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<musicmatze>
Good morning #ipfs ! I'm writing down some thoughts about a distributed social network solely based on IPFS and -related technology (IPLD, IPNS) ... and I'm done writing down the first draft... would someone which is a bit more involved in the IPFS ecosystem review it (would send out my draft by mail or IPFS :-))?
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<musicmatze>
aaand I'm having problems starting my ipfs instance: `Error: leveldb: manifest corrupted (field 'comparer'): missing [file=MANIFEST-000321]`
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<Li[m]>
musicmatze: do you know about matrix ?
<musicmatze>
Li[m]: yes.
<musicmatze>
I actually use it.
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<Li[m]>
so why do you want to duplicate the efforts
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<musicmatze>
Li[m]: matrix is a chat platform... and it is federated, not distributed.
<Li[m]>
no matrix is not a chat platform, its a universal message-passing protocol based on dag, and it can be used in a distributed architecture
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<musicmatze>
hmh, interesting.
<Li[m]>
there was talk of porting matrix to ipfs
<Li[m]>
im going to use ddns to implement a fully distributed matrix network
<musicmatze>
oh, that's nice. So I guess I have to do more research then! :-)
<Li[m]>
but the real answer to all of our routing problems is HIP
<Li[m]>
thats in the future somewhere, to enforce ipsec everywhere and have an identity based network
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<musicmatze>
What's HIP? (And before going down this discussion path: Why does my ipfs instance not start ... and what to google to get it going with above error in mind?) :-)
<Li[m]>
host identity protocol
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<voker57>
Li[m]: cjdns does something like this
<Li[m]>
yes I know, but its very hacky
<Li[m]>
and slow
<Li[m]>
it doesnt use ipsec, for some reason
<r0kk3rz>
why does it need ipsec?
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<Li[m]>
I ask the reverse question
<Li[m]>
wanna encrypt the internet protocol, use the internet built-in packet encryption
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<Li[m]>
HIP describes how to secure the internet
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<sknebel>
ipsec is a horrible protocol (partially due to being old, partially due to being a case study in design by committee)
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<sknebel>
unless you need to interop with components that speak it already and you can't easily change, there is no good reason to use it
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<Li[m]>
not sure what youre talking about
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<Li[m]>
if you dont like ipsec then I guess you can make another network protocol
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<Li[m]>
im sure someone can make a better one, but I really dont have time to do that now
<Kythyria[m]>
Hip describes an extra layer of name resolution.
<Li[m]>
then only way to secure the network, a self-certifying identifier for your IP adress
<Kythyria[m]>
How is it self-certifying?
<Li[m]>
and the only way to fix tcp mobile connections
<Kythyria[m]>
Any VPN will fix it.
<Li[m]>
well go read about it,
<Li[m]>
vpn doesnt fix it, it moves the problem
<Li[m]>
there is no other way to fix this problem
<Li[m]>
its very obvious
<Kythyria[m]>
Not really?
<Kythyria[m]>
You still have to have a node in a known place.
<Kythyria[m]>
If it were that simple then DNS would be a fix too.
<Li[m]>
dns isnt celf certifying
<Kythyria[m]>
What does that even mean?
<Li[m]>
your host id cannot be mitm'ed
<Li[m]>
its is a hash of the public key
<Kythyria[m]>
And how do you know you have the right public key?
<Li[m]>
you cant be served a fake location
<Kythyria[m]>
... yes you can.
<Li[m]>
well thats your problem, if you can solve that youve defeated the reality of things, thats a nonsencal question
<Kythyria[m]>
It might subsequently fail to resume the connection, but you can sure as heck be served a fake location.
<Kythyria[m]>
Which is also adequately solved by TLS to the same degree.
<Li[m]>
im not sure where youre going
<Kythyria[m]>
HIP doesn't do anything that DNS and TLS can't do.
<Li[m]>
lol
<Li[m]>
dns cant keep a tcp connection alive
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<Li[m]>
it cant do multihoming
<Kythyria[m]>
Neither can HIP.
<Li[m]>
dns can server you a bad certificate for a given name
<Li[m]>
yes
<Li[m]>
all thos things are solved by hip
<Kythyria[m]>
So can HIP.
<Li[m]>
nope
<Li[m]>
the hid is a hash of the public key
<Li[m]>
its called pubkey authentication
<Kythyria[m]>
So? That doesn't make it magically impossible for the resolver to give you the wrong location when queried for that hash.
<Li[m]>
ya so what
<Li[m]>
they sill cant connect
<Li[m]>
they dont have the private key
<Kythyria[m]>
Can't with TLS either.
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<Li[m]>
you can get a fake certificate for youdomain.com
<Li[m]>
theres nothing in youdomain.com that tells you how you can check its certificate
<Li[m]>
itss not self-certifying
<r0kk3rz>
cjdns did make their own protocol, the traffic is encrypted
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<Merima>
hi
<Kythyria[m]>
Okay, how do you make sure that the DNS entry for youdomain.com lists the correct HIP hostid?
<Li[m]>
why are you talking about dn
<Li[m]>
dns
<Li[m]>
im talking about HIP
<Li[m]>
youre talking about a dns problem
<Li[m]>
thats a problem of consensus
<Li[m]>
HIP solves so many problems its a real wonder it isnt frantically worked on
<Li[m]>
my first stop when I get a breather
<Li[m]>
the US military has been using it over 10 yrs
<Kythyria[m]>
It doesn't solve them very well, is probably why.
<r0kk3rz>
the cjdns method of having your IP be your public key is a neat hack though
<Kythyria[m]>
Or at all.
<Kythyria[m]>
That's all HIP does, AIUI.
<Li[m]>
whats why?
<Merima>
whats poppin
<Li[m]>
a good idea can be simply ignored
<Li[m]>
lol
<Kythyria[m]>
HIP doesn't solve any problems related to name resolution.
<Li[m]>
ill make you change your mind
<r0kk3rz>
people regularly ignore good ideas, whats your point?
<Kythyria[m]>
And in a realistic environment it's not necessarily your IP address changing that's the primary cause of disconnects.
<Li[m]>
you cant keep a tcp connection if you change the address
<Li[m]>
its made that way
<Li[m]>
cjdns can keep tcp connections alive across new ip adress (locator)
<Kythyria[m]>
And fixing that doesn't do anything to recover from any other loss of connectivity.
<Li[m]>
well it gives you multihoming, which makes handover a lot easier
<Li[m]>
the new ipsec key daemons can switch adress really quickly
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<Li[m]>
and dont forget it also secures every single connection in the network below the transport layer
<Li[m]>
which means for exemple the end of the great firewall
<Kythyria[m]>
Can it deal with the gap in connectivity caused by going out of range of one network and into range of another?
<Kythyria[m]>
(it can't, no better than any other scheme)
<voker57>
that's no end to the great firewall, it still slows any connection to the outside
<Li[m]>
sure, as long as the connection doesnt timeout
<Li[m]>
the other peer receives the update of new locator and boom
<Kythyria[m]>
So I have to set my connection timeouts to be massive
<Li[m]>
well then nothing can solve you being disconnected from anything for longer thaen your timeout
<Li[m]>
thats another reality problem
<Kythyria[m]>
Anything that can recover from that quickly is probably also a solution to the hiccups of switching IP addresses.
<Li[m]>
yup
<Li[m]>
it solves mobility
<Kythyria[m]>
It can't solve a flaky network connection, or even help.
<Kythyria[m]>
Whereas something that can recover from a flaky connection can probably do mobility too.
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<Li[m]>
well youre at a lower layer now
<Li[m]>
hip cant fix radio signals
<Kythyria[m]>
Radio?
<Li[m]>
it also solves wifi login problems
<Kythyria[m]>
And no, but any application which already tolerates flaky connections can probably do mobility into the bargain.
<Kythyria[m]>
... no it doesn't?
<Li[m]>
you can use the hid to connect to a wireless network
<Kythyria[m]>
A captive portal still isn't going to let you do anything until you let it redirect you and go through whatever it demands.
<Li[m]>
you can use your hid to login your device to your matrix server
<Li[m]>
you can get rid of tls
<r0kk3rz>
captive portals need to diaf
<Li[m]>
encryption below the transport layer
<Li[m]>
then cant see your port, which means tor becomes really dark
<Li[m]>
hip is nothing short of the beginning of the true encrypted network
<Kythyria[m]>
So HIP includes an identity system capable of human-readable names now?
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<Li[m]>
why?
<Li[m]>
no, I didnt say anything about that. I said you can use that key to control access
<Li[m]>
access control is, of course, controlled by someone
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<Li[m]>
like a password is controlled, but pubkey (per device) is of course safer
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<Li[m]>
tor is another exemple of a self certifying system
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<Kythyria[m]>
Tor also doesn't have a mechanism for binding human-readable names to addresses.
<Kythyria[m]>
(also, Matrix doesn't use TLS for client authentication)
<Kythyria[m]>
TLS does have such a mechanism, by using a trusted third party.
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<Li[m]>
TLS was a hack needed since we dont have something like HIP
<Li[m]>
ipsec everywhere would make the NSA shit their pants
<Li[m]>
and now we end up with projects like IPFS trying to solve routing problems because the hosts in the network still have no way to by identified
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<Kythyria[m]>
HIP doesn't solve naming issues though.
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<r0kk3rz>
Li[m]: maybe thats why we dont have ipsec everywhere, its a NSA conspiracy :)
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<Li[m]>
I wouldn't be surprised if we found out they tried to delay it
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<ehmry>
i thought the nsa had a role in making ipsec too complicated to deploy
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<pjz>
Icefoz_: ah! it's you!
* pjz
smiles.
<Icefoz_>
pjz: It's not me, actually.
<Icefoz_>
But it was one of the first actual IPFS apps I found.
* pjz
nods.
<pjz>
I;ve spent a couple hours tryig to stand up ipfsbin, but it's out of date
<pjz>
node apps go out of date soooo fast
<Icefoz_>
I know the feeling, rust is kinda the same.
<Icefoz_>
Well, the programs keep working, but anything you write down is obsolete 6 months later
<Icefoz_>
docs, tutorials, etc
<pjz>
ah, well, with node if you don't pin all your dependencies carefully then they'll change out from under you
<Icefoz_>
that happens in Rust but most people are reasonably good at following semver and specifying their dependencies as a this-api-should-not-break version
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<Icefoz_>
which is more a cultural thing than anything else, and one that has taken a fair amount of work from some people to create
<pjz>
Icefoz_: so do you host hardbin? or does the author?
<pjz>
I note it has an IPFSStore link on it :)
<Icefoz_>
pjz: The author does, I think.
<Icefoz_>
Oh, I hadn't noticed that!
<Icefoz_>
Doesn't look like the same person as IPFSStore though.
<pjz>
Icefoz_: wait, I thought *you* were IPFSStore ?
<Icefoz_>
Nope!
<Icefoz_>
My pinning service isn't finished yet. ;-)
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<pjz>
hm, I don't want to run a public writable IPFS gateway, which is what hardbin requies.
<pjz>
requires
<pjz>
ugh.
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<lgierth>
Icefoz_: have you seen peerpad.net?
<whyrusleeping>
pvh: wassup?
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<musicmatze[m]>
Li: sorry, but I have to get to you on this. As far as I can tell, matrix wouldn't help me that much with myidea. It would help me with message passing, sure, but the whole thing would still be federated only (as opposed to distributed with an optional federated component, which my idea would use) and not be able to benefit from IPLD (linking to other content, for example to other posts, profiles, or even other data like
<musicmatze[m]>
git commits for example.
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<lgierth>
did someone say HIP is the only solution for encrypting IP?
<lgierth>
i don't know man
<Kythyria[m]>
lgierth: It's not by a long way, but it's Li's favourite technology by the looks of it :P
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<drozdziak1>
It's basically a command-line pastebin based on IPFS
<drozdziak1>
What differentiates it from the others (including ipfs add) is that you can choose the link type you want and that its output is pipe (or xclip) friendly
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<pjz>
musicmatze[m]: have you seen scuttlebutt?
<musicmatze[m]>
I just tried to package it for my distro for the last four hours, so yes.
<musicmatze[m]>
Did not yet get a chance to try it, though
<musicmatze[m]>
And I am not sure whether it does what I am thinking of...
kode54 is now known as kuroshi
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<pvh>
whyrusleeping: oh, i think I'm starting to make sense of things. I had been trying to figure out how the pubsub / y.js / chat room examples fit into the IPFS-i-verse and now I see that they sort of don't! pubsub basically bypasses all the bitswap / content addressing stuff and floods messages over the whole network
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<pvh>
whyrusleeping: is there anywhere that a future for pubsub is being expanded on aside from the crdt research doc?
<kpcyrd>
lgierth: ping :)
<kpcyrd>
lgierth: I arrived in berlin today
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