<pawn>
Hi guys. I was on the all hands call today. Cool stuff. It seems like there is a lot of things moving around the IPFS community, which is awesome! However, there are some major design challenges that IPFS faces, that need to be resolved before going out of alpha.
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<hush>
Sorry, back
<hush>
I'm pawn
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<hush>
IPFS is a great protocol, however, how can we fit it in a stack of tech that builds a distributed application platform that is not only decentralized but also secure and private (privacy is security in my opinion, but that's another argument).
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<mingray[m]>
Hi all! anybody has a good comparison doc of ipfs vs ethereum's swarm?
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<Jico[m]>
@hush, Probaly sharding with self-encryption of the shards.
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<Jico[m]>
That way you’d need a recipe to know what shards to get, and how to decrypt each one.
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<Jico[m]>
Even with an adversary using ASICs that can crack encryption on single shards, they’d expend a lot of resources to decrypt I single puzzle piece
<Jico[m]>
*a single
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<Jico[m]>
There is some extra stuff you can do on top of that. Throwing in junk shards, of junk inside of shards.
<Jico[m]>
*or
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<krotos>
thanks - does ipfs allow for securely placing files onto the file system without identifying which node the file originated from?
<cjd[m]>
You're thinking of freenet
<cjd[m]>
ipfs is more like http with caching, it is not anonymous
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<cjd[m]>
content addressed http w/ caching :)
<krotos>
that's what i thought - but wasn't clear from reading through the docs
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<cjd[m]>
But filecoin might do what you want, when it is complete...
<r0kk3rz>
krotos: i dont think theres any way of determining which node a file originated from, only the nodes providing that file
<krotos>
i'm researching ways to more privately communicate where metadata about who is communicating to whom and how often, etc. is enabled
<krotos>
meant to say where that metadata is not accessible
<cjd[m]>
If it's about computers communicating with other computers, you may consider something like cjdns where you only send messages to one peer.
<cjd[m]>
Of course there are timing attacks and such things, if you want low latency you pay the price in timing attacks.
<r0kk3rz>
krotos: yeah ipfs is not tor :)
<cjd[m]>
Alternatively you could use a big service which is trusted to mask metadata
<r0kk3rz>
krotos: ricochet.im is another project aimed at minimising metadata
<krotos>
was thinking along the lines of: if i wanted to send a private message to you, i would sign my message, then encrypt it with your public key; then put the message onto a p2p network where all peers would get the message, but only with your private key could it be accessed
<cjd[m]>
That's risky
<cjd[m]>
If your key ever leaks then all of your messages are out in the clear
<cjd[m]>
It's nice to have a central or federated service which is reasonably trusted to actually delete things
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<krotos>
that's a similar risk we take with cryptocurrencies as well
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<Alpha64>
encrypt again
<r0kk3rz>
thats ok, encrypting everything forever just means we lose our own history
<cjd[m]>
IPFS is also like this from a privacy standpoint... Once you make something available via IPFS, somebody might download it and after that you can't really put the genie back in the bottle
<Alpha64>
encryption is a way to save time if you think about it
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<Alpha64>
or rather, gain time
<cjd[m]>
it will ~always be available under that same key
<Alpha64>
because eventually computers will crack any silly encryption we use today
<Alpha64>
padlocks rust
<cjd[m]>
I'm not going to worry much about cracking of encryption, but if you accidently leak a key that could be embarassing and permanent
<krotos>
right, the leaking of a key is a costly mistake from a messaging or cryptocurrency perspective
<cjd[m]>
If you use irc to message with people, your ircd has ssl and it's hosted somewhere safe (for instance) then the messages disappear as soon as they're sent
<cjd[m]>
unless one of your chat partners logs
<r0kk3rz>
yeah key management is an interesting problem, like passwords i dont think you can keep the same one forever
<cjd[m]>
e2e crypto with servers that "promise to delete" is ideal
<krotos>
except with e2e, a third party watching the network can see that end-one sent a message to end-two
<krotos>
which can be more important than the messag itself in some cases
<cjd[m]>
a server which everybody connects to and which is reasonably trusted to keep quiet about whose messaging who can alleviate that issue
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<krotos>
"reasonably trusted" is the part that i'd like to change to a trustless solution if one can be devised
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<cjd[m]>
>if one can be devised
<cjd[m]>
If you figure it out, please do write a paper
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<krotos>
:)
<krotos>
the key management piece is the part that has me the most concerned
<cjd[m]>
in the mean time, federated servers which are housed in fairly secure locations and controlled by reasonably trustworthy people are going to be a great thing
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<r0kk3rz>
yeah, lots of people trying to figure out trustless everything. honestly trust is a useful concept and we've been using it for centuries :)
<krotos>
it's not that i think trust is not useful, it's that verifiably trustful is hard to come by
<cjd[m]>
Trust-networks of humans have certain highly useful properties, centralized states have other properties which are also often highly useful.
<krotos>
and for those that live in places where free speech is not a respected right, the ability to communicate freely with others without fear of death is useful
<cjd[m]>
Anonymity, individualism, rights, freedom and equality are generally properties of States
<cjd[m]>
whereas community, trust, friendship, belonging and tribalism are generally properties of trust networks.
<cjd[m]>
Both have good and bad aspects.
<r0kk3rz>
krotos: in such places you cant speak freely and indiscriminately, you need to trust whom you are talking with
<r0kk3rz>
they could be a govenment agent
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<krotos>
of course
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<pjz>
cjd[m]: accidental key leakage is solved somewhat by 'Perfect Forward Secrecy'
<pjz>
cjd[m]: minimizes exposure
<krotos>
definitely a chance at mitigating the issue, but hard to implement in a p2p set up, been looking into that