<frood>
one of the benefits I see is that it routes around reliance on any particular infrastructure.
<frood>
but that might not be true for unpopular content.
<frood>
if I include an index for "carrots that look like George Clooney" in my tree, no-one but me will ever use it. which means that it's still reliant on my infrastructure
<frood>
other benefit: the root node of the tree can point to historical version of the tree, so you could search through time.
<melvster>
frood: I think I grokked about 80% of that ... benefit of which system? centralized search -- would that be using IPFS or just a normal domain with a database?
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<frood>
one of the benefits of putting a data structure containing seach indexes on IPFS is that you're not reliant on my search server.
<frood>
because the indexes are accessible so long as a copy exists in the network.
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<frood>
but for topics that are unpopular, the index may not be accessed, so it could fall out of the network.
<frood>
which means that it's availability is reliant on my search server again.
<frood>
wwe can envision some things with high utility, but low popularity that would become inaccessible this way.
<frood>
like "how to calm an angry tiger who's about to eat me."
<frood>
this is like a really minor quibble though. :)
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<melvster>
lol got it!
<melvster>
seems to be in the topic of 'key partitioning'
<melvster>
frood: about ipfs, is every person responsible for their own hash files, or are they supposed to get replicated by other nodes on the network?
<melvster>
and final question, do anyone know how big ipfs is (within an order of magnitude)?
<frood>
IPFS uses sloppy kad (like bittorrent), so the nodes nearest the value's key maintain a provider list.
<melvster>
frood: but I mean why would more than one node replicate a file ... is it part of the design of ipfs to have many seeds, or is it just pick and choose?
<frood>
it's just pick and choose.
<melvster>
got it
<frood>
it's not like vanilla kad where a certain number of nodes are responsible for maintaining the value
<frood>
it's like bittorrent. the nodes who control the keyspace the file hash is in maintain provider lists
<frood>
(actually a bit more complicated than that, I'd have to go reread exactly what modifications were made)
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<melvster>
frood: and final question, do anyone know how big ipfs is (within an order of magnitude)?
<frood>
Devs might. I'd guess a few thousand nodes?
<melvster>
frood: impressive! and files?
<frood>
no idea. also might be better to quantify that in chunks.
<melvster>
i heard on the talk someone mention 100,000 websites
<melvster>
ok i installed the extension now, this is great! :)
<frood>
ni:///sha256;aaa...aaa would seem to be broadly similar to /ipfs/Qmaaa...aaa
<deltab>
melvster: hmm, I thought I'd seen something about ni, but can't find it
<frood>
s/sha256/sha-256
<melvster>
you could have ni:///mulihash;Qmabcd...
<frood>
seems pretty trivial to translate from one to the other. with the exception that the ni scheme 'authority' has no analog
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<melvster>
could add multihash to the iana registry so the people could get a link to the description
<frood>
melvster: I guess, that's kinda subverting the ni format by moving the algorithm info to the wrong field.
<deltab>
ipfs lets you add a path to the end, which ni doesn't sem to have
<melvster>
possibly, the ietf doesnt really have right and wrong, just rough consensus and running code
<frood>
deltab: that's mostly sugar for iterative lookups though.
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<deltab>
indirection is necessary if you want to have websites with cycles in the graph
<deltab>
e.g. breadcrumbs
<deltab>
next/previous page links, etc.
<deltab>
since you can only include hashes one way
<frood>
not exactly sure how that relates to adding a path to the end of the identifier?
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<melvster>
thanks for the help guys, will ponder ... night all!
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<deltab>
frood: say you want to link to a page that is in a collection, e.g. a book, which has links to previous and next pages
<deltab>
say /ipfs/Qmbook123/chapter7.html
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<deltab>
that can contain relative links to chapter6.html and chapter8.html, whic resolve to /ipfs/Qmbook123/chapter6.html and /ipfs/Qmbook123/chapter8.html
<deltab>
afaics there isn't a ni equivalent
<frood>
that's mostly syntactic sugar for iterative steps through the DAG though.
<frood>
you can run the same scheme on ni URLs if you make a standard relative linking format
<frood>
s/URL/URI
<deltab>
how?
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<frood>
the exact same way you do it in IPFS. 1 absolute path that defines its own relatives
<frood>
also, how do you plan to make chapter6 link to chapter7 and vice versa?
<deltab>
you can access /ipfs/Qmbook123 to get a directory with hashes for chapter{6,7,8}.html
<frood>
graph cycles are kinda forbidden by merkle links.
<deltab>
<a href="chapter7.html">
<deltab>
yes, but ipfs isn't restricted to merkle links
<frood>
how's that?
<deltab>
because it has directories that map names to hashes, and paths that can address those names
<frood>
aren't those still merkle links under the hood.
<frood>
?
<frood>
it's not a directory, it's a node in a merkle-dag
<deltab>
yes, but at one level of indirection
<deltab>
the html documents don't themselves contain the hashes
<deltab>
so they can refer to each other
<frood>
not exactly.
<frood>
they refer to something that their context believes is chapter7.html
<deltab>
in the context in which they're accessed
<deltab>
you could construct a context in which the names would refer to something else
<frood>
trivially
<deltab>
that context would have its own hash
<frood>
also, this is a layer of sugar on top of the merkle-dag.
<frood>
which could be added to ni using the same rules.
<deltab>
could be, yes, but hasn't been yet
<deltab>
it's useful because it gives us a way to update without mutation or (much) duplication
<whyrusleeping>
kevina: hrm... on the pinning stuff
<whyrusleeping>
the problem here is that if even a single indirectly pinned block is missing, it invalidates any guarantees we might have about the rest of the pinset
<whyrusleeping>
we essentially at that point have a set of things that are for sure pinned
<whyrusleeping>
and everything else might be pinned
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<kevina>
whyrusleeping: correct, but in some cases it may be okay to continue on a best effort bases.
<kevina>
in the G.C. no
<whyrusleeping>
yeah
<kevina>
listing pins maybe
<kevina>
removing pins, yes
<kevina>
etc.
<whyrusleeping>
Yeah, if we're trying to check if a thing *is* pinned
<whyrusleeping>
we can return true or ERROR CANT TELL
<whyrusleeping>
which might be acceptable for some usecases
<kevina>
something like that
<whyrusleeping>
what would be useful though, would be to say "recursive pin X references a missing block indirectly"
<whyrusleeping>
and have ways to remedy that
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<kevina>
correct
* whyrusleeping
thinks about the UX of an 'ipfs pin repair'
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<kevina>
it should always be possible to remove a pin
<whyrusleeping>
as long as you always understand the consequences of doing so
<kevina>
I do. I wrote the G.C. code to be very careful
<kevina>
really case by case, what would happen if we ignore the missing/bad block
<whyrusleeping>
i didnt mean we as devs
<whyrusleeping>
i meant we as users
<whyrusleeping>
at any time a user is going to remove a pin like this, it needs to be very apparent the consequences
<kevina>
I understand, that why I suggested a "--force" option if it becomes required
<kevina>
actually, for removal I can't think of anything bad that can happen by removing a recursive pin where part of the pin is missing
<kevina>
the worst that can happen is we might not detect a block is pinned directly and report PIN NOT FOUND instead of reporting the recursive pin pinning it
<kevina>
so now that I think of it a "--force" option it not needed for removal expect to save time by avoiding the indirect check...
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<kevina>
whyrusleeping: ^
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<whyrusleeping>
kevina: The issue is that the recursive pin we force remove might be a block that is referenced by a pinned block that is missing
<whyrusleeping>
and we won't be able to tell that
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<whyrusleeping>
so while removing one broken pin might seem fine, it doesnt give the context that its removal also might result in the loss of data from other pins
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<brendyn>
Such as run a http gateway on port 8080. When you request a file via the gateway, the ipfs daemon goes checks if the file is in .ipfs/, if not, it asks other nodes on the network for it
<substack>
I haven't been able to use ipfs-api in the browser because the daemon doesn't set the headers properly
<amosbird>
by installing ipfs?
<amosbird>
oh, i see
<brendyn>
ipfs add takes a file, chops it up into blocks to put into ~/.ipfs/, then announces to the network that it has a new file to share, identified by that hash you saw
<amosbird>
ok, so I don't need a daemon to share my files right?
<amosbird>
I can use the public one
<substack>
experiencing this behavior with ipfs version 0.4.5-dev
<brendyn>
You do, because when you run ipfs add, your files aren't uploaded anywhere yet, you just advertise that you have certain files, identified by the hash
<brendyn>
The moment you use the public gateway to download your file, the gateways ipfs node will cache your files, but they will be deleted depending on how it has been configured to clean out junk
<amosbird>
brendyn: so i need a daemon to serve the requests of gateways?
<brendyn>
yes
<brendyn>
Now that I have viewed your pdf via my gateway, my laptop is also sharing your pdf. althoug i didn't look at the .tex file, so im not sharing that one
<brendyn>
If you know how bittorrent works, it's just like that, except you are "torrent" individual files, or directories
<amosbird>
what is the standard way to get a file?
<amosbird>
brendyn: if I open ipfs daemon, people will be able to directly connect to my laptop right?
<brendyn>
amosbird: Well sort of.
<amosbird>
can I configure my laptop only to serve my server's request and share my files in there?
<brendyn>
Do you want to run a ipfs node on a vps?
<brendyn>
In theory, you can do that, but I'm not sure if ipfs has that feature yet.
<brendyn>
What you could do is share your files, then on your vps' node, run ipfs pin <hash>; once that is done you can turn off the daemon on your laptop
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<amosbird>
hello
<amosbird>
brendyn: um
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<amosbird>
that's complicated
<amosbird>
neverminde
<amosbird>
can I run ipfs on centos 6?
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<amosbird>
hmm, gateway is slow
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<warbo>
hi, I have 2 machines running IPFS on a LAN
<warbo>
I've added a file on machine A, and can retrieve it on machine A
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<warbo>
machine B can retrieve it via ipfs.io, but can't via "ipfs get" or its local HTTP gateway
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<warbo>
each machine appears in the others' "ipfs swarm peers" list
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<warbo>
The file is QmPHxEogZH2HvDgSb14w5bbfBEQMCEhu5qEjjJDyPM4tyA (just a small HTML file I had lying around, for testing purposes)
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<Mateon1>
Well.. Regarding pins. I would love a "Weak" pin, such that things under it were not GCd, but the contents wouldn't be recursively requested at pin time. A motivation might be a large dataset, which doesn't fit on disk, but you want to seed at least partially.
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<melvster>
all night dreaming of decentralized ipfs search :)
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<melvster>
how well does ipfs perform, how many files can be added on a laptop? 100, 1000, 1million?
<vandemar>
depends on storage available for ~/.ipfs/ or whether you're using the new filestore feature (not sure if it landed in 0.4.7)
<Mateon1>
On a laptop? I'm currently at ~100k objects, but that doesn't map 1:1 to files added because of chunking
<melvster>
oh right, thanks ... how big are chunks?
<Mateon1>
256kB max by default
<melvster>
thanks
<melvster>
100k objects, and does it have a performance impact?
<Mateon1>
Can go up to 2MB, because that's the limit at the network layer
<melvster>
Mateon1, do you know how I can set the chunk size to 2MB? or is that a bad idea?
<Mateon1>
Yes, it does have a performance impact on IPFS, certain operations don't perfectly scale to tons of files. For example, I can't do `ipfs pin ls` because it takes forever
<melvster>
ah interesting
<melvster>
what exactly is pinning?
<Mateon1>
melvster: It's probably a bad idea, small chunk sizes increase deduplication, and are in general nicer to work with
<Mateon1>
Pinning, is telling IPFS to keep a block (directory or file) forever in the datastore, so it is not lost when the next garbage collection is ran
<melvster>
ah
<melvster>
last question: is the ipfs URI scheme now finalized?
<Mateon1>
IPFS is sticking to /ipfs/QmHash/Path/to/thing /dns/bla.example.com/..., but has compatibility with URIs by fs: and ipfs: prefixes.
<melvster>
ah!
<melvster>
'more universal than URIs' :D
<melvster>
so i can just use ipfs:ipfa:hash for now ...
<melvster>
oops ipfs:ipfs:hash
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<Mateon1>
No, rather ipfs:/ipfs/hash
<melvster>
oh thanks!
<Mateon1>
and ipfs:/ipns/hash ipfs:/dns/example.com
<melvster>
does this currently work with a browser extension ?
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<melvster>
so what about this idea : I would like someone to store a file for me on IPFS, and will offer them some crypto coin to do so ... good idea / bad idea / problems?
<melvster>
I should watch the filecoin video i suppose
<melvster>
'We are adressing two important issues: peer-2-peer content storage based on IPFS and direct monetization of services through the SHIFT blockchain'
<melvster>
hmmm some interesting definitions, web 3.0 is normally considered to be Linked Data and the semantic web, but I suppose everyone will have their own definitions ... :)
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<melvster>
right, so it looks like there's 5 crypto coin projects right now working on decentralized storage : sia / maidsafe / storj / filecoin / bitmark
<r0kk3rz>
does it even need to be crypto? why is it so different to a VPS now?
<r0kk3rz>
if someone made a docker image ipfs pinbot hoster whatsit, it would be rather easy
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<r0kk3rz>
or eg. pinbits.io
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<melvster>
oh nice!
<melvster>
oh they even allow btc
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<melvster>
question: can ipfs work with access control lists?
<r0kk3rz>
nope
<melvster>
thx
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<melvster>
i could possibly create that feature by porting ipfs to solid ... hmmm not sure ...
<r0kk3rz>
it could be added into bitswap to check the peerid against a list
<r0kk3rz>
but in general, i dont think acls and ipfs really makes much sense
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<melvster>
r0kk3rz, you are right
<melvster>
if i were to port ipfs to solid i could only make those hashes public
<melvster>
but that might be a fun thing to do anyway
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<r0kk3rz>
yeah but like, its ipfs so you're only really talking read permission
<r0kk3rz>
so encryption handles that better than any transport layer based stuff anyway
<melvster>
different approaches i suppose
<melvster>
solid has built in ACL's which is a feature I find useful
<melvster>
mind you, if no one knows the hash, they cant see the file ...
<lgierth>
i also think it doesn't currently support preflight requests or something like that. but you're doing HEAD there and not OPTIONS
<lgierth>
so that should be fine
<melvster>
i secretly think cors was a cunning plan to centralize the web ... it gets more restrictive every few months, but favours the big players who can uniformly change huge numbers of pages in a single update
<substack>
right, the curl behavior was because i wasn't sending Origin: and didn't have HEAD specified
<substack>
and the issue in the browser might've been fixed in the 0.4.7 update
<substack>
closed the issue thanks everybody \o
<substack>
yeah sweet traversing the tilemesh directory hierarchy on ipfs directly from the browser now :D
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<substack>
ipfs-api is 1.3M alone in the browserify bundle though :/
<substack>
is there a lightweight version that speaks only the http api to the api daemon?
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<Kubuxu>
no idea sorry
<substack>
I think for a demo it would be good to check first to see if localhost:5001 is responsive and otherwise use the web gateway
<substack>
to load the data
<substack>
and cache responses from the web gateway in indexeddb but not if they come from localhost:5001
<lgierth>
can't use https then :(
<lgierth>
there is a super rough web extension that bundles js-ipfs
<lgierth>
and exposes it as window.ipfs
<lgierth>
that's a js-ipfs node running in a background page then
<substack>
is there any way to run the api daemon with a self-signed ssl cert?
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<substack>
I'm ok with having the setup for using a local ipfs daemon be a bit more work if the gateway fallback always works
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<lgierth>
go-ipfs doesn't have any https in it, you'd need nginx or something similar
<lgierth>
(not saying we shouldn't add the option for https)
<lgierth>
local https just hasn't come up as a use case :) and on the internet it's just better to use nginx or apache for ssl termination 99.9% of the time
<substack>
I think in this particular scenario it makes sense to have ssl
<substack>
because the web is messy like that
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<substack>
I can imagine many other cases where people might want to configure a webapp to use their local ipfs daemon