<whyrusleeping>
it runs an ipfs node with a gui, and then stays as a little icon in your task bar
<RingtailedFox>
oooooooh
<RingtailedFox>
downloading node.js
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<RingtailedFox>
blargh, now it;'s whining about Git not being in path
<RingtailedFox>
but it's already in path!
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<zignig>
whyrusleeping : interesting discussion on HN about filecoid.
<zignig>
*filecoin
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<Icefoz_>
zignig: Anything good? Considering filecoin is still vaporware afaik.
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<lgierth>
Icefoz_: now that you're running a pinning service you're official not impartial anymore :)
<Alpha64>
there are no discussions on hn
<Alpha64>
it's r/iamverysmart
<Alpha64>
it was never "great" but right now it's uhghh
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<Alpha64>
"here's a thing i worked on" -> "it sucks, why didn't you use rsync and setup a nat and blah blah blah"
<Icefoz_>
lgierth: touche. :-P Though said service has yet to be fully operational, let alone have customers.
<lgierth>
ah so you're also in the vaporware business
<lgierth>
nice to meet
<Icefoz_>
lol
<Icefoz_>
Though I've thought about that... if filecoin ends up cheaper than a dedicated storage service for equivalent reliability and service, then a pinning service is uneconomical...
<Icefoz_>
but the solution is to turn things around and offer a filecoin->http gateway or such.
<Icefoz_>
And I can build that just as easily.
<Icefoz_>
So I'm not super worried either way.
<zignig>
Icefoz_: it was in response to a paper implying that filecoin is a Ponzi scheme...
<lgierth>
the paper itself is actually pretty great
<lgierth>
and pretty explicit in saying "no"
<lgierth>
it's a very unfortunate choice of a title
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<zignig>
Many people don't seem to understand that the entire Global Finance system is a big Ponzi scheme.
<Icefoz_>
zignig: Aha.
<Icefoz_>
Well from the outside, filecoin ICO behavior is not entirely without reproach, though also not without merit.
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<Icefoz_>
The global finance system is a method of selling trust and risk.
<zignig>
indeed it was an interesting read, and lgierth agreed , title was a bit clickbaity
<Alpha64>
if nobody calls something you are making a ponzi scheme at some point then you need to try harder
<Icefoz_>
filecoin's ICO is also a matter of selling trust and risk.
<zignig>
Icefoz_: the global finance system is a method of hocking our grandchildren for the profit now and the enrichment of a very small percentage of the population.
<lgierth>
did the marx discussion just spill over from HN
<lgierth>
he'd spin in his grave at that characterization ^ of capitalism
<Icefoz_>
zignig: Well whether the trust is worthy and the risk is represented fairly is a matter of debate. ;-) I won't agree that it tends towards the exploitative.
<Icefoz_>
*disagree
<Icefoz_>
Sounds like I should read this paper though.
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<zignig>
Icefoz_: indeed, I'll dig up the link HN had some interesting commentry.
<lgierth>
it'd be great for the level of discourse about filecoin if the "exploitative ico terms" claim would be more substantive
<Icefoz_>
zignig: All right, fair enough.
<lgierth>
it usually is never explained further than "it was was structured in a way that made it uninteresting to *me*"
<Icefoz_>
lgierth: pffft that'd take actual *effort* to acquire enough domain knowledge to grok the details :-P
<lgierth>
i've just read "vaporware" and "exploitative" 1000s of times on reddit and twitter
<zignig>
Icefoz_: hehe, would want that , when you can attribute it to [invisible hand of the market/$DEITY/$GOV/aliens]
<Icefoz_>
lgierth: I can sympathize, sorry for bringing it up in those terms.
<Icefoz_>
I'm a *little* drunk.
* zignig
hands Icefoz_ another Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster.
<lgierth>
it's fine - you're competition so i can't really argue with that ;)
<Icefoz_>
In actual fact my opinion of filecoin is "if it works it will be awesome" and "I see no technical reason it shouldn't work", tempered with a fair amount of cautious pessimism.
<Icefoz_>
That's the thing.
<Icefoz_>
I'm *not* competition.
<lgierth>
:)
<Icefoz_>
Competition is often a false dichotomy.
<lgierth>
i know, just teasing now
<Icefoz_>
fiiiiiiine.
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<Alpha64>
Icefoz_ i see value in pinning for dapps, maybe not permanent but for a little bit, pin this for a week for example
<Alpha64>
withotu dealing with the complexities of filecoin
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<Icefoz_>
Anyway, that being said, filecoin *is* currently vaporware, has raised a frankly absurd amount of money on rather slim promises, and got that much probably through hype of the general cryptocurrency trend in general rather than specific merit (though it and its creators have more merit than most).
<Icefoz_>
Alpha64: Pinning for something like mostly-static web assets, dropbox-like things, and so on seems like it should be perfectly useful.
<Icefoz_>
lgierth: alas, a public API is still in the works. :-P
<zignig>
I think IPFS will be good substrate for lots of data thingys, file coin being one of them.
<Icefoz_>
*yes*
<Icefoz_>
content addressing is secretly amazing.
<Icefoz_>
it is what will really change the world, slowly and subtly but profoundly.
<zignig>
the Net Neutrality thing going on in the USA at the moment shows that the encumbants cannot be trusted to provide a even playing field.
<neuthral>
+1 ^_^
<Icefoz_>
It may or may not be IPFS specifically that does it but some system with content addressing will become indespensible.
<Icefoz_>
and IPFS seems to be the best contender at the moment.
<zignig>
all I want in life is an unfair advantage./
* zignig
whistles
<lgierth>
there's actually an IETF RFC about what makes network protocols succeed or fail
<Icefoz_>
lgierth: Oooh, cool. Which one?
<Icefoz_>
As if my poor intoxicated brain doesn't have enough to read right now.
<lgierth>
opportunity cost is a significant factor, so you need to interoperate well, at many layers at the same time
<Kythyria[m]>
I'm sort of reminded of the facility for putting hashes as attributes of <script> tags. In theory you could use those for content-addressing instead of the actual URL.
<lgierth>
and you need to leave space at many layers for other people's things that you didn't anticipate
<zignig>
lgierth: indeed, open enough to be flexible, but not so open as to create a splintered ecosystem.
<zignig>
difficult balance
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<Icefoz_>
lgierth: That is frankly one of my main objections with how IPFS as a software project is structured... it is imagined as a whole ecosystem of interrelated things that are fairly self-contained, not a fundamental but simple tool for other things to interoperate with.
<lgierth>
Icefoz_: it's a wibbly-wobbly of interoperable things, not just one thing
<lgierth>
that's why i say interoperate at many layers
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<Icefoz_>
lgierth: Yes, but those interoperable things mostly interoperate with each other, not anything else.
<Icefoz_>
Or so it seems to me.
<Icefoz_>
Still need to learn more, I confess.
<lgierth>
the gateway is for interop, ipfs:// is for interop, js-ipfs is for interop, ipld is for interoperability, libp2p's various modules are for various interops :)
<lgierth>
i could go on
<lgierth>
dnslink!
<Icefoz_>
Fair enough!
<Icefoz_>
What is dnslink?
<lgierth>
each is for interop for certain use cases, and often you combine several of them
<lgierth>
for deferring to dns for names
<lgierth>
e.g. /ipns/ipfs.io and `dig TXT ipfs.io`
<Icefoz_>
Aha, found it.
<lgierth>
the whole ipfs stack looks extremely opinionated on the first and second looks
<Icefoz_>
yep. :-P
<lgierth>
but in fact i'd argue it's one of the least opinionated pieces of network/data software that exists
<lgierth>
it leaves room for so many other things in its protocols
<Icefoz_>
It does tend to make its opinions explicit, at least once you figure out how the heck to decode where it hides them.
<Icefoz_>
Its opinions are just also often not similar to the opinions that have become conventions since the late 80's.
<lgierth>
exactly, and that means it leaves room for other opinions of how stuff should be done
<Icefoz_>
Yeah.
<Icefoz_>
But that's the thing
<lgierth>
we made so many pretty significant changes over the years that were only possible because of this pluggable approach (multiformats etc.)
<Icefoz_>
It builds lots of un-opinionated infrastructure, but little of the existing opinionated infrastructure understands how to interoperate with it.
<lgierth>
otherwise they would have required an upgrade plan similar to git's hash change plan
<Icefoz_>
At even a very fundamental level, such as things like DNS.
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<Icefoz_>
But nothing knows how to parse a multihash or multiformat, nothing knows how to resolve a dnslink, and nothing knows how to resolve a gx import.
<Icefoz_>
Let alone provide these things in turn.
<lgierth>
that is true -- nothing knew how to handle a http:// URL before the support got added
<Icefoz_>
Sure, but now we have http:// ftp:// https:// gopher:// (if you really want to) file:// and so on.
<lgierth>
it's a certain set of design practices you opt into, and then at one point you notice that protocol-ish upgrades that would previously have been an aweful mess, are now easy
<Icefoz_>
But suddenly we also have /ipfs/Qm and /ipns/... and whatever which do *more* than URL's do but also do everything URL's do and there's no initially obvious reason why they couldn't just be URL's.
<lgierth>
yeah, that's a pretty fragmented namespace eh?
<lgierth>
and each of them has its own semantics
<Icefoz_>
(There's subtly obvious reasons.)
<Icefoz_>
Not really, within the limits of their semantics.
<lgierth>
ipfs:// and ipns:// is also just for interop
<lgierth>
in the longterm we'd like to get back to one unified unix-ish namespace
<lgierth>
put and end to URLs
<Icefoz_>
url://username:password@location:port/path is pretty universal, while the details may vary.
<Icefoz_>
s/url/protocol/
<lgierth>
and even that can be made interopable: dweb: URIs a la dweb:/ipfs/QmFoo
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<Icefoz_>
There's no apparent reason it couldn't be ipfs:/QmFoo/optional-unixfs-path
<lgierth>
the url format is pretty universal for the specific model it was designed for
<lgierth>
the reason for that is namespacing. this addressing format isn't supposed to be only about ipfs
<lgierth>
that's the leaving-room-for-others
<Icefoz_>
I totally agree, and laud it
<Icefoz_>
but IPFS is the only thing currently that actually needs it.
<Icefoz_>
And IPFS doesn't even need it.
<Icefoz_>
Because its needs seem fully encompassed by the url format.
<lgierth>
dweb:/git dweb:/zcash dweb:/scuttlebut dweb:/dat -- all slightly different high-level semantics, but all relying on hash-linked data that can be moved with ipfs
<Icefoz_>
So it *feels* like it's trying to reinvent the world for no reason.
<Icefoz_>
I do feel the distinction between location-based addressing and content-based, hash-linked data is quite fundamental
<Icefoz_>
but I see no particular need to re-invent the world because of it.
<lgierth>
sure, right now there's only ipfs. hopefully there's gonna be more in the future. and once that's the case, we're gonna be prepared well
<Icefoz_>
Because the current world seems capable of encompassing it pretty easily.
<lgierth>
url schemes are fragmentation, imho
<Icefoz_>
What's the benefit of dweb:/scuttlebutt/foo over scuttlebut://foo/ ?
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<lgierth>
the introduction of the url idea was a fragmentation. we can't have nice things because people diverted from the unix filesystem namespace
<Icefoz_>
It seems to describe the exact same information.
<Icefoz_>
Well the unix filesystem namespace is a hack anyway.
<Icefoz_>
Not everything is a file.
<Icefoz_>
Life is a bit more complicated than that.
<Icefoz_>
And made more so by the fact that increasing abstraction tends to involve the overhead of plugging up the leaks in that abstraction, so anyone determinedly performance-minded will do their best to punch through those layers.
<Icefoz_>
(This isn't saying that OS's shouldn't or can't have a unifying abstraction, just that Unix files are insufficient.)
<Icefoz_>
Sorry if I'm being annoying lgierth, I am really interested in conversation but I seem to be in an adversarial mood at this moment...
<Icefoz_>
*this conversation
<lgierth>
no no it's fine, good discussion
<lgierth>
i'm looking for this one link
<lgierth>
the unix filesystem is just a namespace tree
<lgierth>
it doesn't actually have to be all files
<lgierth>
it's just "something" at a certain path
<Icefoz_>
Right.
<lgierth>
i'd actually have loved to just go with file:///ipfs/QmFoo, but it turns out file:// is unfortunately a clusterfuck
<lgierth>
(in web browsers)
<Icefoz_>
When you get a distributed namespace tree you start introducing the possibility of inconvenient things happening in various exciting places, like DNS failure
<Icefoz_>
but URL's seem to me to still be a convenient if imperfect method for describing a distributed namespace.
<Icefoz_>
Oh, I can believe that file:// is a clusterfuck.
<Icefoz_>
But with a distributed namespace tree you also start making obvious things impossible... there's no good way to list *every* .com domain. It's possible, but really difficult.
<lgierth>
the early dns people themselves admit it should have been the other way round, com.example :)
<lgierth>
btw how is listing every .com domain an obvious thing!?
<Icefoz_>
In a namespace such as a file system, "enumerate every member" seems like a generally fundamental operation
<Kythyria[m]>
It's obvious if you think of DNS as a directory in a unix filesystem.
<Icefoz_>
such that it gets a rare two-letter command to do so, ls. :-P
<lgierth>
.com is not a distributed namespace though
<lgierth>
there is one source of truth for that data
<Icefoz_>
That is true.
<miflow[m]>
Agree on unique identifiers/addresses for the existing namespace trees and iterate through
<Icefoz_>
The "agree" part seems to be the hard bit, and having one source of truth (while not easy) seems to generally be the easiest method.
<Icefoz_>
Though it also has downsides. :-P
<Kythyria[m]>
Icefoz_: I'm starting to suspect there's two different notions of what "unix filesystem" means. One is a filesystem. The other is that it's a stringly typed RPC system.
<lgierth>
and even if's a hierarchical namespace, nonexistent.com is still a name in .com -- there's a slight difference between an address/name, and what it points to
<Icefoz_>
Kythyria[m]: From what very little I've dabbled in OS dev, the "RPC system" notion is the more useful one for OS's.
<Kythyria[m]>
Icefoz_: It's a _shitty_ RPC system though.
<Kythyria[m]>
You have a handful of operations, the only types are byte strings, and there is barely more introspection than C.
<Kythyria[m]>
You can't even tell if the handle you were just given is usable!
<Icefoz_>
Kythyria[m]: Yep! GOOD OS's will have a more powerful RPC system. Hence ending up with things like L4 that are basically message passing systems that happen to run in ring0.
<miflow[m]>
Ipfs single source of truth for example is the cid right?
<Kythyria[m]>
(you might, for instance, have been given a non-seekable handle when you needed a seekable handle)
<Icefoz_>
It's entertaining that we come to this topic since I just re-registered a bunch of domains today that I'd inconveiently let expire. :-P
<Kythyria[m]>
Icefoz_: Yep, and L4 is only a _starting point_ for a decent RPC system, you need some worthwhile userland on top of it.
<Icefoz_>
Kythyria[m]: You can represent a *lot* of things with good message passing, from OS system calls to multi-threaded communication to REST-style RPC to Hadoop-style distributed map/reduce to supercomputer-style communication like MPI
<Icefoz_>
The trick is the're a cost/benefit tradeoff to where you make the abstraction breaks which tends to vary based on needs, so no one system is univerally good.
<Icefoz_>
And there's always some overhead, because computers are not really message-passing machines, so breaking the abstraction in the name of performance is often very tempting.
<Icefoz_>
aaaaaanyway.
<Kythyria[m]>
I think the supposed superiority of unix filesystem as the One True RPC Interface is actually a side effect of the supposed superiority of bourne shell.
<Icefoz_>
That's a thesis I haven't heard before! :D
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<Icefoz_>
Anyway, hackernews is about as useful as usual, so I should go on to the actual paper.
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<Icefoz_>
...I have spent far too much time in academia.
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<flyinglasanga[m]>
off topic! does anyone happen to know how it is javascript testing frameworks report to the environment they run in that a test failed? It seems to be more than process.exit(1)
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<Icefoz_>
okay, filecoin involves an algorithm called zk-SNARK
<Icefoz_>
All objections retracted.
<Icefoz_>
It's the best thing since Bittorrent.
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<JCaesar>
Btw, why doesn't ipfs filter out 127.0.0.0/8 and ::1/128 addresses? It doesn't seem useful to propagate those…
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<JCaesar>
Btw, is imagenet on ipfs anywhere? I noticed that getting a copy of that isn't exactly easy…
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<victorbjelkholm>
flyinglasanga[m]: exiting with a non-zero status code is pretty much it for reporting errors, unless you have a reporter to output the report in some lcov format or similar
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<FreeBitCoin>
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<FreeBitCoin>
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<FreeBitCoin>
Make sure u use my refferal code
<FreeBitCoin>
gives us lifetime bonus $$$
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<archheretic>
Hi I wonder, is communication between a web front end in IPFS and a dapp secure? One of my use cases is sending passwords and sensitive information from a web page in IPFS to my backend running as a dapp.
<whyrusleeping>
archheretic: is that happening locally?
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<Alpha64>
you can't use passwords with a blockchain
<Alpha64>
unless you encrypt the data before sending it
<Alpha64>
but if you send a password to decrypt from within a contract, then everybody has access to the key
<archheretic>
yes I understand that using the blockchains inbuilt security system is the way to go, but im just building a naive prototype as part of a very short school project
<Alpha64>
you don't need something like https
<Alpha64>
to do anything with the contract you need to sign the transactions, using the wallet, like metamask
<archheretic>
My use case is: User writes in credentials in through my web interface stored in IPFS, this get sent to my backend that is running as a dapp, which then sends it from my wallet address to the correct contract. The contract checks that it is indeed sent from my wallet address and that the credentials (that the user typed in) is correct.
<archheretic>
I know that this is a flawed way of doing it, and I will write that in my report, but I wonder is it even possible to do it?
<archheretic>
In a way that other people cant sniff the password (or password hash) between the IFPS app and the dapp app
<archheretic>
I know that sending password from the dapp to the contract is extremely unsafe, even much worse then sending them over http
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<Alpha64>
well you see, you don't need credentials
<Alpha64>
it is not unsafe, you are broadcasting your password to the whole ethereum network
<Alpha64>
you are willingly sharing it
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<whyrusleeping>
archheretic: when you say "dapp", do you mean contract?
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<archheretic>
I'm not very familiar with the ecosystem yet, but if I have understod correctly you can run nodejs as a desentralized application, which then again can communicate with a contract
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<archheretic>
or perhaps I've misunderstood, the dapp is the solidity contract part ;2~
<archheretic>
* ?
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<Alpha64>
no, nodejs is not decentralized
<Alpha64>
a "dapp" is generally some html + js that you can fetch with ipfs, and it talks to a contract through a wallet, like metamask
<Alpha64>
or mist
<archheretic>
I think I understand it better now
<Alpha64>
your js can ask the wallet to send a tx
<Alpha64>
if you want to know if somebody is who he says, you should have your own list with address -> name
<Alpha64>
because only the ones with the private key can send transactions on behalf of that address
<Alpha64>
do you follow ?
<archheretic>
yes
<Alpha64>
all the js has to run on the client
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<natewalck>
Hey all! Is there a way to get json out of the `ipfs stats` command ?
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<whyrusleeping>
natewalck: use --json
<whyrusleeping>
or the api
<whyrusleeping>
er
<whyrusleeping>
not --json, --enc=json
<natewalck>
K, I tried --json
<natewalck>
--enc is win
<natewalck>
PERFECT :) Thanks! :)
<natewalck>
I assume that --enc works on any/all output for ipfs
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<whyrusleeping>
natewalck: yeap! all the commands
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<whyrusleeping>
sickill: thats a really great thing to have supported all over :)
<sickill>
:)
<whyrusleeping>
would be cool to have modules that first check if a daemon is running, then fall back to the gateway for the download
<sickill>
should I then stop supporting fs:/ and ipfs:/ and only support dweb:/ipfs/... now?
<sickill>
yeah, totally
<whyrusleeping>
i would keep supporting ipfs, i don't imagine that will die soon
<sickill>
PRs welcome ;)
<whyrusleeping>
haha, if only i wrote python
<sickill>
ok adding new check for dweb:/ipfs/
<whyrusleeping>
yay!
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<sickill>
I also have examples of playback from IPFS in the README, showing both fs:/ and ipfs:/ now, but would rather show the most recommended one there
<sickill>
if ipfs-companion is not even listing fs:/ and ipfs:/ then I'll go with only dweb:/ipfs/.. example I guess