<azonenberg> starts designing mask for fab run tomorrow
<azonenberg> hi guys
<soul-d> and added to startup  join :P
<soul-d> well that was my point azonenberg  i usaly don't understand stuff  untill one works backwards and make stuff yourself
<azonenberg> Yeah
<soul-d> cool stuff so this is where  digital meets chemical ?
<azonenberg> soul-d: digital, and mechanical
<azonenberg> http://i.imgur.com/wVEEB.png full wafer
<azonenberg> I am going to be doing the first two masks by contact lithography on a whole wafer (they dont need to be very accurate and will be the same for all dies)
<R0b0t1> Which program is that?
<azonenberg> Glade
<azonenberg> free but closed source
<azonenberg> none of the open tools were to my liking so far, i'm still searching
<azonenberg> http://i.imgur.com/rTEkR.png is a single die
<R0b0t1> Are you at the point where you are actually going to etch a full wafer? What's on the chips?
<azonenberg> not yet fully designed
<azonenberg> Ok, here's the process overview
<azonenberg> Spin coat resist, pattern "dicing" mask (blue rectangle in the background, full chip) by contact litho over a full 2 inch wafer
<azonenberg> This will leave lines (the space between the white and blue outlines) of photoresist with space between them wher ethe dies are
<azonenberg> Evaporate 1000nm of Cr on both sides of the wafer
<azonenberg> Lift off in acetone
<azonenberg> this will result in the back of the wafer being solid Cr and the front being Cr over dies and bare silicon over the spaces between them
<azonenberg> Etch in hot KOH for half an hour or so
<azonenberg> actually more like 45 mins
<azonenberg> Enough to go down about 100 microns
<azonenberg> So now i have Cr over unetched Si on the front and back of the dies and trenches 100um deep between them
<soul-d> sounds like fun
<azonenberg> Next step is to do a second contact mask
<azonenberg> the pink "backside" mask
<azonenberg> align to the edge of the dies
<azonenberg> and etch the Cr in HCl : H2O2
<azonenberg> then return to the KOH
<azonenberg> now i am etching both in the center of the die and between the dies
<R0b0t1> So your photoresist is positive, turn that into a negative of Cr, then etch?
<azonenberg> but the trenches are 100um deeper
<soul-d> see lots of  fun chemical processes
<azonenberg> R0b0t1: I havent figured out all of the polarities for the masks yet
<azonenberg> in the CAD right now, filled areas are to not be etched
<R0b0t1> Well, photo -> chrome -> etch?
<azonenberg> i may invert them before fab
<azonenberg> depending on where i do liftoff
<azonenberg> anyway so i then KOH a second time
<azonenberg> until the dies separate
<azonenberg> At this point, i have 76 loose chips
<azonenberg> 500um deep
<azonenberg> with 400um deep rectangular holes in the backs
<azonenberg> From now on, processing is done by projection litho one die at a time
<azonenberg> as the process is a little more experimental (and features are smaller)
<azonenberg> I then pattern the "fingers" mask
<azonenberg> Which i havent finished designing
<soul-d> ok so  you made  the "base"  first ?
<R0b0t1> So is this etch of the whole wafer to get you separate chips?
<azonenberg> R0b0t1: Yes, as well as to thin the dies in the center
<R0b0t1> ah okay
<azonenberg> leaving a full-thickness ring around the thin part for easier handling
<azonenberg> Then i do the finger mask which is my actual MEMS geometry
<azonenberg> garden-variety comb drive
<azonenberg> 20um fingers at 20um spacing
<azonenberg> Etch this into the top surface
<azonenberg> While leaving the 400um deep hole unmasked
<azonenberg> So i'm now etching down and up simultaneously
<azonenberg> They'll meet around 50um from the top of the die
<azonenberg> leaving 20um wide and 50um tall fingers
<azonenberg> I then deposit an insulator - either spin on glass, thermal oxidation, or something TBD
<azonenberg> evaporate metal (aluminum most likely)
<azonenberg> and pattern the metal1 mask to separate the stator from the rotor
<azonenberg> as well as adding probe pads that i can test the device with
<azonenberg> Sonud like a reasonable process?
<R0b0t1> .
<R0b0t1> lol
<soul-d> sounds like fun :)
<R0b0t1> It makes sense, but seems rather convoluted
<R0b0t1> But right now you are only using one type of silicon?
<R0b0t1> What about making transistors and having to use the P and N silicon?
<azonenberg> R0b0t1: I am only doing MEMS atm so doping is unimportant
<azonenberg> i think all of the wafers i have now are P type boron doped
<azonenberg> When i get to transistors, i will be using spin coated dopants and diffusion
<azonenberg> spin coat a layer of doped SiO2, photoresist over that, pattern
<azonenberg> etch oxide in 3% HF
<azonenberg> backfill with undoped oxide
<azonenberg> Cook at ~1100C to diffuse dopants into the silicon
<azonenberg> strip oxide
<soul-d> ill leave the HF  to you though
<azonenberg> deposit field oxide
<azonenberg> soul-d: 3% is actually not THAT bad, though you still want to be careful
<azonenberg> i buy it at the local grocery store
<azonenberg> its an off-the-shelf rust remover
<soul-d> mmm ?
<azonenberg> whink brand rust stain remover
<azonenberg> brown plastic bottle
<azonenberg> 1.5-3% HF
<soul-d> ok lol cool
<soul-d> yeah ,y shed is chemical hazard anyhow
<azonenberg> At the same time, you want to wear gloves and preferably a lab coat
<azonenberg> as with any acid
<soul-d> got them  and  full face shield
<soul-d> abec1 filters
<azonenberg> Yep, me too
<azonenberg> What i am actually working on setting up is local exhaust for solvents
<azonenberg> i have a 6" duct fan but have to build the rest of the hood
<azonenberg> In any case its 4:30 in the morning and i have homework due at 1700
<azonenberg> and class at 1400
<azonenberg> I'd like to be somewhat awake for them
<soul-d> hehe
<azonenberg> so i'm off to get some sleep
<soul-d> goodnite
<azonenberg> AFKs: 503 Geek Temporarily Unavailable\r\nX-Server: azonenberg\r\nRetry-After: 21OCT2011 1030EDT\r\n\r\nThe requested geek is asleep. Your request should be repeated in six to eight hours.
<azonenberg> And who said anything about night? It's the morning here :p
<soul-d> heh true  nasty habbit i have to  night time seems to work better
<reportingsjr> azonenberg: I would say it's /almost/ morning here, haha
<soul-d> interesting
<soul-d> multilayer ion paper :D
<soul-d> would be easy to make
<soul-d> could do fast prototypes if you have reliable draw surfaces   probably more reliable then breadboard :)
<CIA-67> homecmos r147 | trunk/mems-tests/ (22 files in 12 dirs) | First draft of new comb drive mask set
<azonenberg> doing the litho for the first mask today, then the evaporation and liftoff monday or tuesday (was gonna be today but was delayed by homework)
<azonenberg> two contact masks on the whole wafer, then dicing and two projection masks on each die
<soul-d> you still where able to do homework  ? :D
<azonenberg> soul-d: Got everything done on time, yes
<azonenberg> Skipped my one class of the day but its boring
<azonenberg> its the EE version of stuff i already learned in CS
<azonenberg> But i need credits in my schedule
<soul-d> lol
<soul-d> coulnd you jsut pretend to be there and do saomthing else
<azonenberg> i took so many CS classes as an undergrad that i'm having problems taking enough as a grad
<azonenberg> all of the interesting ones i already took
<azonenberg> so i have to find another dozen classes to take over the next few years
<azonenberg> i dont think there are 12 classes offered by the department i havent taken :p
<azonenberg> and especially if you count ones like "numerical methods for differential equations" that are super math heavy?
<azonenberg> So i'm starting to branch out into other departments out of necessity
<azonenberg> unfortunately, this often results in overlap
<azonenberg> and by the time you figure out you're going to learn nothing in the class, and it's too late to add a new one and drop this one, you're stuck with it
<soul-d> heh hard to get motivated
<azonenberg> lol
<azonenberg> funny thing is, this is the only EE class i've taken to date
<azonenberg> but its all stuff i learned in CS
<azonenberg> Anyway so as soon as it gets dark enough that i can do litho without sunlight frying my wafer, i'm going to do a photoresist coating followed by my first attempt at full-wafer contact litho
<azonenberg> Good news, the feature size is huge lol
<azonenberg> smallest geometry on this mask is 200 um
<azonenberg> should probably look into buying professionally made masks just once to see how good they are
<azonenberg> 12x18 inch mask for $52
<azonenberg> i could fit an entire 4+ mask set for a 2-inch wafer on that sheet
<azonenberg> at 8000 DPI
<azonenberg> that's around 3.175 micron lambda with a four pixel min-feature design rule
<soul-d> lol wait  let me scroll back din't look for a sec
<azonenberg> And if i do optical reduction of say 4x on that mask
<azonenberg> i could do some pretty fun stuff
<azonenberg> but even without reduction, full contact litho would be cool
<cheater> hi
<azonenberg> hi cheater
<azonenberg> I think once i get the comb drive mostly working on this process
<azonenberg> i am going to try ordering a film mask set from laserlab
<azonenberg> the comb drive masks plus some test patterns
<azonenberg> and see how it turns out
<soul-d> you should make  youtubes :P soem visual  stuff with your explaination might make more sense for me ;)
<lekernel> what are the missing steps for the comb drive?
<azonenberg> In theory, i know how to do everything
<azonenberg> there are two big unknowns atm
<azonenberg> first, how i am going to grow dielectric over the chip before metal 1
<azonenberg> Probably thermal oxide but i need to buy / borrow time in a furnace
<lekernel> oxidation?
<azonenberg> second, how to deposit metal 1
<azonenberg> i did evaporation for everything so far
<azonenberg> but evaporated metal is tricky because it has bad step coverage
<azonenberg> and i'm going to want to plate the sidewalls of the fingers
<azonenberg> Sputtering is an option but more complex
<azonenberg> In either case i am hopeful that by next weekend i will have at least one die with the full mechanical structure of a comb drive
<azonenberg> at which point i can run the same process on another ~ten dies
<azonenberg> and start screwing with metal and oxidation
<azonenberg> I feel like i'm very close, the Cr hardmask for deep etching is working well so far
<azonenberg> that was my last big problem
<cheater> what is step coverage?
<azonenberg> cheater: How conformal the coating is
<cheater> ok
<azonenberg> Good step coverage means that you'll cover sidewalls of vertical holes, etc
<cheater> yeah
<azonenberg> poor step coverage will cover the top and the floor but not the walls
<azonenberg> This is, however, good for lift-off processes
<cheater> why?
<azonenberg> where you need exposed sidewalls of the resist to get your solvent into
<cheater> hm
<azonenberg> With liftoff, you put photoresist on a bare wafer
<azonenberg> evaporate metal
<azonenberg> then dip in a solvent
<azonenberg> wherever you had resist, the metal is on top of it
<azonenberg> so it floats off when you put it in the solvent
<cheater> interesting
<azonenberg> Generally speaking, spin coating and sputtering are conformal (good step coverage, bad liftoff profile)
<azonenberg> so is CVD
<azonenberg> while evaporation is a good liftoff profile
<cheater> mhm
<cheater> can you mix these techniques at all?
<azonenberg> Certainly
<azonenberg> I mostly use spin coating at home and evaporation on campus
<azonenberg> i plan to build evaporation and sputtering rigs at home eventually
<azonenberg> CVD is more complex and dangerous as it requires compressed cylinders of some distinctly unpleasant gases
<azonenberg> i think i cna avoid it entirely
<azonenberg> can*
<cheater> no reason to die quickly
<azonenberg> Lol
<azonenberg> Well, worse than CVD would be RIE
<azonenberg> One of the nicer chemicals they use for RIE is chlorine gas
<azonenberg> But they've used stuff as nasty as chlorine trifluoride
<azonenberg> the two biggest baddest halogens all in one molecule
<cheater> haha
<cheater> yeah
<azonenberg> the stuff ignites on contact with ANYTHING
<azonenberg> including glass and asbestos
<cheater> wouldn't want to breathe that in
<azonenberg> And produces hydrofluoric acid in the smoke :p
<cheater> doesn't chlorine trifluoride get used as a rocket fuel too
<azonenberg> cheater: they tried a few times
<azonenberg> it's extremely effective
<azonenberg> if you can manage to handle it
<cheater> wasn't there that funny blog post about it
<azonenberg> yeah
<cheater> heh, is it difficult to fabricate?
<azonenberg> From what i understand, get a cylinder of chlorine and fluorine
<azonenberg> and mix them up lol
<azonenberg> If anything within a quarter mile of you survives the resulting reaction, you now have a tank of ClF3
<cheater> i wonder if you need to do this under specific pressure/temperature
<azonenberg> I have no intention of attempting the reaction lol
<azonenberg> Or even going anywhere near the precursors
<azonenberg> the strongest thing i use in my fab work is 1-3% HF
<cheater> in what
<azonenberg> Water
<cheater> that sounds like mouth wash
<azonenberg> lol, no
<cheater> why?
<azonenberg> you're thinking NaF and its around 0.01%
<azonenberg> maybe less
<cheater> yeah, one digit less or more.. who cares
<cheater> as long as it keeps your breath fresh
<cheater> hahaha
<azonenberg> most definitely not mouthwash :p
<cheater> :)