sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<Guest378>
is it better to be a wizard, or, a ninja?
<kanzure>
go away
<Guest378>
i didn't mean to offensive, are you in a bad mood?
<Guest378>
*to be
<sipa>
a wizard or a ninja? why not both?
<Guest378>
it is possible bruce lee is the only one who can be both.
<Alanius>
the jedi are both, sort of
<Guest378>
but bruce lee is real, jedi are science fiction.
<sipa>
if you're asking about reality, involving wizards in your question may be regarded as inconsistent.
<Guest378>
i was just trying to start a convo, the place was ded
<Guest378>
but the place is called wizards, and the person who named it probably liked wizards. i like to understant
<Guest378>
founder: mindspillage
<sipa>
the channel was created by a number of people who wanted to talk about far-out future ideas and moon math applications in cryptocurrency, without disrupting discussion in #bitcoin-dev at the time
<Guest378>
you're not listed as a co-founder :P
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<sipa>
i think i joined a few hours or days after it was created
<Guest378>
nice im still new and trying to learn
<Guest378>
you must old timer on irc to be around back then
<Guest378>
were you on irc before bitcoin?
<Guest378>
it seems your nick was regg'd after bitcoin
<Guest378>
oh
<Guest378>
my bad im dumb
<Guest378>
the sipa nick is new, but you've been around a while?
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<Guest378>
you changed from sipa1024 because you realized 1024 was too small?
<Guest378>
btw, i like how your ipv6 stars with 2001, much HAL, very scifi
<Guest378>
may i ask what sipa means?
<rabidus>
mind blowing shit, basicly
<rabidus>
seeds of innovation
<Guest378>
sounds cool
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<Eliel>
It just occurred to me that a chain split situation when the split has mandatory replay protection on one end a little problematic for people with payment channels?
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<Guest380>
Interesting theory: Judgement Day! Conspiracy Group Claims Bitcoin Created by Rogue AI - Bitcoinist.com by Jeff Francis / 1h
<contrapumpkin>
sigh
<Guest380>
that is theoretical idea, with regards to cryptocurrencies, seems valid here
<sipa>
please take scientific mumbo jumbo elsewhere
<contrapumpkin>
the kind of theory people like here is discussion of the possibilities for weird crypto
<contrapumpkin>
not random person who doesn't understand AI or bitcoin speculating that the aliens made it
<Guest380>
ooooh HAL 9000 got offended
<contrapumpkin>
not offended at all. It's just not worth discussing, just like lizard people aren't
<Guest380>
i dont like you judging what is worth discussing and what isn't.
<Guest380>
but whatever you say
<contrapumpkin>
there are plenty of bitcoin subcommunities full of conspiracy theories of all sorts. Just saying this isn't one of them
<contrapumpkin>
if you like cryptography and its applications to economic systems, then this is the place for that
<Guest380>
what part is the conspiracy
<Guest380>
its just a theory
<sipa>
doesn't pass occam's razor
<contrapumpkin>
"just a theory" doesn't mean it's worth a second thought. I heard sipa is secretly a dog, but I'm not going to discuss that in here, even though it's technically "a theory, related to bitcoin"
<Guest380>
n the scientific method, Occam's razor is not considered an irrefutable principle of logic or a scientifi
<contrapumpkin>
okay, tuning this out
<Guest380>
*or a scientific result
<sipa>
fine.
<sipa>
it's still off topic here.
<sipa>
now get lost.
<Guest380>
fuck off
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<Guest380>
sipa, did you know your name originates from Antwerp? SO APROPRIATE
<Guest380>
*pieter that is
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<dx25>
that guy will now head over to r/btc, where he will fit right in.
<contrapumpkin>
he probably came from there and is bragging about "haha I trolled them so hard kek kek"
* contrapumpkin
shrugs
<JackH>
I actually have a topic
<contrapumpkin>
sweet
<JackH>
considering that we are moving large parts of what we usually do, to off-chain, do things like opening up new opcodes or adding more complexity to the main layer make sense?
<JackH>
take the "moving to" with a grain of salt
<sipa>
that depends on the goal
<sipa>
my ideal end scenario is one where every transaction output looks indistinguishable from any other
<JackH>
thats more like grin
<sipa>
mimblewimble accomplishes that in a pretty extreme sense
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<maaku>
note that mimblewimble != grin
<JackH>
yes
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<maaku>
JackH: there are many different improvements that could come to bitcoin which improve the situation for off-chain protocols
<JackH>
actually, maaku's MAST is a good example of something that could also be done on layer2
<sipa>
but there are less spartan ways to accomplish the same... for example by replacing scripts with zkSNARKS (assuming that was computationally and security-wise possible)
<maaku>
arguably most of the additions to consensus rules of recent have been of that variety -- locktime opcodes and segwit
<maaku>
MAST also falls in that category, if it is accepted
<JackH>
MAST would improve on the layer2 portion?
<sipa>
JackH: what does that even mean?
<maaku>
yes, because it allows for larger scripts, better privacy & fungibility
<maaku>
I'm actually confused as to what you mean by "MAST ... could also be done on layer2"
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<sipa>
and MAST also makes many actual script executions uniform ("all parties agree to spend, done")
<maaku>
MAST + key aggregation
<sipa>
though in exceptional situations still leaks the actual policy involved
<sipa>
or at least part of it
<JackH>
I understand MAST, or the AST part as something that could run on layer2, as a script that does not originate from main layer
<JackH>
wrong?
<maaku>
There are some contracts which don't have an "everyone signs" case, so I guess I'm not 100% accurate in saying it makes all scripts uniform, which I have said before
<sipa>
JackH: i have no clue what you're saying
<sipa>
layer2 isn't a concrete thing
<sipa>
if you mean Lightning (which is the most common thing people classify as layer2, i think), its payment outputs are normal Bitcoin scripts - you can't pay to a condition that isn't representable as Bitcoin script
<sipa>
if you're talking about something else, please qualify :)
<fluffypony>
an exchange can be considered layer 2
<fluffypony>
since trades aren't represented on the blockchain
<maaku>
to some extent arguing over definitions isn't useful work, but I think I'd take issue with that. I think it's more useful to restrict "layer 2" to things which actually use layer 1 for non-trusted finality of settlement
<maaku>
but if you're talking about a non-trusted / non-custodial exchange, then yes
<sipa>
well that's not black and white
<maaku>
sipa: adam3us' committed transactions would be another approach to "all transactions look the same", although miners could always block the revelation of the decryption key. but if we had a ticking timelock encryption....
<fluffypony>
maaku: I tend to use it for trustless systems, but if someone builds PayPal on top of Bitcoin would we not consider that layer 2?
<sipa>
lightning is not "non-trusted" in the sense that it does add security assumption on top of bitcoin's base assumption
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<sipa>
and if you relax the definition to "has better security assumption than a centralized bank", things like banks with proofs of reserve may also qualify as layer 2
<maaku>
fluffypony: definitions are a human construct, we could call it layer 2. but i think it is more useful to distinguish as a category things like lightning which are non-trusted "caching" layers for bitcoin
<sipa>
or sidechains
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<fluffypony>
true
<maaku>
sure but lightning's additional assumptions are around things like timely access to the blockchain, which are categorically different from "trusted operator", which is another way of making the point I think
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<kanzure>
and not just timely access but also "your adversary also experiences similar troubles/delays" or something
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<swanass>
hey there
<swanass>
is there a test net online sorry im noob
<sipa>
yes
<sipa>
#bitcoin
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<arubi>
in "Simple Schnorr Multi-Signatures" page 20, last paragraph it says "If B returns another tuple (i'_0, j'_0, L', a', x˜'), B proceeds as follows. Let L = ... B returns ⊥." , should the second and third B's actually be C's ?
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