00:33 <stellar-slack1> <dzham> @brian.ebert: I obviously love the platform, I wouldn’t have spent 1.5 years here otherwise

00:59 <stellar-slack1> <lab> new comers are positive as we were and we are negative as stellartalk guys were. sadly.

01:00 <stellar-slack1> <dzham> @lab: I know, it’s a bit ironic

01:02 <stellar-slack1> <dzham> Lack of users isn’t a problem if you can bring your own, i.e. develop your product on top of Stellar, in a way that’s agnostic for the user. I’ve seen great examples of that, and they should be coming on soon.

01:03 <stellar-slack1> <dzham> If your market is *existing* users though, you’re in the cold

01:05 <stellar-slack1> <lab> it's the logic of idealism. have you ever heard investors advice?

01:06 <stellar-slack1> <lab> If stellar network has not enough users (eg, network effect), why will you built on that instead of your own?

01:07 <stellar-slack1> <lab> we know the current stellar network is only 8k account. if you have a application estimate 200k user.

01:09 <stellar-slack1> <lab> so some potential applications will shift to private chain , bitcon or ethereum.

01:13 <stellar-slack1> <dzham> It would be interesting to know how may people keep their XLM at exchanges instead of in their own accounts on the ledger

01:15 <stellar-slack1> <lab> obvious sdf try to build a garden where plants grows organically.

01:18 <stellar-slack1> <lab> but too many seeds failed because of garden keeper regard desertification as natural phenomenon.

01:29 <stellar-slack1> <lab> we have lost one most active exchange, one most active forum, two of best ledger explorers in the last 1.5yr and not even recovered from any field.

02:06 <stellar-slack1> <dzham> The way the original signup program was implemented obvisously took everyone by surprise. But even with 99% fake signups (and that's an understatement), there still were lots of *actual users*. There was *hype*. There was *excitement*. There was a "*Let's do this!*" attitude.

02:06 <stellar-slack1> <dzham> Then the forking debacle happened, and the air just went out. If that had never happened, we'd probably be OK. But it did, and here we are. The platform is *quite a lot better* now than before, so that's all good. But the thing is, you can't launch something twice. People won't care the second time.

02:07 <stellar-slack1> <dzham> So organic just makes a lot more sense.

02:09 <stellar-slack1> <brian.ebert> Hey guys, cheer up. There are a lot of reasons to build on top of an existing platform instead of building your own. I have a hard time with the thought: hey, let me build an app on top of bit coin so I can get at all those users. User volume has to result from the intersection of the currency and another network, be it mobile or social or whatever. The low number of existing Stellar users may not be

02:09 <stellar-slack1> retardant. It is just a fact to be dealt with. Things are fragile at this stage. I have an advantage over a lot of you: I am really, really old. Dinosaur old? No. Think dirt. I've seen "dead" technologies before. Like Bluetooth. So far, what I see here are some really talented people, who seem committed to making a difference in the lives of others. Keep doing your best. It's all you can do.

02:13 <stellar-slack1> <dzham> This is actually us being positive, you should hear us when we’re not :)

02:13 <stellar-slack1> <dzham> Like I said before, “Bring your own users” and you’re OK

02:14 <stellar-slack1> <dzham> But there’s a lot of infrastructure level things we’re you depend on the network users. E.g. Wallets

02:26 <stellar-slack1> <sacarlson> I look at Stellar as more than just an asset tracking system, but as an educational platform, with an incredible group of people to work with here that makes it all fun and rewarding for me. I don't concern myself with numbers like many others seem to. I see value for what it really is. Things are evolving at a fantastic rate and I'm honored to be a very small part of it.

03:26 <stellar-slack1> <dzham> @brian.ebert: you’re not the *only* old guy here.

05:37 <stellar-slack1> <eva> Hey everyone :) Just logging on after walking around the city all day. Just wanted to address some of the general convo from earlier: @brian.ebert hit the nail right on the head in terms of how we're approaching Stellar growth. It's meant to be a platform for *others* to build on (as @dzham also pointed out). Sustainable, substantative growth - the kind that matters, the kind that will reach 2 bil unbanked people

05:37 <stellar-slack1> integration. It sort of depends on what metrics you're using to define success; right now, we're focused on helping developers build for their own communities, so the end user count won't necessarily be hockey-sticking right now. Hope that helps clarify a little bit. I'm also happy to chat about what success metrics *you* are all looking at. What does community success look like to all of you?

05:39 <stellar-slack1> <eva> And @acetakwas wow, this is a fantastic post. Thank you so much for writing this! This bit really warms my heart: "And so far, I've been received with warm arms. I encourage many budding programmers looking to get their feet wet with open source projects to join this platform and make some contributions."

05:59 <stellar-slack> <dzham> I'm all for sustainable, organic growth. It's just frustrating as someone who depends on actual users, to do general network wide technology stuff. Even for more specific things, people go with other platforms, because they see the traction.

08:03 <stellar-slack> <lab> did sdf try any *positive* support to early adopters?

08:13 <stellar-slack> <lab> regardless those things passed long away.

08:15 <stellar-slack> <lab> sdf i was believing as community oriented would have took part in bootstrapping the community inflation pool.

08:19 <stellar-slack> <lab> there were lots of these kind of things should be proposed and implemented intentionally from sdf.

08:26 <stellar-slack> <lab> delivering of bounty (amount is irrelevant) for developers should happened times in weekly updates. we have none.

08:36 <stellar-slack> <lab> i believe there are many ways to support community growth consistent to the mandate. actually my understanding of the mandate in the first day stellar launch is quite different from what i have seen in the past 1.5yr.

08:46 <stellar-slack> <lab> @brian.ebert, as being old, you must know NeXT, do you enjoy stellar's 'success' as that?

08:53 <stellar-slack> <lab> it's far from the metaphor of smtp or ip we used for stellar.

09:00 <stellar-slack> <lab> if stellar is only "unbankedcoin" instead "open financial infrastructure", it wont interest me. there are already many "earthcoin", "cleanwatercoin", "charitycoin", etc..

09:50 <stellar-slack> <john> @lab and that is exactly what differentiate Stellar form the rest: *free financial inclusion.* While most (if not all) altcoin are based on profit, Stellar aim to improve our financial system and give an equal opportunity to make money work for everyone.

09:51 <stellar-slack> <lab> how do you think of bitpesa?

09:55 <stellar-slack> <lab> helping financial inclusion is the intrinsic character of almost all crytocurrency

09:56 <stellar-slack> <lab> the one which can archive it is the one grow rapidly enough.

09:57 <stellar-slack> <lab> network effect is magnitude overkill

09:59 <stellar-slack> <lab> there will be non profits focus on financial inclusion solution based on ethereum eventually if it gains enough critical mass to explode in network effect first.

10:01 <stellar-slack> <lab> it will be also very low cost. I complain so much because i do hope the winner is stellar.

10:02 <stellar-slack> <lab> as i said, i was positive as you in the last year.

10:15 <stellar-slack> <john> What do I think of Bitpesa? Like any other exchanges based on Bitcoin, they will not go far. Why? Because Bitcoin cannot evolve. To my opinion, they are only 3 organisations that will succeed in time: Stellar, Ripple & Ethereum. Each one with a specific agenda: Stellar's aim is to provide affordable financial inclusion for all (banks, startup & people), Ripple's aim is to assist banks (only) with new services for

10:15 <stellar-slack> will facilitate smart contract & blockchain tech for all. I'm sorry you feel a bit negative about the value of your Lumens but there is an inherent risk associated with all new ventures. Remember that *"failures are the stepping stones to success"*

10:49 <stellar-slack> <lab> i am not negative or worrying about my lumens invest. lack of discussing between sophisticated explorers on further topic makes me sad.

11:06 <stellar-slack> <lab> advocating market targeting attract my participating when i'm new to stellar.

11:09 <stellar-slack> <dzham> I’d have to agree with lab on supporting developers. Coming back to the giveaway program, people who spent all their time figuring out how to defraud it made bank. Developers who spent their time figuring out how to support the ecosystem, they didn’t.

11:09 <stellar-slack> <dzham> For me it’s quite obvious who you’d want on your team

11:10 <stellar-slack> <lab> @dzham: old guy, let me show you why the logic of "Bring your own user" which i believed before is broken.

11:10 <stellar-slack> <dzham> They basically gave away millions of USD to cheaters

11:11 <stellar-slack> <dzham> lab: :)

11:13 <stellar-slack> <lab> i really enjoy chat with old guy although fewer and fewer exist.

11:13 <stellar-slack> <dzham> I’m not *dinosaur*, or *dirt* old. Just *8-bit computer* old

11:14 <stellar-slack> <dzham> True, the older you get, the less old people remain

11:14 <stellar-slack> <lab> are you 7000str old or 3000str old?

11:14 <stellar-slack> <lab> :grinning:

11:15 <stellar-slack> <dzham> Oh, I signed up on the first day, so that was, how much… 8000 STR?

11:15 <stellar-slack> <lab> much close to it. i cannot figure out the details either.

11:15 <stellar-slack> <lab> back to main topic.

11:16 <stellar-slack> <lab> when we are talk about "your own user", what is the application you supposed?

11:18 <stellar-slack> <dzham> BYOU is this… You have an app, a use case, or whatnot. It’s based on Stellar. It used Stellar under the hood. The users have no idea though, and might never have an idea

11:19 <stellar-slack> <dzham> Reveal is one example that already used Stellar.

11:19 <stellar-slack> <lab> i assume it's typical application targeting regular people. p2p lending? sns?

11:20 <stellar-slack> <dzham> Could be anything… chain-of-custody between entities in a supply-chain

11:21 <stellar-slack> <lab> than entrepreneurs are facing to more border competitors.

11:22 <stellar-slack> <lab> to get "their own user", they need much more resource than individual fans.

11:23 <stellar-slack> <lab> then they have to seek funding, obviously it's almost impossible to meet another stellar fan investor.

11:24 <stellar-slack> <dzham> I just use it to mean a scenario where you don’t rely on the existing Stellar user base for your product

11:24 <stellar-slack> <lab> they will be challenged why use stellar, instead just a sql? and sometimes they are lucky to met blockchain believer investor

11:25 <stellar-slack> <lab> the suggest challenge will be why not bitcoin or ethereum.

11:26 <stellar-slack> <dzham> Ethereum in that case.. I still think bitcoin should stick with what it does best, act as digital cash. Everything else should go somewhere else.

11:26 <stellar-slack> <lab> sure.

11:28 <stellar-slack> <dzham> There’s a card game that’s running on Counterparty right now, they’re planning to add realtime gaming, and faster trading. Where did they go? Ethereum. Which doesn’t even have an exchange yet.

11:29 <stellar-slack> <lab> to say it in short, we need bootstrap the ecosystem first.

11:30 <stellar-slack> <dzham> Yes

11:31 <stellar-slack> <lab> it may be messy or dirty or anything.

11:31 <stellar-slack> <dzham> We have a couple of wallets, there are more coming. There’s no trading application as far as I’m aware.

11:32 <stellar-slack> <lab> but what i realized that sdf is trying making room clean, obviously the opposite way.

11:35 <stellar-slack> <lab> i didn't buy any words of ethereum and think they are boasting.

11:35 <stellar-slack> <lab> Sometimes childish

11:35 <stellar-slack> <dzham> They do have a thriving, successful ecosystem though

11:36 <stellar-slack> <dzham> People are building things like crazy

11:36 <stellar-slack> <lab> yes

11:36 <stellar-slack> <lab> i met people offline talking about cryptocurrency.

11:37 <stellar-slack> <dzham> Some of that is at a higher level of abstraction, since you can do quite advanced things with contracts

11:37 <stellar-slack> <lab> almost all new cryptocurrency guys are interested by ethereum.

11:38 <stellar-slack> <dzham> But even basic things like assets, and exchanges have to be written as contracts, since they aren't built into the system

11:38 <stellar-slack> <lab> they are have either senior tech background or fin backgroud

11:39 <stellar-slack> <lab> it's terrific.

11:39 <stellar-slack> <dzham> … because of smart contracts

11:39 <stellar-slack> <lab> because of marking

11:39 <stellar-slack> <lab> marketing

11:40 <stellar-slack> <dzham> What Ethereum did right, was to crowdfund. Everyone is invested. Everyone is committed.

11:40 <stellar-slack> <dzham> Whereas here, 6M users got their hand-out, 8000 stayed on

11:41 <stellar-slack> <dzham> Even then, it can be salvaged, but by supporting developers, rebuilding the ecosystem, bottom-up

11:41 <stellar-slack> <lab> the momentum difference is in magnitude

11:42 <stellar-slack> <lab> so i am deeply worried about stellar.

11:42 <stellar-slack> <lab> worrying

11:45 <stellar-slack> <lab> from my point of view , html/javascript is bad technical design too, even worse than ethereum.

11:45 <stellar-slack> <lab> but it wins.

11:49 <stellar-slack> <lab> dzham, i guess ledgercn or lobstr has only tens accounts.

11:58 <stellar-slack> <dzham> lobstr has created twenty new account in the most recent week

11:59 <stellar-slack> <dzham> `GA4JOGNSERBO2VZWZWZRKTR3WAS6Y7CE4HUXHXKDIMLLNJUOHRKN4M37`

11:59 <stellar-slack> <sacarlson> so lobstr wallet everyones money is in one account?

12:00 <stellar-slack> <dzham> no, but that’s the funding account

12:00 <stellar-slack> <sacarlson> oh IC

12:03 <stellar-slack> <lab> 360 precisely

12:04 <stellar-slack> <lab> 23 in ledgercn

12:05 <stellar-slack> <lab> just search "G" in address in contact of ledgercn

12:06 <stellar-slack> <dzham> can ledgercn import a seed, or you only create new accounts?

12:06 <stellar-slack> <lab> both supported

12:06 <stellar-slack> <eno> some people do not trust third party wallet service

12:10 <stellar-slack> <dzham> That’s a big problem if there’s no first party wallet

12:10 <stellar-slack> <lab> if they are your own user, it's not a problem

12:11 <stellar-slack> <lab> but why they need stellar? so you should provide services to peoples don't need lumens.

12:13 <stellar-slack> <lab> so what's the advance of stellar network, crossborder payment?

12:14 <stellar-slack> <lab> sorry no fiat gateway (for people don't need lumens they need fiat)

12:15 <stellar-slack> <lab> potential gateway owner: the user is too few to sustain.

12:18 <stellar-slack> <dzham> It would be really interesting to know how many users sit with XLM in exchanges. That’s potential users right there.

12:21 <stellar-slack> <lab> 持仓账户数(Accounts) 2965 持仓总币数(Total XLM) 306981805.58 人均持币(Average XLM per account) 103535.18

12:21 <stellar-slack> <lab> it's the open data from btc38

12:22 <stellar-slack> <lab> i think poloniex is about half of btc38.

12:26 <stellar-slack> <2667273151> I have every exchange account

12:56 <stellar-slack> <dzham> Poloniex is about the same as BTC38 if my numbers are correct

16:27 <stellar-slack> <john> 306M sitting on BTC38? Man! Have they set a inflation dest?

17:02 <stellar-slack> <2667273151> Has been proposed yesterday, waiting for inspection now.

17:18 <stellar-slack> <2667273151> But the efficiency of 38 platform make me worry.

17:21 <stellar-slack> <eno> and the tech guys have not enough time(or something) to deeply learn concept of stellar.

17:38 <stellar-slack> <2667273151> http://sacarlson.github.io/pool_status_rc.html I have proposed them to join directly.

21:51 <stellar-slack> <heunland> Hi anyone here can answer a question about a failed TX?

21:52 <stellar-slack> <eva> Hi @heunland, you should ask in the #dev channel here - go to the left column, click the “plus” sign, and join #dev :)

21:52 <stellar-slack> <heunland> thanks

23:46 <stellar-slack> <john> *UNICEF Innovation Fund to invest in open source technology start-ups!* UNICEF’s Innovation Fund, which has raised $9 million so far, offers innovators in developing countries a pooled funding mechanism to help them take their tested projects to the next stage. The fund focuses its investments on three portfolio areas: • Products for youth under 25 to address a range of needs including learning and youth parti

23:46 <stellar-slack> decision-making; and • Infrastructure to increase access to services and information, including connectivity, power, finance, sensors and transport.