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<plexigras>
is there something like the internet archive but decentralized?
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<sophiya>
the internet
<r0kk3rz>
plexigras: with ipfs, everyone is the internet archive
<r0kk3rz>
you dont really get more decentralised than that
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<plexigras>
yes i am just wondering about discovery
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<Icefoz_>
plexigras: You're not the only one. :-)
<r0kk3rz>
discovery how?
<voker57>
point of internet archive is certifying that certain address contained certain data, you need either authority or smth like blockchain for that
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<r0kk3rz>
except its content addressed
<r0kk3rz>
so you're talking about like an IPNS history or something would could get interesting
<plexigras>
yes i am looking for something that links the none ipfs addresses to the coresponding ipfs adress
<r0kk3rz>
an archive of the http web?
<plexigras>
yes
<plexigras>
i can hash the file at http://exaple.com/index.html and find it on the ipfs but i cant do that if the file no longer exist
<plexigras>
og if i want to find a older version of that file
<whyrusleeping>
Icefoz_: thats left out, somewhat intentionally because they are agnostic
<victorbjelkholm>
jonnycrunch and keks[m] are you around? You're listed as moderator and notetaker
<whyrusleeping>
but we will likely have them in the dht like ipns records are now
<flyingzumwalt>
whyrusleeping how old is that spec? I haven't heard about it before. github history is hiding the actual age of the spec due to a rename
<whyrusleeping>
probably around two years old at this point
<flyingzumwalt>
it will be great when we have an RFC process in place so history information accumulates with these things.
<Icefoz_>
whyrusleeping: But that's the important and hard part of the problem. :|
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<whyrusleeping>
Icefoz_: agreed, for sure.
<whyrusleeping>
Anyone going to post the link for the all hands?
<victorbjelkholm>
flyingzumwalt whyrusleeping joining todays all hands?
<lgierth>
all hands time
<victorbjelkholm>
ah, lazy... Meeting ID is 779351365
<pvh>
daviddias: i've been working on a somewhat related project to peerpad for some time based on our own CRDT derived from the recent JSON CRDT paper (automerge/automerge) i just got it working on IPFS today after some time tinkering away on it (and mostly reading IPFS code). would love to compare notes with you
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<lgierth>
i just kicked
<lgierth>
*got
<lgierth>
did we hit some participants limit? the room now shows as empty for me
<lgierth>
ah there we go
<whyrusleeping>
Yeah, frist said he got kicked too
<lgierth>
mh looks like my connection is just really crappy right now
<frist>
whyrusleeping: hopping on a wired connection helped, think it was my wifi
<lgierth>
ajbouh: i'll get back to you on the addressing asap - the tl;dr is that ideally you could use the ipfs://<hash> and ipns://<hash> scheme
<lgierth>
or dweb:/ipfs/<hash> and dweb:/ipns/<hash>
<lgierth>
the former are properly wellformed URLs, and the latter is a custom new URI scheme that keeps the paths intact
<lgierth>
ideally the iptf-specific things aren't in the same URL or URI scheme, unless you can describe their semantics in terms of content-addressing and signed records
<stebalien>
keks: sorry, not yet. I'll try to take a look today, thanks for reminding me.
<ajbouh>
@lgierth part of the iptf stuff is essentially a proc-like interface to ipfs internals
<ajbouh>
like generating a new key and publishing the ipns update
<keks[m]>
Thanks :)
<ajbouh>
@lgierth there’s also some benefit to the equivalent of .torrent files, so you can write addresses to a file blob that you can check into git, etc
<lgierth>
ah mh i see! it would be useful to get that spelled out so we can reason about the semantics of iptf:// vs. ipfs://
<ajbouh>
@lgierth i’d love it if there was a concept of “here” in ipfs urls
<lgierth>
here, as in "the local node"?
<ajbouh>
“here” being the machine running the daemon and controlling a key
<ajbouh>
yes
<Icefoz_>
Wouldn't the equivalent of a .torrent file be quite similar to an IPLD directory?
<ajbouh>
because you want to do things like list all keys, create new ones, add to logs, etc
<lgierth>
i think at least in the FUSE tools we mount /ipns/local
<ajbouh>
i can adopt that if it’s the preferred approach
<lgierth>
but that's from back in the day when each ipns key had exactly one writer, and vice-versa
<ajbouh>
/ipns/local seems like it’s stomping on the namespace for keys, no?
<lgierth>
yeah it doesn't quite work anymore conceptually nowadays
<ajbouh>
re: .torrent files, i’m not sure what you mean by IPLD directory
<lgierth>
my internet is infuriatingly slow right now
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<ajbouh>
but i’d like to be able to say “this file contains a pointer to the dataset to use"
<ajbouh>
and you can update the pointer by replacing the file
<ajbouh>
there’s some writing about the possible interface to these standalone files
<ajbouh>
(which i refer to as workspaces)
<lgierth>
ooh yeah that old mac80211/ath9k bug... [344656.250000] ath: phy0: Failed to stop TX DMA, queues=0x002!
<Icefoz_>
Well, IPLD is a format for pointing to datasets
<Icefoz_>
so
<lgierth>
ajbouh: great ui'll take a look at that (once my router has recovered)
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<ajbouh>
@Icefoz_ i see, thanks i’m pushing for a simple file with a pointer/url within it
<ajbouh>
i’d like to make sure the file has enough info to support a great user experience
<ajbouh>
i see, ipld has serialization standards
<ajbouh>
thanks for the nudge, would love any other feedback
<miflow[m]>
my understanding isn't that good. Does the cid contain the Filetype or if it is a directory?
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<Icefoz_>
My understanding (which is imperfect) is that a CID is the hash of an arbitrary string, with kindasorta an "address type".
<Icefoz_>
So a CID can refer to an IPFS object, an Ethereum object, etc.
<Icefoz_>
For some reason.
<Icefoz_>
Then an IPFS object can be either raw data, or an IPLD object, which is a tree that connects a bunch of raw data objects together along with metadata like filename, Unix permissions, and other sorts of things as necessary.
<Icefoz_>
Sorta like an inode on a file system.
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<miflow[m]>
Yeah, but it contains also Multicodec, which can also be mp4 or so, but directory or folder isn't listed in the default Multicodec table
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<Icefoz_>
idk, this is somewhere my knowledge is limited
<Icefoz_>
And mp4 doesn't seem to have an actual value in the multicodec CSV
<miflow[m]>
multicodec/table.csv at master · multiformats/multicodec · GitHub
<Icefoz_>
Seems more sensible to have file type metadata in the IPLD block.
<Icefoz_>
Since most of those things seem to be encoding formats, not file types.
<Icefoz_>
MP4 and MKV are theoretically-usable-for-anything container formats, but still.
<miflow[m]>
393
<Icefoz_>
Yes, I see it.
<Icefoz_>
There's no code for it.
<Icefoz_>
It just says "0x"
<miflow[m]>
I'm somewhat confused
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<Icefoz_>
You're not the only one.
<Icefoz_>
I get very grumpy whenever it becomes obvious that IPFS is working super hard on building a big fancy mansion with all these cool features when the foundation is held together with sticks and duct tape and "we'll fix it up later"
<Icefoz_>
Which is pretty often.
<Icefoz_>
But, it is improving, so.
<r0kk3rz>
why does it need one? IPLD > IP Linked Data, mp4 isnt linked data raw hash addressing is fine
<whyrusleeping>
I wouldnt call that a 'duct tape foundation'
<whyrusleeping>
its more of a blueprint for rooms that don't exist yet
<Icefoz_>
So the plan is to extend multicodec indefinitely to encompass every file format that exists or will exist?
<Icefoz_>
We have a system for that, it's called MIME types.
<whyrusleeping>
No, its not
<Icefoz_>
And you don't need to know what type a block is to retrieve it, you just need to know "IPLD" or "something else".
<Icefoz_>
Then IPLD can describe what the "something else" is.
<whyrusleeping>
you don't even need to know if its ipld or not to fetch it
<Icefoz_>
Exactly, but you need to know if it's IPLD to see whether you're done fetching things or not, and putting it in the address seems more reliable than trying to detect it from the content.
<whyrusleeping>
theres a difference between structure and content here
<Icefoz_>
IPLD already has content metadata in it.
<Icefoz_>
Filenames, permissions, etc.
<Icefoz_>
The unixfs part of it at least.
<whyrusleeping>
right, unixfs is a format *on top* of ipld
<Icefoz_>
So when would it ever make my life easier to be able to retrieve a block and know "This is MP4" and nothing else about it?
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<Icefoz_>
When I get a block, I'd assume either it's IPLD, in which case there's a venue for giving me metadata
<Icefoz_>
Or it's raw data, in which I need to know what it is out-of-band
<Icefoz_>
And one number giving me a file format isn't enough info for that since blocks can be chunked and such.
<Icefoz_>
s/block/object/
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<Icefoz_>
I'm probably misunderstanding this all
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<Icefoz_>
But the lack of an actual bottom-to-top description, marked with "this exists", "this exists but is flaky", "this doesn't exist", "we theoretically know how to do this", and "this is being figured out still" is really frustrating sometimes.
<Icefoz_>
It just exists in people's heads
<Icefoz_>
and 70,000 lines of Go
<Icefoz_>
I'm annoyed at other stuff as well and taking it out here, which I shouldn't do, so I'm sorry. z_z
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<r0kk3rz>
its fairly normal for a fast moving project
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<Icefoz_>
That doesn't mean it's good.
<lgierth>
ack
<lgierth>
dock's are gonna move fast too, soon
<Icefoz_>
sorry. I know.
<lgierth>
*docs :)
<Icefoz_>
I'd offer to help if I didn't have six impossible things to do before breakfast already.
<lgierth>
haha i feel you
<Icefoz_>
I just want to build applications using IPFS as a storage backend.
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<r0kk3rz>
the docs will always lag behind though, and some of these things are still quite new
<Icefoz_>
The docs will NOT always lag behind.
<Icefoz_>
You write something
<Icefoz_>
you document it
<Icefoz_>
then you release it.
<Icefoz_>
The documentation is part of the system.
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<Icefoz_>
If docs are missing, it's an unimplemented feature. If docs are erroneous, it's a bug.
<Icefoz_>
When something's an experiment then it's reasonable for docs to be scanty
<Icefoz_>
But if you want people to actually use something, documentation is the best way to do it.
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<whyrusleeping>
Icefoz_: > ... a block and know "This is MP4" and nothing else ...
<whyrusleeping>
I don't think this is something we ever do
<whyrusleeping>
there is no cid for mp4 files or any other sort of format like that
<whyrusleeping>
we have cids for the old protobuf format, cbor, ethereum*, zcash*, bitcoin* and git
<Icefoz_>
CIDv1 includes a "multicodec-packed-content-type"
<whyrusleeping>
multicodecs are just numbers for things, they are used all over. That table exists so numbers from one context don't overlap with numbers from another context
<whyrusleeping>
hash codes are in that table as well
<whyrusleeping>
and networking protocols (used for multiaddr)
<whyrusleeping>
daviddias: want to elaborate on the 'one big table' bit?
<Icefoz_>
Right, and?
<Icefoz_>
Is it invalid to shove the multicodec value for "TCP" in a CIDv1 multicodec content type then?
<Icefoz_>
What values are actually allowable in which contexts?
<Icefoz_>
How do these parts actually fit together?
<Icefoz_>
etc.
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<Icefoz_>
Okay, I think I begin to see a little.
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<Icefoz_>
The idea is that CID is a content identifier for anything under the sun
<Icefoz_>
and IPFS uses a subset of CID functionality to address its objects of various types.
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<Icefoz_>
Presumably an IPFS object's CID will be either "raw" or one of the IPLD formats (presumably, canonically, eventually, dag-cbor).
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<whyrusleeping>
yes, it is invalid to use a tcp multicodec in a cid
<whyrusleeping>
each context that uses a multicodec supports some subset of the multicodec table
<lgierth>
we should get that straight
<Icefoz_>
What contexts can use a multicodec?
<lgierth>
what's networking, what's content-addressed / CID, etc.
<Icefoz_>
See the great thing about documentation
<Icefoz_>
is you get to spend a lot less time explaining this stuff to people on IRC. :D
<Icefoz_>
(At least, that's been my experience.)
<lgierth>
once the proper tooling is in place, next week or so, i will only help you if you convert my responses into prose for docs.ipfs.io
<lgierth>
:)
<lgierth>
i'll help you regardless of course
<lgierth>
but the contribution is gonna be only a click away
<lgierth>
ok gonna go for a swim
<Icefoz_>
All right!
<Icefoz_>
Have fun.
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<whyrusleeping>
Yeah, the one big table thing was not something I was a huge fan of
<whyrusleeping>
I knew it would end up being confusing like this...
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<pjz>
why is ipfs eating all my (single) cpu? I've got a GB of RAM