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<thorcodes[m]>
So IPFS is distributed p2p toolchain serving http and https pages? Deployment itself is irrelevant?
<Kythyria[m]>
Not HTTP necessarily.
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<thorcodes[m]>
so It is fetching content from regular servers. no casching involved? Im not sure I understand.
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<thorcodes[m]>
I watched the video, where he explains the Facebook example. But how can not lower the latency? Is it a dumb question?
<kode54>
nodes usually cache content which is pulled through them
<kode54>
but they do not hold that data indefinitely
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<thorcodes[m]>
aah.. I see. so what do we do on the serverside, to decide what content is getting cached and what is not?
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<kode54>
thorcodes[m]: probably marks when the data was last accessed, and has a limit on how much data it will hang onto, and/or a time limit in days or weeks or whatever
<thorcodes[m]>
okay. I better read up on It. I dont see how SSL can pass protected through a system like that.
<Alpha64_>
it's unrelated
<Alpha64_>
you request a file with a hash
<Alpha64_>
if it doesn't match, it wasn't that file
<Alpha64_>
there's no http negotiation that i can see
<thorcodes[m]>
okay. So It would be interesting to see how they will handle websocket.
<Alpha64_>
ipfs is not for that
<thorcodes[m]>
so a distributed server and db is the plan?
<Alpha64_>
there's a project that builds a database on top of ipfs
<Alpha64_>
but the basic functionality of ipfs is to let you fetch files
<thorcodes[m]>
sorry. im sounding stupid. apparently I dont understand It.
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<Alpha64_>
nah it's ok
<Alpha64_>
it's kinda hard to see what it does
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<Alpha64_>
the gist of it is that you can hash a file, and tell the network that you are hosting that file
<Alpha64_>
if somebody requests it, you have it for the
<Alpha64_>
m
<thorcodes[m]>
okay. beginning to understand now. basically regular p2p for static files but encrypted. So the challing will be to handle as much as possible on the client side to benefit from It. Meaning a lot of requests to the original server can be skipped, even If a page is visited for the first time. Something like that?
<Alpha64_>
it's not encrypted
<Alpha64_>
or rather, some parts are it seems
<thorcodes[m]>
aah.. not encrypted. just using hashtags for requesting files on the network.
<Alpha64_>
but files are not, you can access them with gateways for example
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<Alpha64_>
hash as in df98rf0e9rifsdopfirfpoerkxcsa9ids90 <- that kind of thing
<Alpha64_>
check the video in the ipfs site
<thorcodes[m]>
I get It now :)
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<thorcodes[m]>
The system is not intented as a replacement for the common protocols, but rather a smart alternative to CDN. Even better in areas with bad connections. Mesh could come in play as well.
<thorcodes[m]>
distrubuted files could be used for carrying instructions as well. updates. Whole websites/apps for areas with high latency.
<thorcodes[m]>
great idea. I like It.
<thorcodes[m]>
thanks for tuning me in.
<thorcodes[m]>
obviously the hashtag system, to avoud unnessesary requests.
<thorcodes[m]>
Its that simple I guess. neat.
<deltab>
just 'hash' :-)
<thorcodes[m]>
:D
<deltab>
yes, your node can send out a hash to its 'neighbours' other nodes it's connected to) and any of them could respond with the data
<deltab>
adn you can verify it hasn't been changed using the hash
<deltab>
it's built on a peer-to-peer networking library called libp2p, which allows for connections between nodes over a variety of protocols (tcp, udp, rtc, etc.)
<thorcodes[m]>
Piratebay on steroids.
<thorcodes[m]>
I like It.
<deltab>
unlike bittorrent, you can access individual files by path (starting from a directory's hash), and with ipld even navigate through data structures within files, blockchains, etc.
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<mib_kd743naq>
none of my data is critical - I am currently experimenting with stress testing before committing to actually storing things
<mib_kd743naq>
Magik6k: oh! so it is actually within master already, I did not realize this
<mib_kd743naq>
go-ipfs master I mean
<SerkanDevel[m]>
Rewrite ipfs in Rust
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<musicmatze[m]>
> Rewrite ipfs in Rust
<musicmatze[m]>
That'd be nice
<musicmatze[m]>
Can someone update me on what changed in ipfs in the last few months?
<musicmatze[m]>
I had the problem that a ipns name was only provided by one machine and I was not able to cache the name mapping on other nodes.
<musicmatze[m]>
Doea this problem still exist?
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<voker57>
yes
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<bacce>
say I have just added a file and my brother across the country now gets that hash. will data be transfered directly from point-to-point or will the data distribute via multiple jump nodes (as in: can the leecher identify the IP of the seeder?
<r0kk3rz>
bacce: at the moment its only direct p2p
<bacce>
is that subject to change any time soon?
<r0kk3rz>
so yes, leechers can identify seeders
<r0kk3rz>
probably not, its a fairly core part of IPFS that you need to know who is seeding what
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<Kythyria[m]>
ie, being tor is out of scope
<musicmatze[m]>
> yes
<musicmatze[m]>
How unfortunate
* Kythyria[m]
shrugs. It adds a huge amount of complexity and is difficult to get right.
<musicmatze[m]>
Yeah, I think so.
<musicmatze[m]>
But publishing a blog from a notebook is not possible because of this
<musicmatze[m]>
Because if the notebook goes offline,... One cannot find the current content anymore.
<Kythyria[m]>
That would be true even if you stick onion routing on it.
<Kythyria[m]>
You can't get around SOMEONE having to seed.
<Kythyria[m]>
It's not magic.
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<musicmatze[m]>
Well, I do not mean the content
<musicmatze[m]>
I mean the IPNS->IPFS hash mapping
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<Kythyria[m]>
That's replicated a bit, but it expires frequently.
<Kythyria[m]>
And this is a fundamental thing: Nothing will get you out of having to either have a server or pay someone else to.
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<musicmatze[m]>
Yeah, that's for sure... The problem is that I cannot create content on my notebook and "push" the ipns hash to my server and take my notebook offline then. This does not work, at least not permanently. I have to create the IPNS hash on my server for this to work permanently.
<musicmatze[m]>
This is not only a problem for me publishing a blog... But also for developing distributes applications where users create content in their browser... As soon as the node goes offline, nobody can find the _current_ version of the content. They can't find the content, but not which version is the current one.
<musicmatze[m]>
This makes developing things like a distributed social network, for example, really hard.
<SerkanDevel[m]>
How does akasha work then?
<musicmatze[m]>
We don't know, because, as far as I know, the code is not public.
<SerkanDevel[m]>
akash isn't open source?
<musicmatze[m]>
Nope, as far as I know not. This information might be outdated, though.
<musicmatze[m]>
Here's the organization on github. I do not see a project for akasha itself.
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<musicmatze[m]>
I would actually love to try it out, but not as long as it is closed source...
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<SerkanDevel[m]>
^
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<shyBlugs[m]>
👍
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<MrSparkle>
thats how the internet _works_
<MrSparkle>
if something is the latest and greatest, or an update has just been pushed but your slight latency means you haven't noticed yet
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<thorcodes[m]>
so how does one remove content from the blockchain?
<thorcodes[m]>
If there is no central control of ipfs. Even if there were, what laws would that company adhere to.
<Kythyria[m]>
What blockchain?
<Kythyria[m]>
A proper bitcoin-esque blockchain, you cannot remove content from it period.
<Kythyria[m]>
IPFS, you tell your nodes to unpin and forget the offending content, and then you aren't hosting it.
<Kythyria[m]>
Apparently there's a blacklist thing.
<Kythyria[m]>
Your question is similar to "How does one remove content from HTTP"
<lemmi>
actually you can only control what you distribute or hold. if it's out there.. well it's out there
<thorcodes[m]>
okay. thanks. That would make IPFS illegal, at least in Europe.
<dsc_>
are you a lawyer? :P
<Kythyria[m]>
thor.codes: Wouldn't that make HTTP illegal too?
<thorcodes[m]>
no. because we have control in that matter. we can take legal action.
<Kythyria[m]>
... wow, that's a fucking stupid law.
<dsc_>
who cares about whats legal and illegal anyway ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<Kythyria[m]>
So your lawyers are capable of successfully suing anyone, anywhere in the world, to get them to remove stuff that you have been ordered to take down from your own servers, and doing so is a prerequisite?
<lemmi>
there's always a country nearby that won't care :)
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<dsc_>
lemmi: :)
<Kythyria[m]>
Can we find whoever passed that law and slap them?
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<Kythyria[m]>
Because as described it makes email illegal too.
<lemmi>
Kythyria[m]: i don't think it's that wa
<Kythyria[m]>
And... everything, basically.
<thorcodes[m]>
the law is to protect your rights as an individual.
<zenground0>
hey thorcodes which law are your referring too specifically?
<Kythyria[m]>
It sounds more like it's to ensure the person whose rights are being protected can force other people to be their unpaid enforcers.
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<thorcodes[m]>
paid by the taxpayer.
<Kythyria[m]>
... seriously?
<lemmi>
thorcodes[m]: i'm not entirely sure how running a p2p node is illegal in itself
<thorcodes[m]>
lemmi: I agree with you. In itself, it is not illegal.
<lemmi>
thorcodes[m]: when you distribute data that you aren't allowed to distribute, sure that's a problem, but other then that
<lemmi>
but ipfs is opt-in
<Kythyria[m]>
thor.codes: The way you're describing it, any service outside of EU jurisdiction is illegal.
<Kythyria[m]>
I'm also not sure how it's your responsibility to force third parties to take down their copies of an object. Surely that's the job of whoever is suing you?
<thorcodes[m]>
well... its not a question about opting in. That would be like telling people its their own fault if the regret putting content on Facebook or Google. Github for that matter.
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<lemmi>
thorcodes[m]: it seem like you are making assumptions
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<lemmi>
my guess they are wrong as to how ipfs works
<Kythyria[m]>
thor.codes: The way you're describing it, github is illegal in the EU because people might have mirrored a repository.
<thorcodes[m]>
im not talking about sensorship. What I mean is, the individual must have means to remove content, even if the individual no longer has access to modify it, or a the ones responsible for the distribution have lost control.
<lemmi>
thorcodes[m]: i can't for example see any reason why running a torrent for you favourate distribution image is a problem. same with ipfs. (as long as the license permits is). you distribute child porn? well you opted to do so, it's your problem
<Kythyria[m]>
thor.codes: What.
<lemmi>
thorcodes[m]: well that won't work for sure
<ansuz>
I smell bs
<lemmi>
and i'm not aware of any such laws that require this
<lemmi>
maybe in UK soon, who knows
<Kythyria[m]>
thor.codes: That would make distribution by sneakernet illegal too, because you have no way to magically find all the copies and remove them.
<thorcodes[m]>
opposite situation for the UK, since they will be leaving the EU.
<thorcodes[m]>
kythyria: that is correct
<Kythyria[m]>
Wow.
<lemmi>
UK has by far the funniest ideas lately wrt to internet
<Kythyria[m]>
so they basically banned every form of data transfer except the DRM-encumbered.
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<Kythyria[m]>
That's fucking insane.
<lemmi>
nonsense
<lemmi>
i'm mean i live there. if this is really the case, i'd like to know. thorcodes[m] any links for me?
<Kythyria[m]>
I'd also like to know, if only so I know whose picture to pin to my dartboard.
<Kythyria[m]>
Hell, as described that's very close to making facebook illegal.
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<lemmi>
still don't see how this is making running ipfs outright illegal
<r0kk3rz>
as an aside, could we make decentralised snapchat with self destructing images?
<Kythyria[m]>
No.
<Kythyria[m]>
It's mathematically impossible.
<Kythyria[m]>
In fact, Snapchat openly admit that the self-destruct feature doesn't work.
<r0kk3rz>
well, its basically drm anyway
<lemmi>
r0kk3rz: and what if you take a picture of your monitor
<lemmi>
with an analog camera
<lemmi>
bam
<cehteh>
you have to invite the person you want to show a pic, show it to him personally and then burn it, that'll work
<lemmi>
these things just won't work ever. once something is out there, you have lost any control
<r0kk3rz>
certainly ive seen people complain about ipfs not covering the revenge porn case
<Nick_Kartha>
is it legal for a service like Snapchat to trace all geolocation devices and identify what those devices are and what they're doing
<r0kk3rz>
but as you say, its probably impossible to completely cover it
<Nick_Kartha>
nothing is impossible with meticulous planning
<keks[m]>
It could sorta work with large trusted platforms
<cehteh>
by what definition of trust?
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<cehteh>
as lemmi pointed out, someone could just photograph the monitor
<keks[m]>
"trusted platform" is a term in itself, if you try splitting it up you won't get far :)
<r0kk3rz>
im not sure we need to worry about screen photography :)
<keks[m]>
you probably could build a monitor such that you can't use a cheapo cap and make pictures
<keks[m]>
r0kk3rz: i agree
<cehteh>
well its a metaphor .. there are other ways to leak out data
<keks[m]>
the point of trusted platforms is that this doesn't happen. smartcards ands such
<r0kk3rz>
sure, but its also a whataboutism, just because theres holes doesnt mean its not worth doing
<lemmi>
if that example doesn't show how impossible such a mechanism is, i don't know
<cehteh>
ultimatively you need to trust the user on the other side, or force some trust upon him as showing him the data while making sure he has no means of copying it
<Kythyria[m]>
You basically have to build a full-blown DRM-encumbered stack.
<keks[m]>
kythyria: yeah, that's a trusted platform :)
<lemmi>
even still. at some point you want usable content
<Kythyria[m]>
Tamper-resistant hardware, remote attestation, etc.
<cehteh>
even drm wont work against the 'photograph the monitor' attack
<lemmi>
and at that point you usually have some kind of access
<keks[m]>
try extracting the keys from your sim card
<lemmi>
you don't need to
<keks[m]>
depends on what you want to do
<Kythyria[m]>
keks: Try building a general-purpose computer that's that resistant.
<cehteh>
what you can do is to add some personalized watermarking to the data, then when it leaks out you at least know who leaked it
<r0kk3rz>
hmm, you need zk-snarks :)
<keks[m]>
that thing better not use a lot of energy because otherwise it will get too hot in all that epoxy
<keks[m]>
:)
<lemmi>
cehteh: then you have someone to blame, still not a solution to avoid distribution or storage
<cehteh>
yeah
<lemmi>
and there's always that country...
<keks[m]>
also TPs are usually designed such that only core functionality is inside, and the rest is outside
<r0kk3rz>
knowing who to sue is still worthy though
<lemmi>
that highly depends on your location
<keks[m]>
and DRM will be deeply baked into HDMI and maybe they'll get it right this time using white box crypto
<lemmi>
especially for video this won't work, ever
<lemmi>
just record on the lvds path if need-be
<lemmi>
and if you can live with a loss of quality, there always a camera
<cehteh>
again boils down to how much you trust the viewer and how you can 'enforce' this trust .. when you can put some sanctions upon him AND he is aware of that it might be his best interest not to save/distribute a pic for example
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<keks[m]>
protect the lvds path such that the devices stops working as soon as you dismantled it far enough to access it
<cehteh>
but if you watermark some content for some random unknown person who gives a sh*t .. then well hap shittens
<Kythyria[m]>
That starts to get expensive.
<lemmi>
yes yes.. and someone always just screws it up
<Kythyria[m]>
Or it just becomes impossible to make something sufficiently tamper-resistant.
<cehteh>
sealed hardware is not the solution, thats security by obscurity
<lemmi>
and i'm not buying any hardware that costs 1k more just to make it hard for 1 in a couple thousand people that want to open it up
<keks[m]>
kythyria: true, but there are unemployed people everywhere, we need to burn some labour force!
<keks[m]>
otherwise the economy will stagnate further
<cehteh>
you need some contract/agreement which can be enforced at least .. and most contracts can not be enforced in a mathematical sense
<lemmi>
just goes to show how rediculous all that content protection is getting
<lemmi>
there is not value in a copy
<lemmi>
there hasn't ever been
<keks[m]>
i agree, but the one who try selling it don't :)
<cehteh>
selling worthless copies became a money printing machine ...
<lemmi>
and it worked so far for them. even with all the piracy.
<lemmi>
nothing truly worked, they are still making money somehow
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<thorcodes[m]>
its an interesting challenge. If IPFS violates the rights of individuals and companys, It is a problem that needs to be adressed.
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<lemmi>
thorcodes[m]: this is not an ipfs issue. it's your personal issue
<lemmi>
noone else's
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<Nick_Kartha>
DRM should be getting the hate. Not IPFS, IPFS is just a hypermedia protocol.
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<lemmi>
it is getting the hate :>
<Nick_Kartha>
welcome back gts
<Nick_Kartha>
lemmi: We can push in our ideals to it, right?
<cehteh>
IPFS will never ever violate rights, people may do so
<Nick_Kartha>
Just like how guns don't kill people, people kill people .. and that could be with guns
<lemmi>
people do so, count on it
<r0kk3rz>
thorcodes[m]: i dont think anyone has ever tried to attack bittorrent directly, only the people that use it
<r0kk3rz>
if the MPAA hasnt tried it, its probably not possible
<Nick_Kartha>
how do I mute the join/quit messages
<lemmi>
depends on your client
<DuClare>
lemmi: I have a hunch that it wouldn't be too hard to record a pixel-perfect copy with a camera and some post-processing
<cehteh>
back in the days the gnutella people got sued .. but yes its all about people, you cant sue a piece of software
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<lemmi>
DuClare: it's quite hard going through air once and end up with the same result. displays and image sensors have weird characteristics
<Kythyria[m]>
thor.codes: Substitute "HTTP hosted someplace outside the EU" for "IPFS" and see how ridiculous it sounds.
<cehteh>
you may sue the persons who wrote the software, which may have a little chance in some countries when the software is only malicious
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<r0kk3rz>
but imo figuring out a non-horrible way to imbue content with certain limitations and making it freely available is a good idea
<r0kk3rz>
its an idea that isnt going to go away
<thorcodes[m]>
To some degree we have regulation when It comes to servers. Guns as well for that matter. Not all regulations are nonsense.
<lemmi>
that's a long way from "ipfs is illegal in the eu"
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<thorcodes[m]>
I wasnt trying to start a flamewar here. I just think its an interesting subject. Since ipfs is not limited by borders and from what you are saying, there will be no regulations. Placing the responsability on the users, works to some degree for people like yourselves. But we have to take everyone into account here. So.. It is not "my problem". It was merely a technical question, to which there seems to be no simple
<thorcodes[m]>
answer. Its a paradox really.
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<lemmi>
no, the issue isn't new. in this context ipfs is just an easier to use bittorrent
<Kythyria[m]>
Not least because the reasoning for that statement also makes distribution of things on PAPER illegal.
<Kythyria[m]>
Or would if it weren't for the magic "on a computer" clause that ets politicians and patent offices so confused.
<thorcodes[m]>
but there is huge difference between the use of bittorrents, and what ipfs wants to achieve. Thats my point.
<Kythyria[m]>
thor.codes: HTTP isn't limited by borde4s.
<lemmi>
thorcodes[m]: no, doesn't look much different on the wire than bittorrent
<lemmi>
and the responsibilities are the same
<Kythyria[m]>
thor.codes: There are no regulations inherent to HTTP, email, writable storage media, bluetooth, or paper.
<Kythyria[m]>
And just what regulation does IPFS alone supposedly violate?
<thorcodes[m]>
the human rights law
<thorcodes[m]>
thats why its a paradox.
<Kythyria[m]>
Which one, the one that forbids the publicateion of printed biographies?
<musicmatze[m]>
> the human rights law
<musicmatze[m]>
Sorry but what are you talking about? IPFS is not illegal! And neither is using it.
<thorcodes[m]>
and It shouldnt be. I agree.
<Kythyria[m]>
The way you've described it, literally all means of information dis5ribution are illegal.
<musicmatze[m]>
Exactly
<zenground0>
thorcodes: are you talking about a certain law on the books?
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<thorcodes[m]>
zenground0: most countries have different laws on the matter. Here, in the EU they are being improved. The personal datalaw is worth mentioning. At first a "rubber law", but it just got upgraded. Which I think we all can agree is a good thing.
<thorcodes[m]>
my original question being: Will there be any regulation of content? What instance will have that responsability, and what laws will that instance adhere to. Both moral, ethical and corporate.
<Kythyria[m]>
thor.codes: There will be exactly as much regulation as HTTP has.
<Kythyria[m]>
And since that's enough for the EU they're going to have to live with it.
<Kythyria[m]>
If it's been upgraded to ban all means of information distribution, as you are suggesting, no it's not and everyone responsible should be fired. Possibly from a cannon.
<Kythyria[m]>
Possibly at a cannon.
<thorcodes[m]>
that is not what i said.
<musicmatze[m]>
As far as I have read the history here, that's exactly what you've said.
<r0kk3rz>
governments wont see it that way, ipfs is a force multiplier in ways that printed flyers can never be
<Kythyria[m]>
r0kk3rz: The trouble is, it also applies to everything they use too.
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<Kythyria[m]>
thor.codes: HTTP hs no central authority, and no regulation inherent to the protocol, and yet the governments of the EU are completely fucking fine with it to the point of using it themselves and openly advertising this fact.
<thorcodes[m]>
I dont understand. http is just a protocal. What does that have to do with It?
<Kythyria[m]>
So is IPFS!
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<musicmatze[m]>
> I dont understand. http is just a protocal. What does that have to do with It?
<musicmatze[m]>
So what are you arguing about? IPFS is also just a protocol!
<r0kk3rz>
Kythyria[m]: naturally they'll choose themselves as exceptions to the rule
<Kythyria[m]>
Of course.
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<Kythyria[m]>
thor.codes: There is no technical means--beyond owning the network infrastructure and attacking that way--for any one entity to control what other people are doing with the same open protocol, whether that's HTTP, IPFS, email, or anything else.
<Kythyria[m]>
And really, how could it possibly be any other way.
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<Zknox>
Hi everybody
<musicmatze[m]>
> Hi everybody
<musicmatze[m]>
Hi!
<Zknox>
Just got to know about IPFS. Amazing stuff.
<musicmatze[m]>
Nice. It is good when more people hear about IPFS!
<Zknox>
I'd like to contribute to the python API, any good place to start?
<musicmatze[m]>
I'm not affiliated with the project, thought I'd say that the github org is a good idea