sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<contrapumpkin>
so I asked this a while back, but given that a transaction that is only spendable once a month isn't obviously possible in bitcoin, has anyone come up with a clever scheme to do that?
<contrapumpkin>
I can't think of an obvious way to do it even with ZKCP or the like
<contrapumpkin>
since the ZKCP needs to be a "pure" computation, and the state of the blockchain (or a clock) can't really be factored into it
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<andytoshi>
if there were an OP_ZKP you could require a zero-knowledge proof of so many valid blocks existing on top of some specific one, which'd give you a crude clock
<contrapumpkin>
would OP_ZKP have some sort of block state input?
<contrapumpkin>
otherwise how would it differ from a more conventional ZKCP?
<andytoshi>
it differs in that the blockchain is validating it
<contrapumpkin>
oh fair enough, because I don't have an obvious counterparty with ZKCP
<andytoshi>
rather than a counterparty. if you have a trusted counterparty available you can do this with ZKCP
<contrapumpkin>
the issue with OP_ZKP is that the thing being proved might be huge, right?
<andytoshi>
yeah
<contrapumpkin>
hmm
<andytoshi>
oh, actually i think i need witness encryption here rather than a ZKP..
<andytoshi>
and WE is much harder
<contrapumpkin>
aw
<contrapumpkin>
I really want to insulate myself from the temptation of the ups and downs of the market by locking my coins away this way :P
* contrapumpkin
writes a BIP for native support for this
<andytoshi>
lol, well, you can write a ledger or trezor app which just won't sign until such and such a time
<contrapumpkin>
no, it MUST be decentralized
<contrapumpkin>
>_>
<andytoshi>
you could put a mirror far out in space, and transmit your private key to that, then you'd have to wait for it to bounce back before you could spend it
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<contrapumpkin>
excellent idea! I'll spend 90% of my bitcoin on putting the mirror out there and the rest will not be spendable most of the time
<contrapumpkin>
I guess ethereum could do it
<contrapumpkin>
but I'm not really a fan of that
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<maaku>
contrapumpkin: what do you mean by "only spendable once a month"?
<maaku>
a lock-time covenant would achieve what I think you mean by this
<maaku>
but you can't stop someone from transacting on a layer 2
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<contrapumpkin>
maaku: some sort of periodic spendability rule, presumably expressed in blocks rather than time, but I'm not going to be picky :)
<contrapumpkin>
maaku: my understanding was that you can have something that only becomes spendable after some block, but won't become unspendable again (because all transactions have some sort of monotonic behavior there)
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<maaku>
That would not be possible because it'd break fungibility. Do it as the business logic layer on an HSM. (Although why you'd do this is beyond me.)
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<maxfp>
.fuck fork
<maxfp>
oops. wrong chat.
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<contrapumpkin>
maaku: yeah, I was just hoping there was some cleverer solution for it :)
<contrapumpkin>
I was just wondering if one could approximate those time-locked safes on bitcoin
<contrapumpkin>
"no sorry, your rubber hose is very nice and all, but I simply cannot spend my money until next year"
<contrapumpkin>
-> "alright, I'll kidnap you until then" :P
<contrapumpkin>
the "until next year" we could obviously do, but in practice you don't want one of these things to be monotonic
<contrapumpkin>
so ideally it would just be spendable for 20 blocks every 4320 blocks or something
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<danrobinson>
contrapumpkin: you can probably do this by pre-signing and broadcasting locktimed transactions with locktimes that are 20 blocks after the existing timeout, and whose outputs are the same except with the timeout extended by 4320 blocks. although this requires you to pay a transaction fee every year (and estimate it in advance)
<contrapumpkin>
yeah, so you're saying just batch them up
<contrapumpkin>
I guess that could work
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<contrapumpkin>
danrobinson: now I'm confused how you joined IRC, answered a question you weren't around to see, and then left :) do you just read the logs or something?
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<Sentineo>
contrapumpkin: nsa ... :D
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<contrapumpkin>
anyone have thoughts on ZKCSP as a general construct?
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<kanzure>
what do you want?
<andytoshi>
presumably for somebody to read the paper :P. i'll get to it.
<contrapumpkin>
their motivating examples for ZKCSP didn't seem super appealing to me, but it seemed "neat". I was wondering if anyone had thoughts of broader implications (or even just better examples)
<contrapumpkin>
but I'm not going to complain about generalizations to ZKCP, either :)
<contrapumpkin>
just hoping it gives us more neat tools for our toolbelt
<contrapumpkin>
kanzure: also left you a PM, not sure if you saw
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<maaku>
contrapumpkin: simply put this business logic in your ledger/trezor
<contrapumpkin>
well, they don't have their own timers do they?
<maaku>
they do
<kanzure>
andytoshi: sounds like he's lazy
<contrapumpkin>
hmm
<contrapumpkin>
maaku: I don't see how that works... how can they have a trustworthy clock built into them if they're unpowered most of the time?
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<contrapumpkin>
anyway, it sounds like more generally you're telling me to stop trying to put it into bitcoin :P
<maaku>
it is hugely layer violating and destroys fungibility
<maaku>
and is a weird obscure corner case to validate for
<maaku>
and ultimately is entirely unenforceable because you can transact using layer 2 protocols as many times and as often as you want, working around whatever blockchain-level restriction was in place
<contrapumpkin>
that's fine, it was mostly just idle noodling about what might be possible, not something I was planning to make into some sort of highly PR'd app for end-users, even if it had turned out to be possible
<sipa>
:D
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<contrapumpkin>
anyway, I'll stop harping on it, sorry
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<contrapumpkin>
kanzure: am I the "he's" there?
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<andytoshi>
pretty sure i am :)
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<danrobinson>
contrapumpkin: ha; yeah we've got a read-only mirror in Slack
<contrapumpkin>
is that a public slack?
<danrobinson>
no, but there actually is a mirror in the bitcoincore community Slack too