sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<AndyS2>
Will Schnorr signatures enable spends with many outputs from the same address to use the same public key and signature for all of the outputs at once?
<AndyS2>
From my understanding, that should be possible theoretically, but I suppose lots of things would have to be changed to do this, right?
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<aj>
AndyS2: signature aggregation lets you do that, except they don't even need to be the same address/public key
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<maaku>
AndyS2: signature aggregtion combines multiple signatures from different pubkeys
<maaku>
key aggregation, which schnorr signatures also happens to support, allows the interactive combination of pubkeys into a single pubkey which the participants have combined control over via an interactive protocol
<maaku>
non-interactive combination of pubkeys is not possible without new cryptographic assumptions
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<AndyS2>
thank you :)
<AndyS2>
maaku: was just wondering about dust sent to the same address. if you can do it with multiple outputs, dust suddenly becomes spendable. if the dust is over multiple addresses, maybe not, because the pubkeys would inflate the transaction substantially again. but of course it helps there, too
<maaku>
AndyS2: dust is dust. If it's not spendable, adding more outputs doesn't solve the issue
<maaku>
Ah, ok I get your point
<AndyS2>
I suppose you can just use a dust address as a change address to further clean up the mempool/get access without additional fees
<maaku>
Signature aggregation effectively lowers the dust limit, yes
<AndyS2>
yeah, that's a more exact way to say it
<AndyS2>
quite substantially, right? what else is there besides the signature, the pubkey, and the tx/outputid?
<maaku>
The signature is only 64 bytes of witness, which signature aggregation reduces to 1-2 bytes. There's still around 80 or so bytes that would be present for a spend
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<maaku>
You can't get rid of the pubkey
<AndyS2>
well, yes. but imagine me using a dust address as a change address. suddenly, I can spend the change and the previous dust with nearly the same tx size than a change address that didn't have another dust utxo
<AndyS2>
because I can, theoretically (not currently), reuse the pubkey and signature that I'd have to add anyway to spend the change address normally.
<AndyS2>
I just add the utxo sent to the same address by referencing its ID
<aj>
you'd need a hardfork to make existing dust spendable via signature aggregation, and you'd need sig agg to have special case handling for multiple inputs with the same pubkey hash to only need a single reveal of the pubkey
<AndyS2>
true
<AndyS2>
so I could google this, but do schnorr signatures not require a hardfork?
<aj>
no, schnorr sigs and sig aggregation can just be segwit scripts v1
<AndyS2>
ah, interesting
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<maaku>
AndyS2: Both inputs would have to individually reveal the same pubkey. There's no getting around this.
<maaku>
You can't share that cost.
<AndyS2>
right now. what stops us from adding a new transaction type that does things differently? it could be just as secure
<AndyS2>
add an opcode that loads the n-th pubkey in a transaction, for example
<maaku>
Well for one that'd be a hard fork.
<maaku>
But even getting over that, why? You'd only be encouraging pubkey reuse
<maaku>
That will never make it into bitcoin
<AndyS2>
fungibility
<AndyS2>
one of the basics of bitcoin
<sipa>
key reuse is really bad for fungibility
<sipa>
it's making it cheap for *others* to hurt *your* privacy
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<AndyS2>
key reuse is bad, I share that view. But if I can't spend 0.0001 bitcoin because it's split over many UTXOs, that's contrary to the goals, too. Maybe this type of improvement would have to be made after some privacy enhancing things are added, first.
<AndyS2>
I cared more about the technical aspects of it, anyway, though.
<AndyS2>
just wondered if I was missing a detail that would make implementation impossible because I'm not a cryptography wizard
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<maaku>
"But if I can't spend 0.0001 bitcoin because it's split over many UTXOs, that's contrary to the goals, too." <-- not really