sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<contrapumpkin>
so mimblewimble doesn't really have much of an opinion on the underlying block/proof of work structure, right? it would easily be run as a sidechain?
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<rabidus>
afaik it would be somewhat possible
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<maaku>
contrapumpkin: mimblewimble could be implemented on sidechains, and indeed has been already demonstrated by Tom Dudzik over the summer in 2017
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<PaulTroon_>
thanks waxwing - payment channels are an obvious way to deal with low bandwidth communication, but assume the availability of communication channels between all nodes and anchoring a payment channel between adjacent nodes (radio-wise) requires the anchor tx
<PaulTroon_>
so my focus has reverted back to how to do those anchor tx's in lowest possible # of bytes
<PaulTroon_>
the idea of pubkey recovery is interesting so that we can save having to send that
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<PaulTroon_>
not sure how the probabilities work out, but I have also considered that the node that puts the tx on the blockchain could grind out the order of pub keys, if there were hints to limit the set
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<PaulTroon_>
another cool feature of BLS is you can do 3rd party encrypted signatures (useful for optimistic fair exchange protocols)
<waxwing>
yeah you'll notice i corrected myself on that :) it's indeed an orthogonal point
<waxwing>
(about payment channels vs base chain)
<PaulTroon_>
ya, it's a different way to think about a lot of crypto which assumes many to many connectivity
<waxwing>
well meh i guess only half true, but that's the thing: you need to flesh out the use case to get meaningful responses. clearly for tons and tons of txs, payment channels do actually help :)
<PaulTroon_>
absolutely, and for meaningful security it's the only way to go I think
<waxwing>
what did you mean by "grind out the order of pubkeys" btw? i don't think you could mean multisig? or are you talking about for aggregation scenarios?
<PaulTroon_>
lots of mostly bad trade offs when you don't have access to check the blockchain
<PaulTroon_>
was thinking for aggregation if you don't want to include the pubkeys in the transaction
<waxwing>
i guess it depends exactly what algorithms you're using to aggregate, in the idea scenario there's only one key on chain for a big aggregation .. but again if bandwidth is the issue, i don't know, you may need a bit of peer interactivity to establish it. seems to depend a lot on details.
<PaulTroon_>
maybe hints in some fixed size structure to limit the set that need to be checked (and their order)
<waxwing>
like in some version of schnorr aggregation you have to negotiate nonce points and pubkeys etc.
<PaulTroon_>
ya, that's what I like about the BLS - it's not interactive. Each node in a chain can add their signature iteratively
<PaulTroon_>
the papers I've read don't mention computation complexity though, which seems to be one criticism gmaxwell mentioned in his post, but maybe that's less relevant if bandwidth is the big constraint
<waxwing>
right that's the big attraction of it, but apart from (a) requiring different curves and (b) stronger crypto assumptions, i'm not sure if there are other things you need to consider.
<waxwing>
i mean i guess just from that it's, for now, completely out for Bitcoin.
<sipa>
it's also a decent constant factor slower
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<sipa>
but yes, the security assumption alone os probably alone to avoid it
<sipa>
or at least at best have it available optionally
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<PaulTroon_>
for the mesh scenario I'm considering the cryptographic security is less of a concern given the other trade offs
<PaulTroon_>
but ya, as an option or just something that could do atomic swaps with the main blockchain, could be interesting
<PaulTroon_>
I'm looking at 2400 baud equiv channels and maybe 5 or 6 hops to an internet connection
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<PaulTroon_>
but with wifi mesh systems then schnorr and interactivity probably isn't a problem
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<PaulTroon_>
then again, with more bandwidth lightning/payment channels becomes a better option
<PaulTroon_>
I'm thinking more along the lines of a side chain that enforces rough reciprocity between nodes for relaying data, not a store of value chain
<waxwing>
maybe write out a short doc with the parameters of what you're trying to achieve.
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<PaulTroon_>
will do, thanks for the feedback, I'll need to read more to understand if the weaker security assumptions are a deal breaker too
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