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<stebalien>
voker57: The second part.
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<skynode>
Hello everyone, great to be here...
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<MrSparkle>
am I thick, or has ipfs development not gotten to the point of trying to replace http in a browser?
<MrSparkle>
start up ipfs daemon, visit some ipfs:// complete with images text and even clickable blue underlined linked text
<AGTT>
I would like that...
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<deltab>
MrSparkle: you can install the browser extension which tries to do that
<deltab>
though browsers limit what can be done
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<teej>
MrSparkle: It might take a few years. We'll have to wait and see. Usually projects don't live up to expectations, though. We'll have to wait and see for that as well.
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<AGTT>
I have this idea: how to host Arch Linux repositories in IPFS? :-?
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<AGTT>
I was looking at IPNS (for updates), but that makes a reference to a peer ID, so that machine would always have to be available.
<AGTT>
As far as I can figure out...
<AGTT>
How could you use load balancing (HAProxy)?
<AGTT>
And who would own the repository?
<AGTT>
How would it get agreed upon what packages are included (if the repository is public; not on one machine)?
<BronzeEagle>
Literally had this idea 30 minutes ago
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<AGTT>
I'm curious: what are your conclusions, so far?
<AGTT>
If any...
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<deltab>
AGTT: the IPNS record just has to be republished daily (at the moment); it's stored in a DHT
<deltab>
or you can use DNS to link to the latest hash
<AGTT>
Why?
<AGTT>
Don't you just publish it once?
<AGTT>
(Per update)
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<Kythyria[m]>
It expires periodically so you don't get stale records floating around causing confusion.
<AGTT>
OK
<deltab>
and because it uses resources on other people's computers
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<AGTT>
So, just run "ipfs name publish" daily?
<AGTT>
(With the same hash)
<deltab>
yes
<deltab>
if the hash is the node's id, it happens automatically as long as the node is on sometimes
<deltab>
(if I understand correctly)
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<AGTT>
But, as far as I understand, the hash would not be the node's ID, it would be the content's hash.
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<AGTT>
And you would run the publish command on the node where that you want to be pointing to the content that you gave the hash for.
<AGTT>
*cut out the 1st where in there*
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<AGTT>
OK, I am going to bed... See you next time...
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<whyrusleeping>
you don't have to manually run `ipfs name publish` every day
<whyrusleeping>
as long as your ipfs node is running, it will do it for you
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<kpcyrd>
whyrusleeping: it seems you merged master into your branch and this causes gitcop to fail. maybe try a rebase.
<whyrusleeping>
oh weird
<whyrusleeping>
thanks for catching that
<kpcyrd>
no problem! :)
<whyrusleeping>
kpcyrd: oh! I get it now
<whyrusleeping>
the base of my branch was a different branch
<whyrusleeping>
not master
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<cryptix>
great.. somehow borked my matrixbridge user
<Icefoz_>
Man, you know what would be really cool?
<Icefoz_>
Something like git-lfs that uses IPFS as a data store.
<Icefoz_>
That's the awesome thing about IPFS, once you can outsource "where does this data come from" and "how does it get here" then all sorts of cool stuff becomes way easier.
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<Bat`O_>
Icefoz_: that said, there is a need for "who can access that"
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<Icefoz_>
Oh, certainly.
<Icefoz_>
And the only really good solution IPFS has for that is 'encrypt the content'
<Icefoz_>
Which is arguably the only good solution anyway.
<Icefoz_>
But it's not a very convenient solution.
<r0kk3rz>
theres private networks
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<miflow[m]>
if you care to dig a bit, you can also use libp2p to connect to only the nodes you want
<miflow[m]>
authorized however you want
<Icefoz_>
Yeah but anyone between you and that node can snoop your traffic unless you use a VPN or such.
<Icefoz_>
It turns an authorization problem into a physical security problem.
<Icefoz_>
Which is really the traditional way of handling it, but isn't really more convenient.
<r0kk3rz>
unless you use private networks, which are encrypted afaik
<miflow[m]>
i thought libp2p secio encrypts the traffic
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<Icefoz_>
r0kk3rz: Is that a feature in IPFS? I haven't heard of this before.
<Icefoz_>
Well, I need to understand more then.
<Icefoz_>
My understanding is that IPFS nodes were by nature pretty promiscuous about telling the world what content they have.
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<Icefoz_>
Well it's less a matter of how I want it to work
<Icefoz_>
and more a matter of "how do you shoehorn existing auth models into it"
<Icefoz_>
One of the places where existing software is really crappy is in doing version control of large binary files.
<Icefoz_>
Which most people don't care about, except the large-scale game dev industry, where it is 100% critical
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<Icefoz_>
So they use SVN or Perforce or such because those are the only solutions that can version-control large binary files without storing every single version of them on every user's computer.
<Icefoz_>
Because that's impossible when you have gigabytes of churn per day.
<Icefoz_>
And in situations like that you can definitely imagine people saying "group X and also person Y needs access to repo Z" or other fiddly fine-grained controls.
<Icefoz_>
And you can also imagine people being very leery about the possibility of accidentally broadcasting bits of their repos to people who shouldn't have them, whether in a private IPFS network or not.
<Icefoz_>
Because there can be lots of money involved.
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<Icefoz_>
So, I dunno the whole picture.
<r0kk3rz>
does ipfs need to reimplement git?
<grawity>
this somewhat reminds me of Freenet, where object addresses consist of two keys – one is for routing/naming the blob, the other is for decrypting it
<grawity>
so if some node manages to receive a blob/chunk/whatever, it still can't decrypt it
<Icefoz_>
Probably not, I was just imagining some system where, essentially, git would store content hashes
<Icefoz_>
and then when you fetch them it pulls the actual files from IPFS.
<r0kk3rz>
i guess that can be useful if you're talking about large amounts of data i guess
<Icefoz_>
Like I said, git-lfs already does this, it just pulls from a (proprietary) HTTP server.
<Icefoz_>
I have a friend who works in exactly that sort of environment and it's really weird talking to him about it.
<Icefoz_>
You say "how about you try X or Y or Z to have less redundant data in your repo" and he says "we've thought of all those things, doesn't work. So I just have a 2 TB external SSD taped to my laptop."
<Icefoz_>
"Well if you only store the diffs--" "The 50 GB of changes per day *are* the diffs."
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<Icefoz_>
So my takeaway is "never underestimate the craziness of the problems people will want to solve" and "if they can afford to pay really smart people they've probably tried all the easy solutions already".
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<r0kk3rz>
aside from bandwidth ipfs wont really help that at all i dont think
<r0kk3rz>
and that might be offset by the hashing anyway
<Icefoz_>
Eh, I was just thinking that doing version control on large binary files becomes potentially easier when you separate the problem of "locate and distribute the file" from "know which version of the file to get"
<Icefoz_>
Having a single easy-to-use method of saying "locate and distribute a specific file" makes lots of interesting problems easier.
<r0kk3rz>
sure, you can download it torrent style from everyone else in the office
<r0kk3rz>
instead of having one big beefy fileserver
<r0kk3rz>
you could probably already set that up with the unixfs stuff really
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<r0kk3rz>
and have a git filled with symlinks
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<miflow[m]>
Did you look at blockstacks approach: you might store permissions in a blockchain and the files+ diffs in ipfs, so the peers send only to authed nodes. Everyone needs the blockchain then though
<miflow[m]>
I might have garbled that idea though
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<r0kk3rz>
you dont strictly need a blockchain for that though
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<r0kk3rz>
theres no reason why you couldnt have an ACL of nodeids on ipfs
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<lgierth>
we wanna figure out ACLs via crypto capabilities
<lgierth>
the three As: authentication, authorization, accounting
<lgierth>
anything else will be hard to make work in a distributed context
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<pjz>
a merkle tree for AAA is probably a good start
<pjz>
entries are self-auditing/verifying if they're chained blockchain-like but without the PoW
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<Icefoz_>
Yeah then you just have an audit log, which you should have anyway.
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<spectra|>
what is the incentive for people to run IPFS servers and host content for people?
<spectra|>
is it a distributed network, do most people run their own IPFS nodes?
<Icefoz_>
spectra|: Seems to be the case, unless someone hosts public servers deliberately.
<voker57>
for now, only incentive is content being available to people
<voker57>
there's filecoin in the works which will reward people
<voker57>
if you don't run your node, you have to use public gateways which offer limited bandwidth
<lgierth>
limited bandwidth?
<Icefoz_>
I'm short-circuiting it by making a paid file pinning service. ;-)
<Icefoz_>
Which will at least let people put things on IPFS without needing to run their own node all the time.
<voker57>
gateway will obviously be slower than network
<voker57>
and ipfs.io in my experience is much slower than local node
<Icefoz_>
I'm making this basically because I don't want to host an IPFS node on my laptop all the bloody time to make content available.
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<Icefoz_>
And I have another project idea that needs reliable IPFS pinning in a programmatic way
<Icefoz_>
So, at worst, it's been a learning experience.
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<voker57>
even if you're using ipfs with public gateway/hosting service, links still are permanent and content can be easily mirrored
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<Icefoz_>
How reliable is the mirroring, is the question.
<voker57>
what do you mean?
<whyrusleeping>
so someone seems to be shipping a certain version of ipfs as part of some app
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<Icefoz_>
voker57: I start a node on my laptop. I add a file into IPFS. I get the file via http://ipfs.io/ or such elsewhere. I turn my laptop off. How long until the network can't find the file anymore?
<Icefoz_>
This is the problem that filecoin is supposed to solve, but filecoin is a research project and I want to something that works now.
<Icefoz_>
The economics of filecoin are also something I wonder about; it's likely to be more expensive and higher latency than dedicated storage due to the redundancy and distribution involved.
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<voker57>
Icefoz_: what I meant is, if you see a file linked through IPFS, you can mirror it on your own, and it can be accessible from your device with the same link, which cannot be said about traditional file hosting
<Icefoz_>
voker57: Right. I'm not selling traditional file hosting, I'm selling IPFS pinning.
<Icefoz_>
I misunderstood then. I'm only to the 3rd box from the top then.
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<miflow[m]>
i just had a chuckle
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<miflow[m]>
btw did the picture load fast?
<Icefoz_>
Yep.
<Icefoz_>
Hmmm, actually, if filecoin ends up more expensive than AWS-like block data services, then there will be incentive to use those services to mine filecoin, obviously... I was wondering what the inverse looked like though.
<Icefoz_>
And I just realized... if filecoin is cheaper than block data services with similar reliability/speed, people will end up providing block data services backed by filecoin. :-P
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<substack>
AWS is so expensive, I think you'd be hard pressed to do any worse
<Icefoz_>
Gah, I was thinking S3
<Alpha64>
the main advantage doesn't need to be price, just bureaucracy
<miflow[m]>
awesome, cuz my wifi sucks,
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* pjz
chuckles at Icefoz_.
<pjz>
<- Pangalactic Dataworks
<substack>
s3 is also very expensive compared to other options
<Icefoz_>
pjz: I salute your awesome name.
<pjz>
Icefoz_: thanks!
* pjz
needs to work on other services.
<pjz>
"heck, pinbits probably needs an overhaul too.
<whyrusleeping>
official numbers from my new network scraper: ~8100 nodes in the network right now
<Icefoz_>
Oh? What sorts of things were you thinking of?
* pjz
is honestly not sure it still works, it's been neglected.
* pjz
got a fulltime job, had a lot less time for it.
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<pjz>
Icefoz_: oh, I have a couple other ideas.
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<Icefoz_>
Yeah fulltime jobs tend to do that.
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<pjz>
hah, yeah, pinbits.io is definitely busted
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<infinisil>
Hey there, do you think it makes sense to back up the ipfs data directory?
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<voker57>
why not
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<infinisil>
Yeah.. I have no idea why i even thought of the contrary
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<miflow[m]>
But after every connected device has pinned the content
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<miflow[m]>
Backups don't seed :0
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<sbcryptomusic>
hello, we are SATOSHI BUTERIN, the international cryptomusic collective. we've just released our debut single, TOPOLOGICAL HARD FORK, on IPFS! see www.satoshibuterin.org for more!
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<lgierth>
sbcryptomusic: nice tune :D
<lgierth>
like the piano
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<sbcryptomusic>
lgierth: thank you! will hopefully be the first of many :-)
<lgierth>
sbcryptomusic: make sure your ipfs node is running, can't resolve the things right now
<lgierth>
if you turn it on, i'll pin it on our infrastructure nodes
<lgierth>
cjd[m]: you'll like this ^
<lgierth>
sbcryptomusic: ah nevermind, i saw you also have the same files there on the website, i'll download them and add them
<sbcryptomusic>
lgierth: thank you for checking! I'm running the daemon ("Daemon is ready") - any luck?
<whyrusleeping>
sbcryptomusic: i pinned it :)
<lgierth>
great
<sbcryptomusic>
great, thank you!
<lgierth>
ooh it's already over
<lgierth>
love it
<voker57>
put your site on ipfs too for good measure
<sbcryptomusic>
voker57: great idea - will do it
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<whyrusleeping>
sbcryptomusic: i'll pin whatever music you make for as long as i have computers on the internet :D
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<sbcryptomusic>
whyrusleeping: that is a deal :-) thank you very much!
<whyrusleeping>
i assume you'll be at devcon?
<lgierth>
sbcryptomusic: oh - and make those ipfs refs ipfs:// instead of just ipfs:
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<sbcryptomusic>
whyrusleeping: hopefully - and hopefully playing some music
<sbcryptomusic>
lgierth: fixing now, thank you
<whyrusleeping>
sbcryptomusic: sweeet. let me know if you do, i'll be around
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<voker57>
lgierth: is there a standard on ipfs links yet? i thought consensus was // is for authority-based links, and these on the site don't even have /ipfs as authority
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<whyrusleeping>
voker57: ipfs://HASH, dweb:ipfs/HASH i think
<whyrusleeping>
cc lgierth
<sbcryptomusic>
whyrusleeping: excellent, will do!
<lgierth>
ipfs://hash, and dweb:/ipfs/hash
<whyrusleeping>
that protocol is running 'lars consensus'
<lgierth>
i'm working on a proper write up of the addressing scheme
<whyrusleeping>
its where when we need consensus, we ask lars
<lgierth>
give me a few more weeks
<whyrusleeping>
he has to continuously submit proofs of lars to the larschain