<whyrusleeping>
If you have any other questions or issues with that please let us know
<whyrusleeping>
since its an experimental feature, any and all feedback is super welcome
<massino>
Cool, thanks
<massino>
I got it to work between two nodes with direct connectivity
<massino>
The doc doesn't mention NAT traversal in the p2p feature, but I noticed there is another exp feature called "circuit relays", which seem to play that role. So I assume what I'm looking for is p2p + relays
<massino>
Is that right?
<whyrusleeping>
massino: yeah, the relays are manual right now (so you have to manually run `ipfs swarm connect <relay address>`)
<massino>
Also: are pubsub and p2p roughly at the same level of maturity and development velocity? Or is one progressing faster than the other?
<whyrusleeping>
but normal libp2p connections without the relay do some level of NAT traversal (including upnp, NAT-PMP, STUN and basic hole punching)
<massino>
Ah! Good to know
<whyrusleeping>
the pubsub is going to get more attention than the p2p command
<massino>
Also good to know, thanks
<whyrusleeping>
but thats mostly because we arent sure what else to do with the p2p command
<whyrusleeping>
it works pretty well for its usecase
<massino>
Is p2p built on top of pubsub?
<whyrusleeping>
nope, its built on top of raw libp2p connections
<Steverman>
I am still in the process of implementing live streaming through IPFS. The way I have it set up is to use ffmpeg to output segmented HLS to a directory. Since it's a live stream, the segmented .ts files will wrap from 0-10, and m3u8 will constantly be updated according to the files. Is this a good idea to do for IPFS?
<whyrusleeping>
Steverman: hrm... maybe
<whyrusleeping>
I would maybe add each new segment to ipfs, then use pubsub to send the hash to everyone who is streaming it
<Steverman>
My idea was to use pubsub as well
<Steverman>
But honestly, IPFS is like a blackbox for me
<Steverman>
My idea what something like yours, but I'm not sure how well short-lived files are handled
<Steverman>
My idea was*
<whyrusleeping>
short lived files are fine
<whyrusleeping>
make sure to do the add with the --raw-leaves option to avoid any extra framing (this will be default in the future)
<massino>
whyrusleeping: regarding built-in NAT traversal in p2p; that didn't work for me out of the box. Do you have any pointers on where I could go poking? Debug commands, log messages to look for, portions of source code?
<massino>
I have 2 ipfs daemons which cannot connect to each other, but are both properly connected to the public swarm. They can share files with each other at their respective IPNS keys; but they can't connect to each other with p2p
<Steverman>
Can I do that in js?
<whyrusleeping>
massino: okay, and you cant ping one from the other?
<massino>
correct
<whyrusleeping>
Steverman: you should be able to, but i'm not 100% clear on all the javascript stuff
<whyrusleeping>
massino: okay, if you can get me the output of that natest tool on both machines I could help diagnose further
<massino>
I've made sure IP connectivity is the issue; after arranging for the same daemons to connect to each other, p2p works as intended
<whyrusleeping>
we're probably going to build that into ipfs itself soon, sorry about it being some weird extra thing
<massino>
will do whyrusleeping , thank you very much
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<Alpha64_>
i been thinking about content adressing, which mechanism can you use to make a document refer to itself?
<Alpha64_>
the only way would be to use an alias for the hash that you register
<Steverman>
Okay... I still have to read more on this, but does this already solve the problem, where the individual node doesn't have to deliver the data to everyone (broadcast?)? Once other browsers get the segmented files, do they help distribute once other peers request the file?
<whyrusleeping>
Steverman: yeah, if youre using bitswap, then the browser nodes would help distribute the files
<Steverman>
Oh cool
<Steverman>
I suppose bootstrap peers helps with peer discovering
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<Steverman>
If I replace all the default bootstrap peers. Do I get a more private network?
<Steverman>
My idea was that replacing the bootstraps, would reduce the webrtc connections and therefore have less cpu usage from the before mentioned issue
<whyrusleeping>
Steverman: you can use the private networks feature if you want a private network
<whyrusleeping>
though i don't think its implemented in js
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<Steverman>
Is this ipfs-cluster?
<Steverman>
I don't think so either :/
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<whyrusleeping>
nope, ipfs cluster uses a consensus engine to cooperatively store things across multiple nodes
<whyrusleeping>
private networks just adds an extra layer of encryption to all ipfs connections via a pre-shared key so that only people with the key can join the network
<Steverman>
I see
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<Steverman>
Oh, so I am actually doing it without pre-shared key. As in: Kinda private, but if you can find it, you're welcome.
<whyrusleeping>
ah, alright
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<massino>
whyrusleeping: I'm getting Go errors on `go get github.com/whyrusleeping/natest`. Should I be installing from a specific tag?
<whyrusleeping>
massino: ugh, no. Its probably that I accidentally broke something
<whyrusleeping>
mind copy pasting the errors for me?
<massino>
It's complaining about undefined methods in `github.com/whyrusleeping/go-smux-spdystream`
<whyrusleeping>
hrm
<massino>
If it's a small fix I'm happy to do it if you point me in the right direction
<whyrusleeping>
maybe `go get -u github.com/whyrusleeping/natest` ?
<massino>
Ah, I think I understand the problem. Funny :)
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<massino>
Your tool uses `github.com/docker/spdystream`, and by complete coincidence I participated in the development of that. I had an old development checkout of it in my go environment, from the first few weeks of development ;)
<massino>
removing it and installing again fixed it
<lgierth>
:):)
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<massino>
whyrusleeping: just FYI `github.com/libp2p/go-sockaddr` doesn't compile for Go < 1.9. Not an issue for me, but thought you might want to know.
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<Steverman>
What exactly happens when I add a file? I can see that it's still available after I closed my js-ipfs node
<massino>
Manually checking out to the previous commit ( 30f66c7a411fcb45b94c593d98bff7669b6f9c2a ) solved the problem
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<massino>
--> Hurray I have `natest` installed :-D
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<whyrusleeping>
massino: ah, yeah. stebalien just made some changes to go-sockaddr a few minutes ago
<whyrusleeping>
massino: and thanks for the note about swarm, i'll see if we cant get that fixed asap
<massino>
Looks like the solution would be to patch go-libp2p-swarm to use DialContext instead of TimeoutOpts
<massino>
I could patch it this week-end, would be a fun micro-project, but don't have time before that, sorry.
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<whyrusleeping>
massino: no worries, if you find time to do it then that would be great :)
<whyrusleeping>
otherwise i will add it to my todo list
<whyrusleeping>
which will have to wait until i wake up
<whyrusleeping>
because sleep time
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<appa_>
How well has the private network feature work at the moment? I'm soon to start testing a program that uses ipfs heavily, I thought it might be better to start on an isolated network.
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<sam___>
yo
<sam___>
:)
<sam___>
I'm a Python programmer and was wondering how I can contribute to IPFS.
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<MrSparkle>
rewrite ipfs in python
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<dsc_>
MrSparkle: already done it
<dsc_>
i wrote the matrix in .py and you're in it talking to me right now how about that
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<r0kk3rz>
sorry, you misunderstood, he programs pythons, like a snake charmer
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<dsc_>
r0kk3rz: oh. makes sense.
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<Zoggified>
Good day!
<Zoggified>
Are you hiring?
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<Zoggified>
DevOps here. I want to join you guys in the distributed/decentralised quest.
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<JCaesar>
Hm, my ipfs dockercontainer seems to die when I open up the webui…
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<JCaesar>
Hm, maybe FilestoreEnabled is under experimental for a good reason…
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<Li[m]>
IPFS could very much use the host identity protocol, it would take out the problems of PKI authentication of nodes, and reassign the [ DHT, blockchain, mesh-networking ] to a needed part of the network architecture
<Li[m]>
it would also secure the network layer, which would make the entire thing very difficult to monitor transport-layer related metadata
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<Li[m]>
I see the two projects as the same solution to different parts of the problem, one with the problem of identifying/securing data objects, and the other in identifying/securing identities on the network
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<Li[m]>
reading a lot on it, and getting ready to pick up old implementations
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<Steverman>
I was watching a vid from 2015 about Bitswap. Is it still naive? As in: Does it still send duplicate data?
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<revolve>
Li[m]: am I right in saying host identity protocol fits somewhere between the network layer and the application layer?
<Li[m]>
it fits between the network and transport layer
<revolve>
am i right in saying we're waiting for kernel developers to implement support for it?
<Li[m]>
so transport can remain connected across ip address changes even
<revolve>
awesome
<revolve>
am i right in saying we're waiting for kernel developers to implement support for it?
<Li[m]>
yes its pretty compelling. someone wrote an implementation and its been sitting since 2012, so im seeing how it works
<revolve>
thanks for that. generalisation but ..most developers.. probably don't want to be held responsible for a network driver they didn't have any part in developing
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<Kubuxu>
Li[m]: checkout cjdns, it is mesh (or overlay depending how you using it) network protocol that features cryptographically assigned IPv6 addresses
<Kubuxu>
due to that those iP addresses can be used a identities
<Li[m]>
im well aware of cjdns
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<Li[m]>
cjdns is basically an application-layer implementation
<Li[m]>
so it just cant offer all the advantages of doing it directly above the network layer
<cjd[m]>
It would be link layer if you bought the fiber lines and ran cjdns on them natively, it's just that fiber is expensive.
<Li[m]>
maybe some of cjdns code can be used to do it
<Li[m]>
why link layer?
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<Steverman>
I can't seem to cat my files with go-ipfs, when I added a while through js-ipfs
<cjd[m]>
Li: because cjdns only cares about being able to send frames to a fixed set of directly connected peers, it's really designed to send bits down a physical wire or a wireless link. It handles all of the routing internally.
<cjd[m]>
Of course you could say the same thing of IP but generally IP runs on top of Ethernet, cjdns really doesn't need to.
<Li[m]>
right, so you have to redo the network layer basically
<cjd[m]>
Well, need to redo the link layer because there is a lot of physical hardware which also tries to handle the link layer... (for example: If you stop using ethernet cards, what kind of cards will you use to transport data between 2 cjdns switches?)
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<cjd[m]>
technically though, cjdns would be perfectly happy if it had nothing more than a high speed serial interface between nodes
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<appa_>
cjd[m]: I've been curious what you would need to use cjdns over something that wasn't an Ethernet connection
<appa_>
Can it work on a broadcast network?
<appa_>
Or rather one to many.
<cjd[m]>
cjdns really wants to talk only 1 to 1
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<cjd[m]>
which is actually ideal for physical connections because generally they just give you a DMA area or something which is forwarded to another machine
<cjd[m]>
Mainly the job of the ethernet interface plugin in cjdns it to get the ethernet part out of the way in order to be able to use the ethernet hardware as a wire between 2 cjdns nodes
<appa_>
So stuff on my tun0 isn't IP packed?
<cjd[m]>
tun0 is talking IP, yes, but that's the inside, on the outside cjdns talks over whatever network protocol you give it
<cjd[m]>
it can talk over UDP or it can talk directly over ethernet
<cjd[m]>
If we had some other cheap ubiquitous hardware, I'd probably write a module for sending frames over that too
<cjd[m]>
maybe USB-otg would be a good target, but it probably requires writing kernelspace code
<appa_>
So you'd need a module to use special hardware links?
<cjd[m]>
yeah, there's a module inside of cjdns for UDP and one for ETH
<cjd[m]>
they plugin to the InterfaceController
<appa_>
Is there there Bluetooth?
<cjd[m]>
nope
<appa_>
What would be needed for that?
<cjd[m]>
It would be nice to add WLANInterface which automatically sets up an access point and controls the wifi radio directly so that people don't need to setup the access point and then use ETHInterface over top of it.
<cjd[m]>
you have to learn everything there is to know about bluetooth :)
<appa_>
So you'd make a Bluetooth connection then overly cjdns?
<cjd[m]>
you have a lot of options
<cjd[m]>
but generally it's better to reuse a lot of the existing code, so yes, make a bluetooth connection
<appa_>
Hmm, is there a simple case of using a single wire or something?
<cjd[m]>
you could try to get raw control over the bluetooth hardware and get it to send bytes out over the air and then catch those bytes at the other side, but you'll need to rewrite your code for each bluetooth chipset
<cjd[m]>
The problem with a single wire is that there is never just the wire, there's always some kind of hardware chip at each end of it, and you need to talk to that chop
<cjd[m]>
*chip
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<appa_>
I'm imagining using old ham hardware, not that it's legal, just as a concept
<cjd[m]>
The simplest would probably be using uart/serial port but this is going to be horrifyingly slow
<appa_>
So cjdns needs to talk to the modulator
<appa_>
Or encoder?
<cjd[m]>
If you have a fast hardware phy device, it probably maps a memory space somewhere and your job is to write and read bytes to/from parts of that memory space
<cjd[m]>
or write them somewhere else and trigger DMA
<cjd[m]>
anyway lots of very hardware specific code
<appa_>
That makes sense, not that.i know how, just sense
<appa_>
Maybe I'll play with a virtual connection in software
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<cjd[m]>
USB-otg would be a good thing to try to target
<cjd[m]>
however android is making it work, they must know the hooks which are needed
<cjd[m]>
and it would open up a second network port on rasberry pi type devices
<appa_>
You said that would take kernel magic, may be beyond my powers
<cjd[m]>
I'm not sure if it does or not, I mean adb seems to work ok
<cjd[m]>
and it can push/pull files to/from the android phone so that means it has reasonable amount of bandwidth
<appa_>
Would be nice if it was simple as connecting to a /dev/otg or something
<Icefoz_>
base32 is preferred over base64 because DNS doesn't preserve case?
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<Powersource>
ipfs.pin.ls seems to require me to have the hash pinned, what's the recommended alternative if I don't want to pin it?
<Icefoz_>
Powersource: What do you mean? `ipfs pin ls` would list the hashes you have pinned.
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<Powersource>
Icefoz_: I want to list the contents of a hash that I know is a directory
<Icefoz_>
You should be able to just do `ipfs ls <object hash>`
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<Icefoz_>
It will just fetch the directory index.
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<Powersource>
Icefoz_: yes but I'm doing this from the js API and I can't find any ls functions other than the pin one. There's probably some manual way to get the info but that's probably cumbersome, or I could just pin it temporarily but that's a bit hacky and not optimal
<Powersource>
But yes the documentation you linked makes it look like a missing feature in js-ipfs-api
<Icefoz_>
Aaaaah
<Icefoz_>
I haven't used the JS API, sorry.
<Icefoz_>
The API I linked is implemented by the go-ipfs client and I've used it and it works.
<Icefoz_>
So that's all I can really say.
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<lidel>
Icefoz_, yeah the main issue is Origin, which depends on case-insensitive location segment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-origin_policy), so if we used CID as a subdomain, but had two hashes with same letters in different case, a website under one of them could access cookies, local storage of another
<lidel>
that is why we need case-insensitive CIDs
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<lgierth>
host names are also simply defined as being case-insensitive
<lgierth>
Li[m]: could you post any concrete ideas about libp2p and HIP in the ipfs/notes repo? it's hard to properly discuss on IRC, stuff just scrolls away
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