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<rusty>
If we had UTXO commitments (handwave), is it possible to compactly prove that the UTXO commitment is garbage? AFAICT you'd need the entire block, so you could derive the UTXO commitment and show it was incorrect. Or am I missing a trick?
<yoleaux>
24 Nov 2017 16:47Z <maaku> rusty: cute, but I far prefer units which describe or imply what they are, even metaphorically. I'm going to keep calling it weight.
<rusty>
maaku: Like the Newton, the Watt and the Joule? I don't think this is a convincing argument :)
<rusty>
In fact, I think the same problem applies to the merkle root. You can't prove it's garbage without providing every txid, AFAICT. Though that's not quite as heavy as every tx.
<maaku>
rusty: I'm actually not a fan of SI units ;)
<rusty>
(Actually, never mind, that's a subset of the data withholding problem I think).
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<kanzure>
.to rusty can't prove a merkle root (or blockheader) is garbage without every transaction, due to the validity requirement.
<yoleaux>
kanzure: I'll pass your message to rusty.
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<contrapumpkin>
kanzure: you're at ledgerx!
<kanzure>
need something?
<contrapumpkin>
nah, just recognized your name when I was looking at it yesterday :) it seems cool
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<sn0wmonster>
how feasible is it for bitcoin to ever be as inherently untraceable as Monero is?
<sn0wmonster>
could it even be done at all given the way the existing blockchain is already public?
<nsh>
completely feasible if you abandon conservative principles. CT could be implemented with bulletproofs today using a hard fork, or even a soft fork with more caveats
<nsh>
but it's unlikely to happen on the mainchain due to governance externalities
<nsh>
in the near term anyway
<waxwing>
sn0wmonster, how feasible is it for bitcoin to ever be as inherently unscalable as Monero is? :)
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<sn0wmonster>
waxwing, for a demonstration, see bcash
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<rusty>
kanzure: thanks, indeed. That kind of blows the idea of compact fraud proofs up, AFAICT. You need a UTXO commitment to compactly prove "that output never existed" but you can't compactly prove the UTXO commitment itself is invalid. handwave: maybe could shard the UTXO commitment somehow into N, then it's 1/N the data to prove any one of N is invalid, but then using UTXO commitmetns to prove stuff is N times larger.
<yoleaux>
13:47Z <kanzure> rusty: can't prove a merkle root (or blockheader) is garbage without every transaction, due to the validity requirement.
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<maaku>
sn0wmonster: (1) Monero isn't as untraceable as you think it is; (2) CT is a red herring as it hides the amounts only not the tx graph; (3) bitcoin can achieve essentially the same property with coinjoin/coinswap
<contrapumpkin>
maaku: have more references on that? I thought the point was to hide the graph using the cryptonote style
<maaku>
references on which part?
<maaku>
rusty: that's a stronger claim than I'm aware of people making about fraud proofs. the hope with fraud proofs, reaching all the way back to satoshi's "alerts", is that a full node can provide compact evidence of invalidity
<contrapumpkin>
I guess part 1. Part 2 is supposed to be used in conjunction with some sort of selectable anonymity set for the inputs isn't it, which was part of cryptonote?
<maaku>
not that you can discover invalidity from a compact data
<contrapumpkin>
not sure I follow? or were you talking to rusty
<waxwing>
i don't think CT is a red herring.
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<contrapumpkin>
like you have the ring sigs to mask your inputs to a degree of your choice
<contrapumpkin>
and then CT covers the transaction amounts to minimize correlations
<waxwing>
ring sigs don't *hide* the graph but they do seriously obfuscate it, maaku is presumably saying that CT + CJ (which is a lot easier) gives somewhat similar effects
<contrapumpkin>
fair enough
<contrapumpkin>
so I guess you end up with a "probabilistic graph"
<contrapumpkin>
where if the input set was 4, there's a 1/4 chance of each input being an edge
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<contrapumpkin>
or something like that?
<maaku>
Monero only provides a small amount of obfuscation due to the linear cost of a ring signature. For each input you select a couple of random other inputs that it could have been.
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<contrapumpkin>
it seems like tracing through a graph made of such probabilistic edges would lead to very small probabilities very quickly though
<waxwing>
i think it's more than a couple, for sure, not sure exact numbers as of now tho'
<contrapumpkin>
if you took more than a couple of hops
<dEBRUYNE>
waxwing: ring size is 5 by default
<waxwing>
contrapumpkin, yeah true but it's nastily hard analysis, because all kinds of metadata and heuristics can come into play
<dEBRUYNE>
And it's enforced on the protocol level
<waxwing>
dEBRUYNE, thanks yeah that was my memory but i wasn't sure
<contrapumpkin>
dEBRUYNE: always exactly 5? I guess that makes sense
<maaku>
However the traceability of transactions due to other block chain visible information (tx time, frequency of linkage, etc.) provides more bits of identifying information than a couple of extra ring signatures provides
<contrapumpkin>
to minimize profiling of sizes?
<dEBRUYNE>
It's not an enforced constant. People can choose something higher than 5 if they want to
<contrapumpkin>
ah okay
<dEBRUYNE>
There's talk about enforcing it as a constant though to make it uniform
<maaku>
This is without even looking into crypto weaknesses such as set intersections of the rings to provably show spentness and such
<contrapumpkin>
but if I choose 1828 inputs, it probably stands out :)
<dEBRUYNE>
Right
<contrapumpkin>
maaku: can you expand on how tx time might help you correlate things?
<dEBRUYNE>
Well, depends, if you use it once, it won't stand out
<dEBRUYNE>
If you use it all the time, it will
<waxwing>
maaku, still don't see where the "red herring" part comes from.
<contrapumpkin>
like of the privacy coins out there, it seems like the least bullshitty
<contrapumpkin>
I guess that isn't saying much
<contrapumpkin>
my sense was that it was actually pretty decent though
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<maaku>
contrapumpkin: you generally make your transactions 9-5 in your timezone. you select, randomly, inputs from someone in east asia that makes transactions normally when you are asleep
<contrapumpkin>
ok
<maaku>
you can use machine learning to cluster groups of potential spends based on features like that, and assign likelihoods of which input being the "real" one
<maaku>
it doesn't take many features to reduce a 2- 3- or 4-way spend
<contrapumpkin>
why would I consistently pick the ones in asia though? and can't I just make sure there's a fairly uniform distribution of input txn attributes?
<maaku>
That plus the veil is going to be pierced on the entire block chain history when there are quantum computers.
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