sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<contrapumpkin>
has anyone come up with a protocol to sell a hash preimage if you don't want the preimage to be public, and that doesn't involve ZKCP?
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<sipa>
sure, but it involves a ZKCP :)
<contrapumpkin>
lol
<sipa>
though you could use bulletproofs instead of snarks :)
<contrapumpkin>
how would that work?
<sipa>
use a zkcp, but do s/libsnark/libbulletproof/ ;)
<sipa>
(hypothetically speaking, assuming an API conpatible bulletproof library existed)
<contrapumpkin>
lol
<contrapumpkin>
ok
<contrapumpkin>
I thought bulletproofs were for ranges only
<contrapumpkin>
I need to learn moar
<sipa>
nope, arbitrary circuits
<sipa>
*arithmetic
<contrapumpkin>
fun
<contrapumpkin>
so we can do the same R1CS stuff?
<sipa>
what's that?
<contrapumpkin>
as far as I understand, the "raw" input to libsnark
<contrapumpkin>
I'll read more about bulletproofs :)
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<sipa>
ah
<sipa>
the raw input to a bulletproof is a list of multiplications, and linear constraints between the input/output variables for those multiplications
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<sipa>
i expect it's very similar to libsnark, though i believe snarks can deal with boolean variables more efficiently than with integers
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<RubenSomsen>
andytoshi: I just finished watching Bulletproofs from BPASE '18. Am I understanding correctly that batch validation of bulletproofs brings validation time below that of ECDSA? That is huge.
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<sipa>
RubenSomsen: no, benedikt was wrong about how fast ECDSA was
<RubenSomsen>
ah, dang
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<sipa>
it's around 5-7 times slower to verify a bulletproof than ecdsa (when there are many proofs to verify in parallel)
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<RubenSomsen>
OK, yeah that was my understanding prior to this video. Sad to hear it is not true, thanks for clearing that up, Pieter.
<sipa>
it's still incredibly fast
<sipa>
a few 100 microseconds
<sipa>
much faster than snark verification (for this size of problem; for sufficiently large problems snarks are faster)
<RubenSomsen>
Yeah, that is pretty amazing. Are bulletproofs usable for ZKCP as well?
<RubenSomsen>
I guess ZKCP allows for interaction, so there must be more efficient schemes.
<sipa>
yes, they could be used for ZKCP
<sipa>
any zero-knowledge system
<RubenSomsen>
Right
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<andytoshi>
RubenSomsen: i will give a talk about this at a milan bitcoin meetup (i think), and hopefully i'll have better numbers by then
<andytoshi>
in a couple days
<RubenSomsen>
andytoshi: Cool, thanks for the update. Hope the video will be posted online!
<andytoshi>
i'm sure it will be :)
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<andytoshi>
i'll also talk about applications and the general circuit stuff, which i think benedikt didn't go into as much as he could've
<RubenSomsen>
Yeah, I am curious where else it can be used in practice.
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<andytoshi>
it depends a fair bit on the numbers we get for circuit proving/verification
<andytoshi>
which i intend to get in the next day or two
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<RubenSomsen>
I guess that must be slower than CT proofs, since you are not just proving a single range.
<andytoshi>
yea CT proofs are basically the simplest nontrivial circuit
<andytoshi>
plus, because the output wires for every multiplication gate are fixed values (they're all 1) there is an additional optimization that can be done vs a general circuit
<andytoshi>
which is why in the paper, the rangeproof polynomials have degree 1 while the circuit polynomials have degree 3
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<tromp>
hi andytoshi
<tromp>
having some MW discussion in grin/dev that may interest you
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<andytoshi>
oh, sure, i didn't realize i wasn't on
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<contrapumpkin>
"called Mimblewimble [Jed16,Poe]"
<contrapumpkin>
lol
<contrapumpkin>
seems amusing to have harry potter names in citations, but I guess there's not much else to do
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