>
btw i dint saw andres nick on qi
<kristianpaul>
just juan64bits
<wolfspraul>
both are there
<wolfspraul>
juan is another one from this group
<kristianpaul>
ok
<kristianpaul>
i see
<wolfspraul>
if you tried the wide angle lense already, did you notice a difference?
<kristianpaul>
wide angle is the short one?
<kristianpaul>
lets name it by highs or i'll get confused..
<wolfspraul>
yes, probably 'short one'
<wolfspraul>
you can see that the opening is bigger too, like a big eye
<wolfspraul>
I forgot which ones exactly I sent you.
<kristianpaul>
yes big eye short one ;)
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
sounds right
<wolfspraul>
did you notice any difference when using it?
<kristianpaul>
i noticed i can focus, ok, but the view is not wide, what is puposed to be wide here
<kristianpaul>
i think big eye is the higher onw
<wolfspraul>
the field of view should be wider
<kristianpaul>
hmm thats not the short one, is the tallest ;-)
<kristianpaul>
the eye is looks like a dome?
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
maybe you take a picture and upload it real quick?
<kristianpaul>
yeah
<kristianpaul>
better
<wolfspraul>
I should have labeled them better, my bad
<kristianpaul>
bbl (dinner)
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: where is the multiple upload link?
<kristianpaul>
ah spacial pages.
<wolfspraul>
yes. it's a little buggy too, just ignore the warnings after upload
<wolfspraul>
yes I think 3536 is the shortest and most wide-angle one
<wolfspraul>
3534 == 3536
<wolfspraul>
true?
<kristianpaul>
yes
<kristianpaul>
but is not the shortest
<kristianpaul>
by contrast the tallest :-)
<kristianpaul>
and the shortest is not so wide, but i can focus/zoom
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: can you see/notice the 1 2 3 writings in back to the lense?
<wolfspraul>
bbiab
<kristianpaul>
how much is  bit ;-)
<kristianpaul>
I *think* the default one the shorted and taller are good enoguht
<kristianpaul>
i dont see too much diference between 1 and 2
<kristianpaul>
(1 and 2) acording to my local labels some-how referenced in the pic
<wolfspraul>
ok you completely lost me now
<wolfspraul>
"default one the shorted and taller"
<wolfspraul>
wait a sec, I'm looking at the same 3 now
<kristianpaul>
( ok you completely lost me now) :(
<wolfspraul>
ok you are right
<wolfspraul>
the wide-angle onw is actually the tallest
<kristianpaul>
yes !!
<wolfspraul>
even though it has the shortest focal length :-)
<kristianpaul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
so you tried that one?
<kristianpaul>
ya
<wolfspraul>
did you notice any difference from the default one that was on the camera?
<kristianpaul>
oh, sure !!
<wolfspraul>
you should see a wider view of field, on the left/right/top/bottom
<kristianpaul>
is wide, i can get my apartment view better
<wolfspraul>
aha :-)
<kristianpaul>
yes, wider field
<wolfspraul>
so you like that, for our use case, or you think it's insignificant
<kristianpaul>
i like for our case
<kristianpaul>
i think are there two lense very similars
<wolfspraul>
so it seems for now we can say the wider the better, for us
<wolfspraul>
unfortunately the wide-angle lense is expensive, oh well
<wolfspraul>
ca. 8 usd
<kristianpaul>
i think is good in order to take a the view of the field
<wolfspraul>
higher quality ones will be even more, 16-20 usd
<wolfspraul>
maybe we can't do it
<kristianpaul>
not of course for just a single person doing some performance
<wolfspraul>
the default one on the camera costs just 80 cents :-
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<kristianpaul>
what about the shorter?
<wolfspraul>
2 USD
<wolfspraul>
are those 2 shorter ones better than the one that was on the camera?
<kristianpaul>
better in terms of?
<wolfspraul>
in terms of your eyes looking at the result
<kristianpaul>
they are not so wide as defaullt
<wolfspraul>
yes
<kristianpaul>
results, okay i liked the shorter
<wolfspraul>
the default one has a 3.6mm focal length, I think
<kristianpaul>
have nice zoom
<wolfspraul>
ahh
<wolfspraul>
but before we said 'wider is better', no?
<wolfspraul>
what do you like? wide angle or zoom?
<kristianpaul>
better for view my whole apartment ;-)
<kristianpaul>
good questions
<kristianpaul>
i will like one like the default with a bit better zoom
<kristianpaul>
wide angle is good and fun, but i cant consider using it all time
<kristianpaul>
wide angle or zoom . just in the middle :p
<kristianpaul>
is hard to say, i depends
<kristianpaul>
it*
<wolfspraul>
ok so maybe just the default lense is good?
<kristianpaul>
yes
<kristianpaul>
is more neutral, thats very clear
<kristianpaul>
neutral in terms of wide/zoom
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
I sent you a range of lenses
<wolfspraul>
the one on the camera is a baseline (I think 3.6mm focal length). Then one wider one (2.1mm), and two longer/narrower ones (6 and 8mm, I believe)
<wolfspraul>
so in total I think you have 2.1, 3.6, 6, 8
<wolfspraul>
something like tha
<wolfspraul>
that
<wolfspraul>
well, it seems we can skip over the whole lense business for now, and just stay with the 3.6mm default one
<kristianpaul>
i dont see clear diference between 2.1 and 3.6 yet
<kristianpaul>
okay
<kristianpaul>
i agree
<wolfspraul>
2.1 should give you a wider field of view
<wolfspraul>
ok, if you have more feedback, let me know
<wolfspraul>
otherwise I will just stay with the default one now
<wolfspraul>
if we go with this camera (1/3'' sony), we actually have a good basis to improve this later
<wolfspraul>
because 1/3'' is the most common sensor size for M12 lenses
<kristianpaul>
for now i'll have to say that too. ther other lenses for me a re too "extreme" in features for being the default
<wolfspraul>
and we have an M12 lense holder, which is (currently) the most common holder in the smaller lense formats
<wolfspraul>
so there is a huge variety of m12 lenses
<wolfspraul>
not so much with M9, M5, etc.
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: alright great. THANKS A LOT for your feedback!
<wolfspraul>
so our current candidate for inclusion is the 1/3'' sony ccd camera with 3.6mm focal length m12 lense
<wolfspraul>
correct?
<kristianpaul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
so I will probably buy a handful more of the, like 5 or so, and send to various people and for various reasons
<wolfspraul>
will take one apart, take pictures, find datasheets, etc. just in case
<kristianpaul>
the extra 3 lense are just for 1/3 right?
<wolfspraul>
actually I don't know
<wolfspraul>
it works like this:
<wolfspraul>
a lense is optimized for a certain sensor size
<kristianpaul>
there is few space to screw, i can get same level of zoom as with sony
<wolfspraul>
because you want the light to cover the entire sensor
<wolfspraul>
you can always use a lense that is optimized for a 1/3'' sensor on a smaller sensor
<wolfspraul>
only that the resolution of the lense (lines/mm) will then not be maxed out
<wolfspraul>
if you use a larger sensor, the corners of the picture will be black however
<wolfspraul>
makes sense?
<kristianpaul>
hmm , i said this because sharp default lense is not same as sony
<wolfspraul>
most M12 lenses (75%) are optimized for 1/3'' sensors
<wolfspraul>
yes sure, possible
<wolfspraul>
you can use an M12 lense optimized for 1/3'' on a 1/4'' sensor, no problem
<wolfspraul>
you just loose some lense performance
<kristianpaul>
so is not fair comparisn for wide/zoom. of course quailty is clear that sony beats. but i not sure if we need so much quality for flickernoise
<wolfspraul>
if you would use it with a 1/2'' sensor though, there would be black spots in the corners
<wolfspraul>
for example there are 1/3.2'' sensors
<kristianpaul>
perfomance and zoom, okay i'll all lense on sharp
<wolfspraul>
a bit smaller than 1/3''
<wolfspraul>
they are often used with lenses optimized for 1/3'' because you loose very little performance
<wolfspraul>
actually you can design custom lenses :-)
<kristianpaul>
oh
<kristianpaul>
custom = expensive
<wolfspraul>
but let's not tell anyone here otherwise we free lense design software next... :-)
<wolfspraul>
no no
<kristianpaul>
no?
<wolfspraul>
not necessarily
<kristianpaul>
oh
<wolfspraul>
it's just a bit of glass
<wolfspraul>
(or plastic)
<kristianpaul>
oh really
<kristianpaul>
hmm i wonder if telescopes custom lense are cheap too ;)
<kristianpaul>
plastic, they have the machine?
<kristianpaul>
something with polish? or..
<wolfspraul>
you can google for 'ZEMAX EE' as a starting point
<kristianpaul>
ok
<wolfspraul>
that's a commonly used lense design software
<kristianpaul>
and the machine?
<wolfspraul>
lenses are built out of prisms, glasses, filters, etc. many mechanical worksteps.
<kristianpaul>
i see
<wolfspraul>
first you need a design
<kristianpaul>
of course
<wolfspraul>
the little I've seen about lense manufacturing suggests that the worksteps are very unique
<wolfspraul>
you don't cnc a lense out of some block
<kristianpaul>
;)
<kristianpaul>
i was thiking i polish
<wolfspraul>
but anyway. I don't suggest we work on a copyleft lense design, let alone a copyleft version of something like zemax ee.
<kristianpaul>
s/in/in
<wolfspraul>
we just buy a lense, done.
<kristianpaul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
yes, lots of polishing
<kristianpaul>
i'll like see those machines, just intelectual interest, drop a pic if you can
<wolfspraul>
also ionization or whatever it was exactly to get some filters onto them
<kristianpaul>
or already know the brand
<kristianpaul>
ionization, oh wow
<wolfspraul>
I walked through a lense factory once, they didn't want me to take pictures though (I'm not a customer, so I can understand).
<wolfspraul>
it's definitely very different from any other workshops I've seen, a unique field of its own.
<wolfspraul>
but in the end it's just a simple bit of optics/mechanics. no magic inside :-)
<kristianpaul>
software magic ;)
<kristianpaul>
nah, this lense dont work on sharp..
<kristianpaul>
lenses*
<kristianpaul>
i tried both tall and shor one
<kristianpaul>
nu luck, all out of zoom, really *out*
<wolfspraul>
interesting
<wolfspraul>
all 3 extra lenses I sent don't work on the 1/4'' sharp ccd camera?
<kristianpaul>
well if you see sharp and sony, the sharp lense i really *tiny*
<kristianpaul>
not
<kristianpaul>
well i tried just two, i dont see wht the third will
<kristianpaul>
remenber the not trusty mnual?
<kristianpaul>
i show a interesting drwaing about sizes of the lense mount
<wolfspraul>
ok, possible
<kristianpaul>
i mean the lense it self for the sharp is really tiny compared to sony
<wolfspraul>
sorry I just threw together a first 'pack' of things
<kristianpaul>
so from that point  i dont think are compatible
<kristianpaul>
even if it fit
<kristianpaul>
wich actually does well
<wolfspraul>
maybe you cannot use a lense designed for a 1/3'' sensor on a 1/4'' sensor, maybe the difference is too much
<wolfspraul>
I don't even know what sensor size the 3 extra lenses were designed for :-)
<kristianpaul>
there are machanical differences i think